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Nickelless
Administrator
USA
5580 Posts |
 Posted - 07/14/2008 : 12:12:48
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I need help responding (as a Christian myself) to a friend who sent me this message after I referred him to Coinflation and mentioned that I am collecting copper pennies:
quote:
Thanks for the information, but I have a conflict with this one. Since defacing money is a federal violation aren't you supporting an illegal act?
On the one hand you are correct in that old copper pennies are worth more in copper than as money. On the other hand, to take advantage of that, you have to break the law or pass the coins to someone that is going too. That is my dilema - do I knowingly break a federal law for money? Can I still call that a Christian act? I guess if I can find someplace that takes them for more than the value in the current condition, I can say to myself, I didn't violate the law even if I know the buyer is about too.. Then again?
Here is a great read
You must be logged in to see this link.
I don't know for absolutely certain what each buyer intends to do with the pennies I sell them, but I think it's pretty clear that each one of us is looking way past the melt ban to the point when hyperinflation will leave ONLY the metal value. But I'm still not sure how to reply to this post from a moral perspective. Thoughts?
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Visit my new preparedness site: Preparedness.cc/SurvivalPrep.net
--Latest article: Stocking up on spices to keep food preps lively
---------------
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Are you ready spiritually for hard times? http://www.jesusfreak.com/rapture.asp |
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NDFARMER
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1197 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 12:29:59
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| I guess I would say that you have no responsibility for what the person does with the coins once you sell them to him. Unless maybe you sell them to a scrap dealer that you know is going to melt them. But if you sell them to someone on Ebay or someone on this board that wants them for their metal value to have WTSHTF or to have because a lot of coins are over 40 years old and some do have some numismatic value. I do not see anything immoral about that. |
COPPER - the "poormans" precious metal!!!
SELLING - $100.00 face copper shipped to you for $189.00 machine rolled or bagged - PM me if your interested. |
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horgad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1641 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 12:36:46
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The bottom line is the Feds steal from you everyday by making the currency of the land FIAT and by spending money that they don't have. So all you are doing by hoarding copper pennies, is trying to take back what was stolen from you and trying to prevent future thefts.
The tricky part is that only a few will attempt to take back what was taken from them, yet everybody has been robbed. So, to be a 100% percent ethical you might have to distribute some of your "gain" to those that have less insight into how things work or at the very least try to give them a free education so they have equal opportunity to defend themselves from the crooks.
As such, I freely share my penny knowledge with everybody that will listen. IMHO, the copper penny pool should remain fair game for everyone since everyone has been stolen from.
So, tell your friend that he needs to give a sermon on penny hoarding next Sunday to give fair warning and opportunity to his peers and then he can begin hoarding guilt free. 
Or I guess the boiled down questions are
1. Is it ethical to steal from crooks? (Is it even stealing or is it simply recovering what is yours?)
2. And if yes that sounds OK, is it still OK to steal from crooks when part of what you are stealing might belong to some other victim and not you?
By the way, your friend made a huge logic mistake when he assumed that the laws of man and the laws of God are the same (again IMHO). He thinks God will be mad if he breaks an unethical law of man? If you agree that 1 and 2 above or OK ethically, then the next thing might be to consider how ethical the melt ban is. Perhaps it is just an attempt by the crooks to prevent the victims from taking back a small, small part of what was stolen from them?
In any case, there is no point in breaking the law. The risk/reward ratio is just not in the favor of a melter (defacer)...at least not yet. 
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Edited by - horgad on 07/14/2008 12:43:06 |
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Nickelless
Administrator
USA
5580 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 12:39:49
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quote:
Originally posted by NDFARMER
I guess I would say that you have no responsibility for what the person does with the coins once you sell them to him. Unless maybe you sell them to a scrap dealer that you know is going to melt them. But if you sell them to someone on Ebay or someone on this board that wants them for their metal value to have WTSHTF or to have because a lot of coins are over 40 years old and some do have some numismatic value. I do not see anything immoral about that.
Let's operate on the assumption that we know that the buyer will probably melt down the coins at some point. Is it moral to respect pennies as currency per se if they become worthless as currency? Granted, this person is looking at the current laws on the books so I'd like to address that, since that's the real issue. All of us on here are looking very long-term, but that's not where this guy is at right now. How do I get over the objection that because melting is illegal (under man's law) right now that this is wrong? |
Visit my new preparedness site: Preparedness.cc/SurvivalPrep.net
--Latest article: Stocking up on spices to keep food preps lively
---------------
Be prepared...and prepared to help: http://www.survivalblog.com/charity.html
Are you ready spiritually for hard times? http://www.jesusfreak.com/rapture.asp |
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Lemon Thrower
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1588 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 12:45:11
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first, coins of a reliable mint should always have more value as coins then as melted bullion. this is becuase there is a value to having a uniform weight, size, and metal content. U.S. Liberty dollars carry a $1-$2 premium over their silver content.
similarly, even if we have hyperinflation, that does not mean pennies will be melted. Pre-65 silver coins have a value more than 13X FV wihout being melted, and melting will not increase that value.
Finally, I see nothing immoral about breaking the melting ban. Illegal, yes, immoral, no. Does your friend find it immoral to drive 1 mph over the speed limit, or to roll through a stop sign? |
Buying:
Peace/Morgan G+ at $15.00
copper cents at 1.3X
wheat pennies at 3X
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Edited by - Lemon Thrower on 07/14/2008 12:51:14 |
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horgad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1641 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 12:51:04
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"How do I get over the objection that because melting is illegal (under man's law) right now that this is wrong?"
Start by asking him "if there was an unethical law would he follow it?" Then ask him if he thinks he is capable of making 100% right decisions on which laws are ethical and which ones are not. Then ask him if he feels like he has the right to judge others who have decided for themselves that a debatable law is unethical. In other words since the right/wrongness of the law is unclear he can avoid the guilt by not melting himself, but still sell to somebody who has made their own judgment. This is OK because he knows that he is no position to judge such an iffy law and a law that has no or very little relationship to Christian ethics. |
Edited by - horgad on 07/14/2008 12:52:00 |
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Lemon Thrower
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1588 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 13:01:15
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| btw, what does hoarding pennies have to do with defacing pennies or melting them? as far as i know, there is no law against owning pennies, only against defacing them, melting them, and exporting them. |
Buying:
Peace/Morgan G+ at $15.00
copper cents at 1.3X
wheat pennies at 3X
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Nickelless
Administrator
USA
5580 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 13:07:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Lemon Thrower
btw, what does hoarding pennies have to do with defacing pennies or melting them? as far as i know, there is no law against owning pennies, only against defacing them, melting them, and exporting them.
Let's assume that I sell the pennies to someone knowing full well that they plan to melt them down. Am I therefore a criminal for aiding and abetting in violating federal law? Does it matter right now that at some point fiat coinage will be inherently worthless as currency yet I'm violating the law right now? I think the much bigger moral objection is to the fiat system that will leave millions of people on the brink of disaster in the near future, but that doesn't answer the objection at hand, that melting is currently illegal and that by selling coins to someone who will melt them down, I am contributing to the breaking of man's law. |
Visit my new preparedness site: Preparedness.cc/SurvivalPrep.net
--Latest article: Stocking up on spices to keep food preps lively
---------------
Be prepared...and prepared to help: http://www.survivalblog.com/charity.html
Are you ready spiritually for hard times? http://www.jesusfreak.com/rapture.asp |
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kavajava
Penny Collector Member
USA
490 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 13:17:47
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Nickelless: from a Christian perspective, and as one who believes that the Bible is the word of God and should therefore be obeyed, I think one of the most relevant Bible verses is found in 1 Peter 2:13: "Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake..."
From this we can see that we should obey the law. (Of course, there are times when you are called upon to break the law and Scripture supports this as well, we are not to blindly obey all laws if they contradict God's law). For now, though, let's just assume that it is a valid law that you should not deface coins for the purpose of fraud (see another post that explains why it is OK to make elongated pennies, etc.--not sure where it is, but it is one of tmaring's posts), and that it is a valid law that you should not melt them.
Therefore, your friend is right that you, he, I, and anyone else subject to the laws of the U.S. should not melt them.
His argument falls apart though, when he assumes that everyone is going to melt them. I have no plans to melt them, and I bet that most here on the forum do not--why bother? As one person wrote once, the copper is in nice little disks and is easily bartered, etc. Why go to the trouble? The fact is that the metal in the coin is worth more than the face value of the coin, so I save it.
Further, look at "junk silver": it is legal to melt and most do not--it is a simple unit of trade. It can be melted and sometimes it is legally melted.
Also, it is the official position of this forum that melting is not encouraged and all members should obey the current laws. I would actually be surprised if I found out that more than just a couple of folks here are melting pennies (maybe I am just naive--I don't know).
Someday it will probably be legal to melt again--at that point more people may melt, more people may not. At that point there will probably be a higher demand for copper pennies and their trade value will more closely approach the intrinsic metal value. Most on this forum are looking forward to that day.
At the risk of opening up a can of worms, when I taught this passage in Sunday School recently, my admonition to the class was that speeding is actually a violation of God's law, which I believe it is...you may ask your friend where he stands on that issue.
Caveat: it is often dangerous to just pick one verse and use it as a "proof text"...we must be careful to ensure that our interpretation is consistent with the entire Bible. This is again why we do not just blindly obey all laws that are made, without ensuring that they are ethical.
2nd caveat: this of course raises the issue of civil disobedience, and when laws can and should be disobeyed...I am sure many of us could come up with all sorts of reasons why such and such a law we don't like should be ignored, and some of us probably have valid concerns about our current government--but we need to be cautious when we consider disobeying a law.
Hope this helps and at least partially answers your question--let me know.
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Kurr
1000+ Penny Miser Member
2906 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 13:22:17
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You do not know their intent. Nor can you see the future. If the person bought them to melt, then in 5 years learned of the true value and horded some and sold some for numismatic value, is he a criminal for intent of an action NOT-carried out? Nope.
If you knowingly sell to a melter, then you are a criminal under mans law, as an accessory. But since you did not violate the rights of another man, nor another's property(your labor was traded for the coin, you own it.) you would not have violated gods law.
I sell under the assumption that it will be saved, as is legal, or used for collectors value, if you even hint that you will violate the law, deals off. My conscience is clear.
Plus not everyone has a vacuum arc furnace! And the law as I understand it, melting is not defacing, defacing is for intent to fraud.
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The silver [is] mine, and the gold [is] mine, saith the LORD of hosts. Hag 2:8 [/b]
He created it. He controls it. He gave it to us for His use. Why did we turn from sound scriptural currency that PROTECTS us?
KJV Bible w/ Strong's Concordance: http://www.blueletterbible.org/
The book of The Hundreds: http://www.land.netonecom.net/tlp/ref/boh/bookOfTheHundreds_v4.1.pdf
The Two Republics: http://www.whitehorsemedia.com/docs/THE_TWO_REPUBLICS.pdf
Good reading: http://ecclesia.org/truth/government.html
A number of people are educated beyond, sometimes way beyond, their intelligence. - Tenbears
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Edited by - Kurr on 07/14/2008 13:23:53 |
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kavajava
Penny Collector Member
USA
490 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 13:23:10
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| Looks like several posts were made while I was composing my lengthly reply, and they brought up many of the same points--sorry for any overlap. |
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kavajava
Penny Collector Member
USA
490 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 13:25:57
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| Yeah--I also have to agree with Kurr that you should not knowingly sell to a melter. I think it is best to assume that the person you are selling to is going to obey the law--but don't just turn a blind eye and if as he says there is even a hint, the deals off. |
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 13:32:54
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I see no moral dilemna. Coinflation and this site are my 2 favorite sites. As far as I know, neither advocates the melting of pennies. This site even has a disclaimer stating that we do not encourage the violation of the melting ban. I am with Lemon Thrower on this. Why would you want to melt them when you have a government issued round of known weight and fineness? As long as they are kept in their original form they trade by the unit and there are no legal or ethical problems.
For your friend, the best answer for him would be for him to convert as many copper pennies as he can into a greater amount of fiat and place the entire amount in the collection plate so the church can do good works with it. Let the pennies multiply, and feed the masses. Tell him to get busy sorting, 'cause idle hands do the devil's work.  |
If your percentages are low.. just sort more. If your percentages are high.. just sort more.
Now selling Copper pennies. 1.6x plus shipping. Limited amounts available. |
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jadedragon
Administrator
Canada
3788 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 13:36:32
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I am also a Christian but I don't buy the “defacing currency” argument put forward.
I see no need to "judge the system" to justify collecting coins. I will never melt a coin against a law and I will not participate in knowingly supplying someone who will melt against a law.
I am using my coins for exactly their intended purpose - a government backed medium of exchange. I trade my coins for other items of value - silver, collectable coins, foreign currency etc, largely as the government intended. It is really not a problem that my buyers/trading partners are willing to send me silver or other types of currency for coins of less face value then they might sell to me for face value of dollar bills. In a small way, I am a currency/precious/commodity metal trader and speculator. As the linked article suggests we will be trading the commodity in its current form (a coin). No need to melt a penny ever.
I believe the main reason penny prices are not yet trading at the true commodity value is that they are still readily available at the bank for a penny. Once the sources of Cu pennies at face dry up (or nearly so) the value will more closely approximate the commodity value, just like silver coins do now. |
“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” – George Bernard Shaw.
Why Copper Bullion ~~~ Interview with Silver Bullion Producer Market Harmony
Passive Income blog |
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jadedragon
Administrator
Canada
3788 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 13:45:37
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And I might add that I can happily melt all the American pennies I find here in Canada - and there is NO law against that. Americans or anyone else can happily melt all the Canadian pennies they find or import into the US or elsewhere too. I can also export Canadian coin by the tractor trailer load any where I want as long as I fill out currency declaration forms at the border correctly.
Until the US Penny/nickel melt ban, there was no crime in melting those coins either. In fact people like Jackson Metals were melting openly. And the melt ban is only a temporary measure for sure - it will become pointless when the copper is hoarded out and enough new steel nickels are introduced to facilitate commerce. |
“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” – George Bernard Shaw.
Why Copper Bullion ~~~ Interview with Silver Bullion Producer Market Harmony
Passive Income blog |
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horgad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1641 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 14:55:09
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quote:
Originally posted by legacypac
...And the melt ban is only a temporary measure for sure - it will become pointless when the copper is hoarded out and enough new steel nickels are introduced to facilitate commerce.
One fear I have about the melt ban is that it may be left in place long after all of the coppers have been taken out of circulation. Why? - To protect the zinc pennies and then later to protect the steel pennies.
So the ultimate hope for the melt ban going away soon rests on the hope that the penny will be killed altogether. |
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Bluegill
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1964 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 15:06:05
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Hmmm. Last time I looked we a are a nation of the People by the People for the People. These pennies were manufactured by the People's tax money. The way I see it, they belong to us, the People. Not some mystical entity called the "government". I paid for it, I didn't steal it, it is mine to with as I please. How moral, ethical or legal is it that this "government" can debase a currency so severely that we are even having this conversation? That is outright theft of the People's earned wealth... How moral, ethical or legal is that?
I have no desire to ever melt my hoard (it makes no sense at all). But if I sell them to someone who wants to, that is their business.
Not selling to someone you suspect, or even know might want to melt them is passing judgment. How christian is that? The next day the "government" says it is ok to melt pennies, you going to call the individual back up and say you can morally sell to them now? What changed..? Some corrupt immoral and unethical thief changed the wording of a law... Morality can be turned on and off just like that...
If the immoral and unethical make immoral and unethical laws, is it immoral and unethical to disobey said laws..?
Not trying to offend anyone but the OP asked for "thoughts"...  And my thoughts can get as twisted as they come. 
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Lemon Thrower
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1588 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 15:07:08
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| I suspect your friend wrongly assumed that the only way copper coins have a value above face is if they are melted. When I buy silver coins I gladly pay a premium for rounds that were minted by the US government because I know their metal content is thought to be uniform. |
Buying:
Peace/Morgan G+ at $15.00
copper cents at 1.3X
wheat pennies at 3X
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horgad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1641 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 16:00:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Bluegill
Hmmm. Last time I looked we a are a nation of the People by the People for the People. These pennies were manufactured by the People's tax money. The way I see it, they belong to us, the People. Not some mystical entity called the "government". I paid for it, I didn't steal it, it is mine to with as I please. How moral, ethical or legal is it that this "government" can debase a currency so severely that we are even having this conversation? That is outright theft of the People's earned wealth... How moral, ethical or legal is that?
I have no desire to ever melt my hoard (it makes no sense at all). But if I sell them to someone who wants to, that is their business.
Not selling to someone you suspect, or even know might want to melt them is passing judgment. How christian is that? The next day the "government" says it is ok to melt pennies, you going to call the individual back up and say you can morally sell to them now? What changed..? Some corrupt immoral and unethical thief changed the wording of a law... Morality can be turned on and off just like that...
If the immoral and unethical make immoral and unethical laws, is it immoral and unethical to disobey said laws..?
Not trying to offend anyone but the OP asked for "thoughts"... And my thoughts can get as twisted as they come.
Good points. Also if I am not mistaken, FIAT money goes against the bible and the constitution and those that use it do so to. Ethics, other people's ethics, laws of men, more laws of men, laws of God, more laws of God, etc. all add up to too many contradictions and too little time to sort them all out.
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Edited by - horgad on 07/14/2008 16:01:28 |
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fb101
Administrator
USA
2856 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 19:51:51
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I also had to think about it, but I don't see a moral dilemma. The precedent has been established by the govt. that allows the melting of obsolete coinage, ie; silver half dollars.
They tolerate and allow it and allow businesses to thrive without restraint.
This will be the same when copper pennies are no longer a significant circulating coinage, and the melt ban will be lifted. When that ban is lifted it is an explicit permission to melt the coins. Provided the person you sell to follows the law, neither they, nor you have broken a law.
You cannot possibly know when they will melt, but I put a disclaimer on my auction pages stating that currently melting is illegal. I believe that is sufficient to relieve me of any moral obligation, as long as there is a reasonable anticipation that a time will come when this will all be legal. |
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tmaring
Penny Collector Member
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 20:26:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Nickelless
I need help responding (as a Christian myself) to a friend who sent me this message after I referred him to Coinflation and mentioned that I am collecting copper pennies:quote:
... Since defacing money is a federal violation aren't you supporting an illegal act?
Lets just set melting aside, since there are very few ways in which small-time melting can even be worth the furnace fuel. Your friend specifically mentioned 'defacing'. The defacement rule is widely misunderstood. The law reads "DEFACEMENT WITH INTENT TO DEFRAUD". The key message here is in the words "intent to defraud". What they were specifically targeting was people who would trim pennies to dime size to use in vending machines... or gold plate Liberty nickels to look like $5 gold pieces. THAT is defacement with intent to defraud. If you add an "s" mintmark to a 1909 VDB penny in order to try to sell it to a collector... THAT is defacement with intent to defraud. To apply counterstampings or overstrikings to existing coins to promote a political ideal or to acknowledge their metal content as superior to their monetary content... that is simply the creation of a "coin novelty". Such activity is NOT fraudulent in any way whatsoever and is completely protected not only by common sense civil liberties but by both the letter and spirit of the law. In fact, you can find machines at many amusement parks and museums that exist only for the purpose of impressing pennies with a new design. It is inconceivable that any possible interpretation of Christian morality could make this wrong. |
Tom Maringer
Shire Post Mint
Springdale, Arkansas |
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knibloe
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1066 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 20:59:29
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I often agree with Horgrad, but not this time. Yes, the gov does mess with our currency and therefore our freedom and lives. However, two wrongs do not make a right. If I wanted to melt pennies (which I do not) I could petition the gov or sue them and let the courts decide.
Ethically, we as Christians are obligated to follow the law. If you know that your buyer is melting, find another buyer. There are many on this site who would gladly purchase. As far as your friend, it seems that he is a little judgemental. As said above, most of us collect for legal reasons and this is a fun and honerable pastime/business. |
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kieblera5
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
859 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 21:28:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Nickelless
I need help responding (as a Christian myself) to a friend who sent me this message after I referred him to Coinflation and mentioned that I am collecting copper pennies:
quote:
Thanks for the information, but I have a conflict with this one. Since defacing money is a federal violation aren't you supporting an illegal act?
On the one hand you are correct in that old copper pennies are worth more in copper than as money. On the other hand, to take advantage of that, you have to break the law or pass the coins to someone that is going too. That is my dilema - do I knowingly break a federal law for money? Can I still call that a Christian act? I guess if I can find someplace that takes them for more than the value in the current condition, I can say to myself, I didn't violate the law even if I know the buyer is about too.. Then again?
Here is a great read
You must be logged in to see this link.
I don't know for absolutely certain what each buyer intends to do with the pennies I sell them, but I think it's pretty clear that each one of us is looking way past the melt ban to the point when hyperinflation will leave ONLY the metal value. But I'm still not sure how to reply to this post from a moral perspective. Thoughts?
About taking advantage of the value of the copper is not immoral. The goverment knows how much those pennies are worth, and it is common knowledge that copper pennies are worth more than face. Do a google search and you'll find plenty of sources. |
Democracy is being allowed to vote for the candidate you dislike least.
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and then beat you mercilessly with experience.
Caller number seven gets the Peace Prize!
Get coding tips, tricks, and more at: http://codingmonday.blogspot.com |
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swusc
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
553 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 22:22:45
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I really don't see a problem with selling them to someone.
Are you helping them break a law, which would also be a sin (since you have to follow man's authority that has been placed over you)? Good question.
If you know they are going to melt them, then I would say it would be wrong to sell them to him/her.
If you don't know they are going to melt them, then I don't think their is a problem. Just because someone is buying them above face doesn't mean they are going to melt them. They have other uses other than raw copper.
If you sell someone a car and they speed with it, then are you sinning by aiding them? Well you didn't make them speed and they could use the car without speeding. They likely need the car to get to work, stores, and etc. I don't see how you are responsible for their actions after the sell.
I think based on my understanding... you are responsible for obey God's law, Man's law, and doing your part to be your brother's keeper. I don't think being their keeper means you are responsible for everything they do, but you should watch out for them and not help them do wrong.
-SWUSC |
`Everybody is ignorant. Only on different subjects.' Will Rogers
"This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the "hidden" confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists' antagonism toward the gold standard." Alan Greenspan, 1966. |
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Nickelless
Administrator
USA
5580 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2008 : 23:23:51
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quote:
Originally posted by HoardCopperByTheTon
IWhy would you want to melt them when you have a government issued round of known weight and fineness?
I think you've hit the penny on the obverse side, Hoard. It would be ludicrous to assume anyone would melt them down given that the weight and composition are well-documented and easy to prove to any other prospective buyer down the line. You could make a similar distinction between people recognizing that pre-1965 silver coins carry an obvious and justified premium over their clad counterparts.
quote:
Originally posted by legacypac
I am using my coins for exactly their intended purpose - a government backed medium of exchange. I trade my coins for other items of value - silver, collectable coins, foreign currency etc, largely as the government intended. It is really not a problem that my buyers/trading partners are willing to send me silver or other types of currency for coins of less face value then they might sell to me for face value of dollar bills. In a small way, I am a currency/precious/commodity metal trader and speculator. As the linked article suggests we will be trading the commodity in its current form (a coin). No need to melt a penny ever.
I believe the main reason penny prices are not yet trading at the true commodity value is that they are still readily available at the bank for a penny. Once the sources of Cu pennies at face dry up (or nearly so) the value will more closely approximate the commodity value, just like silver coins do now.
Ditto Legacypac
quote:
Originally posted by Lemon Thrower
I suspect your friend wrongly assumed that the only way copper coins have a value above face is if they are melted. When I buy silver coins I gladly pay a premium for rounds that were minted by the US government because I know their metal content is thought to be uniform.
Ditto Lemon Thrower
quote:
Originally posted by horgad
Also if I am not mistaken, FIAT money goes against the bible and the constitution and those that use it do so to. Ethics, other people's ethics, laws of men, more laws of men, laws of God, more laws of God, etc. all add up to too many contradictions and too little time to sort them all out.
As I think you and I talked about on my trip to Indy, Horgad, I'm hoping to use at least part of my hoard to help provide a means of exchange to benefit others as the dollar's death spiral accelerates. It would be immoral--both personally and, IMO, on the part of the government--to give people something that is inherently worthless, which is why all of us on here are collecting copper pennies to begin with, so that we will have something that has inherent value after the dollar dies.
quote:
Originally posted by knibloe
I often agree with Horgrad, but not this time. Yes, the gov does mess with our currency and therefore our freedom and lives. However, two wrongs do not make a right. If I wanted to melt pennies (which I do not) I could petition the gov or sue them and let the courts decide.
Ethically, we as Christians are obligated to follow the law. If you know that your buyer is melting, find another buyer. There are many on this site who would gladly purchase. As far as your friend, it seems that he is a little judgemental. As said above, most of us collect for legal reasons and this is a fun and honerable pastime/business.
Was it morally wrong for benevolent Germans to shelter Jews during Hitler's madness to keep them from being killed? Was it wrong for enslaved blacks to flee their masters before the Emancipation Proclamation? I don't think the analogy is too extreme, because millions in this country are going to be starving and destitute after the dollar's final fall--and I think it's safe to say that the U.S. will have a harder fall than any other country we've yet seen in history because of the extent of our dollar-based wealth. Is government decree to be respected above human life? |
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PennyProspector
Penny Pincher Member
USA
212 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2008 : 00:41:49
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WOW!!!!
It is amazing how many post we get by throwing in Christs name!!!
As mentioned b4 Collecting/Hoarding until you have the opportunity to sell is not against the law (ok not yet)
I cant speak for other Christians (only for my own relationship with my god) but.... I really dont believe that god cares all that much with what happens to the penny, Now.... the Federal goverment sure does but IMHU as long as I'm not melting them down to make Idols I feel I'm OK!
If it would help your friend out.... Maybe he could donate his Zink cents to the church!!!(this would make a Awsome Dump Location & Some Good could come from his labor)
The bottom line not everyone will support this hobby... or any hobby for that fact. You sould do it if you enjoy it and know that many more people are going to say that you are crazy than are going to say you are going to burn in hell! lol
but very few (only the smart ones) are going to join in!
Amen! |
Happy Prospecting! |
Edited by - PennyProspector on 07/15/2008 00:50:08 |
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Answering moral objections to "defacing" Cu cents
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