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knibloe
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1066 Posts |
 Posted - 07/15/2008 : 13:26:02
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quote:
Originally posted by knibloe
I often agree with Horgrad, but not this time. Yes, the gov does mess with our currency and therefore our freedom and lives. However, two wrongs do not make a right. If I wanted to melt pennies (which I do not) I could petition the gov or sue them and let the courts decide.
Ethically, we as Christians are obligated to follow the law. If you know that your buyer is melting, find another buyer. There are many on this site who would gladly purchase. As far as your friend, it seems that he is a little judgemental. As said above, most of us collect for legal reasons and this is a fun and honerable pastime/business.
Was it morally wrong for benevolent Germans to shelter Jews during Hitler's madness to keep them from being killed? Was it wrong for enslaved blacks to flee their masters before the Emancipation Proclamation? I don't think the analogy is too extreme, because millions in this country are going to be starving and destitute after the dollar's final fall--and I think it's safe to say that the U.S. will have a harder fall than any other country we've yet seen in history because of the extent of our dollar-based wealth. Is government decree to be respected above human life?
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Nickelless,
I am not sure how much of what you wrote above was meant as a reply to my post,and how much was meant to everyone in general. I believe that you are taking it to an extreme. Of course, no one will be held accountable for breaking the law in the holocost and slavery situations that you mention above. There are some laws and governments that are just plain evil. The melt ban is not evil, it harms no one, and as such should be honored.
For you to suggest that if you do not hoard pennies Americans will starve is off kilter. How will your hoarding pennies feed anyone other than yourself? If you are worried about people starving than hoard food.
If you do not hoard them to "preserve wealth" as you imply will they suddenly disappear with SHF? NO, they will still be out there in the hands of average Americans. If you sell pennies to a melter, they will likely be exported to China. If the melt ban is lifted billions of copper pennies will be melted and sold to China for fiat dollars. Both these scenarios destroy true American wealth and put more people at risk of starving and becoming destitute. If you look at it that way, than maybe the melt ban is a good thing.
Bottom line: We should obey the law as long as it does not harm someone else. We should also, not facillite others when they break the law. There are many ways of hoarding pennies which do not break the law, nor encourage others to do so. Therefore, there is nothing wrong with it. |
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TXTim
Penny Hoarding Member
629 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2008 : 07:57:40
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Looks like it's all a matter of a little ignorance on your friend's part - not in a bad way, just fact.
He should read this thread and be satisfied that you are not an outlaw, Nick! |
Beer is my currency. |
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Saul Mine
Penny Collector Member
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2008 : 10:59:45
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| That is a hypothetical question. In reality, almost nobody melts copper pennies. They either collect/hoard them or sell them to collectors/hoarders. In time the ban will be dropped and only fools will melt their pennies before that time. You are not responsible for the acts of fools. |
A penny sorted is a penny earned!
Please use tinyurl.com to post links. Long links make posts hard to read. |
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Nickelless
Administrator
USA
5580 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2008 : 18:43:59
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Here's the reply I sent:
To fill you in a bit on what I'm guessing you're referring to about melting coins. The term "melt value" is commonly used among collectors of precious metals (especially in coin form), but that doesn't mean that collectors actually melt them. "Metal value" would probably be a better term to use among non-collectors. The deal with people collecting or hoarding copper pennies has more to do with the inherent value of the metal itself as a commodity, just as there's a premium price on pre-1965 dimes, quarters, half dollars and dollars because those coins are 90 percent silver, more inherently valuable than the coins since 1965 that are just a copper/nickel alloy. Nobody I know would advocate actually melting coins for their silver or copper content because the composition and weight of the coins are standardized and universally recognized for what they are--nobody would have to tell anyone that pre-1982 pennies are 95 percent copper, because it's already a well-known fact. :-)
The talk right now in penny-collecting circles is that as the dollar loses ground as currency, having no tangible assets to back it up, copper pennies (and possibly nickels as well, since they are 75 percent copper and worth about 120 percent of their face value in metal) might gain a more premium value as a method of payment because of those coins inherent worth, just as gold and silver (and copper too, for that matter) have been used as currency for thousands of years.
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I'll let you guys know what reply I get. |
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Edited by - Nickelless on 07/16/2008 18:46:54 |
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jadedragon
Administrator
Canada
3788 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2008 : 20:46:02
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| I like how you said "penny-collecting circles" or was that "collecting circles of copper" or perhaps circular penny collectors". Whatever... good response. Not even an argument about the morality since there is really no moral question with collecting coins. |
“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” – George Bernard Shaw.
Why Copper Bullion ~~~ Interview with Silver Bullion Producer Market Harmony
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Cody8404
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
602 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2008 : 20:55:37
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For me personally, I see this as a store of wealth. So far I have collected cents just for myself. I have not sold any and at this point I don’t plan to.
I see copper cents as a store of wealth just like silver, can’t afford gold. If I buy and sell it using dollars then I see that as a fair trade.
For much of history silver, gold and copper were kept in forms that could easily be identified. If I make my own silver dinnerware then everyone who sees it and uses it will know it is mine. It is a good store of wealth. It is not easily traded because it brings up how pure is it and do I trust you with how much silver is really in the silverware. In Mexico still today they will melt junk silver coins and use it to make jewelry because they know the silver content is true.
Even today it is legal to take a cent and two quarters and run them through a machine that changes the cent into a flat cent. This is legal.
My second argument gets back to the value of the metal. When the US started minting coins any citizen could take their gold and silver to the mint and the mint would change it into coins, at no cost.
Today I go to the bank and get a quarter with a metal value of $0.05. I am paying $0.25 for and item worth only one fifth of its face value. The official term is signorage, theft would be a better term. So if I get a quarter and loose 20 cents and get a cent worth three cents I am still on the loosing end. Every bill I use is worth many times less than face value. This is truly against the bibles direction to use just weights and measures.
When the small copper cent was developed it was placed in use because it was small and worth so much less than a cent. Today the value of the dollar has fallen so much and no longer reflects just weights, the dollar was over 3/4 of an ounce of silver. And the cent was 1/100 of a dollar.
If I choose to keep a little silver and copper around me instead of paper or quarters I do not see myself as stealing from the government or the people. I see myself as try to protect myself before the dollar drops even further and gets further from the truths of the Bible and the U.S. Constitution.
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Awake, O kings of the earth! Come ye, O, come ye, with your gold and your silver, to the help of my people, to the house of the daughters of Zion, to the help of the people of the God of this Land even Jesus Christ. |
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knibloe
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1066 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2008 : 14:12:08
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Nickelless,
Very well worded and well thought out.
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Nickelless
Administrator
USA
5580 Posts |
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silverhalide
Penny Sorter Member
92 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2008 : 11:23:28
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What moral obligation? Do you think the government has fulfilled its moral obligation to preserve the spending power of our currency and the living standards of its people and tell me who is the one being "sacreligious".
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n/a
deleted
54 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2008 : 11:22:30
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| Defacing coinage.... Interesting topic. I am first and foremost an Elongated Coin roller, copper hoarder secondary. Yes, it is legal to still roll coins through my machines. Some might call it defacing, I don't. Whatever I miss-roll, I send back to the mint these days (when I get a coffee can full). I don't keep the bad rolls for copper value, and it is currently illegal to melt (even the bad rolls). However, I do prefer to destroy the off center or short rolls on the elongated coins, even before I send them to the mint, I cut them in half. Its funny, the mint accepts them open armed. For those of you who wonder why I don't keep the bad rolls for the copper value, its because I don't want my work confused with the inferior pieces that I toss out, in case they somehow get out and sold. |
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Answering moral objections to "defacing" Cu cents
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