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starwarsgeek171
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
651 Posts |
 Posted - 01/20/2008 : 02:50:09
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I've noticed that most coins seem to be overgraded.  This applies even to PCGS, NGC, etc... Am I just too picky?
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fiatboy
Administrator
912 Posts |
 Posted - 01/20/2008 : 03:01:19
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| Gradeflation is the albatross of the coin market. It's rampant and it's reached the point that now there are companies that grade the graders. The older slabbed coins of a certain grade are preferred to the newer ones of the same grade, which undermines the very concept of standardization. Remember, a grade of 70 used to be a hypothetical grade. Now it's ubiquitous. |
"Bart, it's not about how many stocks you have, it's about how much copper wire you can get out of the building." --- Homer Simpson |
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copperbullion
Penny Pincher Member
Australia
136 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2008 : 04:25:25
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| I agree about over grading! It's rife in the industry. Also have you noticed how dealers never grade the coin the same... especially when buying and selling. Low grade when selling... High grade when buying... This is one of the reasons I started to look at things that hold their value and have a set daily price... like Copper, Silver and Gold |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2008 : 12:08:29
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What is needed is to take coin grading to the digital age, i.e. a software program to work with a scanner to determine the true status of a coin, have a complete breakdown or point by point explanation as to why a coin is MS 60 instead of MS 65 (exactly where the wear is, the slight marks or blemishes on the coin, etc.) and install a thumb drive to the plastic coin holder that can be plugged into a computer with all of the coin's atturbites on said thumb drive.
If you are going to spend so much on slabbed coins you might as well spend for the digital appraisal too. (as time goes on, the thumb drives fall in price, I have seen 256 meg dirves for $10, given enough time they could go to $3-$4)
As a side note, I overheard a coin dealer tell a customer the MS 65 doesn't mean much for the US Silver Eagles since they get slabbed in the mint as proofs or as soon as they get into customer's hands. The status of coin grade doesn't carry the same weight for newer coins as compared to coins from the 1960s when coins were either proof, uncirculated or Abuot uncirculated. |
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starwarsgeek171
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
651 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2008 : 13:28:18
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| I bought my son a 1996 lower-mintage Silver American Eagle (PCGS MS69 for $100). He was not very impressed, and spotted a flaw instantly! I'm starting to think I should consider all graded coins to be at least one grading level below what is claimed on the slab. I really like the standardized computer grading idea. It seems to have many potential benefits. |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2008 : 14:20:16
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This idea would work best for silver & gold coins graded AU50 and up.
Things needed for such a system-
One of each of a definite grade of one type of coin,
i.e. one MS70 or proof silver dollar, one MS65 silver dollar, one AU55 silver dollar one AU 50 silver dollar
all the way down to Fine. Skip good grades since they will sell for bullion value over numismatic value unless it is a scarce date.
Also needed:
Some sort of analysis software to determine one image from another, i.e. compare the fine wear on one coin compared to the saved image of the MS60. This is the tough part, getting software able to determine the differences between two images AND at a cheap enough price to make the idea affordable to coin collectors.
Also needed:
Some sort of software to enlarge the image of stored graded coins to 5X size and can enlarge scanned in coin 5X size
(larger sizes if needed) without a loss of image quality.
Maybe there is an off-the-shelf art or photo software that can do all this. Any ideas forum members? |
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2008 : 16:32:18
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| Manual grading is so subjective that I don't get involved with it. Like Fiatboy said, one grade when you buy, another when you sell. I don't mind a dealer making a profit on the spread, but not that way. |
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Think positive. |
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2008 : 18:29:42
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You should learn to grade for yourself.. if you are going to be buying lots of coins it is an invaluable skill to have. Always buy for yourself.. don't worry about what grade others want to assign to the coin.
The nice thing about bullion coins is that the grade really doesn't matter all that much.. it is either copper or it isn't.
I have a few slabs too.. but I bought the coin, not somebody's opinion of the grade. For bullion coins in slabs, I don't mind the nice holder.. but is it really a better ounce of gold if it is MS69? To me it is still just an ounce of gold. |
If your percentages are low.. just sort more. If your percentages are high.. just sort more.
Now selling Copper pennies. 1.6x plus shipping. Limited amounts available. |
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starwarsgeek171
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
651 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2008 : 22:00:11
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| It would seem that it is important to buy coins that you personally find to be eye appealing. |
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Know Common Cents
Penny Pincher Member
195 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2008 : 22:46:26
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| The old addage of "Buy the coin not the holder" is more true now than ever before. Self education is the best defense against the low-tier third party graders and even being able to know that your decision to buy a slabbed coin is based in knowledge. This is regardless of the grading service or even for a "raw" coin. I've been to coin shows where one of the low-tier slabbers was on site. I witnessed that company representative asking the submitter what grade they wanted to appear on the holder. Bad news. NGC never, never used to grade a coin MS 70 as they believed that nothing was perfect. Obviously that's changed. Look at the TV hucksters and their wares. More bad news. |
Here in Wisconsin, we have some of the highest property and gasoline taxes in the US. We're squeezed so much, I have to make my daughter wear penny boxes for shoes. At least she has an endless supply. |
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NotABigDeal
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
3890 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2008 : 23:35:32
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I'm guilty of owning some slabbed coins. I only picked up the slabs because they contained gold....Know Common Cents makes a lot of sense. Awful lot of MS70's out there....
Deal
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Live free or die.
Plain and simple.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your council or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
- Samuel Adams |
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2008 : 01:25:44
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| I own some of each.. some gold bullion coins and some regular coins in slabs. I have nothing against a slab as long as I like the coin. |
If your percentages are low.. just sort more. If your percentages are high.. just sort more.
Now selling Copper pennies. 1.6x plus shipping. Limited amounts available. |
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starwarsgeek171
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
651 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2008 : 08:13:54
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| Wasn't MS70 considered to be an ideal/perfect grade at one point? There is no such thing as perfection. Japanese artists even go out of their way to add a flaw to anyhing they create, so as not to offend nature. |
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just carl
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
601 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2008 : 19:40:26
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If you look into this grading stuff a little more you'ld be finding the amount of grading services is increasing extensively. In addition to that is the counterfeit slabs with the fake coins in them. Then there are the people that have a $1 coin slabbed so they can attempt to sell it for a lot of money as a MS70. The coin graders are probabaly purposely slipping due to the compitition and if they grade to harshly, the people just go somewhere else. Used to to be that you could buy a coin in a slab and not worry about it. I've seen slabs that were opened, coin replaced and then resealed and impossible for the average person to detect.
So if your thinking of buying only slabbed coins, beware. |
Carl |
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NotABigDeal
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
3890 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2008 : 06:36:34
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quote:
Originally posted by just carl
If you look into this grading stuff a little more you'ld be finding the amount of grading services is increasing extensively. In addition to that is the counterfeit slabs with the fake coins in them. Then there are the people that have a $1 coin slabbed so they can attempt to sell it for a lot of money as a MS70. The coin graders are probabaly purposely slipping due to the compitition and if they grade to harshly, the people just go somewhere else. Used to to be that you could buy a coin in a slab and not worry about it. I've seen slabs that were opened, coin replaced and then resealed and impossible for the average person to detect.
So if your thinking of buying only slabbed coins, beware.
Exactly!
Deal |
Live free or die.
Plain and simple.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your council or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
- Samuel Adams |
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Art Tatum
Penny Collector Member
USA
400 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2008 : 11:06:07
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quote:
Originally posted by HoardCopperByTheTon
I own some of each.. some gold bullion coins and some regular coins in slabs. I have nothing against a slab as long as I like the coin.
Wow!The price doesn't effect you? You are a rich penny hoarder!
HERE: is my slabbed up coin collection~
(minus copper and wheat pennies and silver bars of course***)
You must be logged in to see this link.
mine is Ranked #23. Would be about number 8if not for 24 NGC overgraded Slabs! 
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my machine is running! |
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Art Tatum
Penny Collector Member
USA
400 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2008 : 11:08:10
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quote:
Originally posted by HoardCopperByTheTon
I own some of each.. some gold bullion coins and some regular coins in slabs. I have nothing against a slab as long as I like the coin.
Wow!The price doesn't effect you? You are a rich penny hoarder!
HERE: is my slabbed up coin collection~
(minus copper and wheat pennies and silver bars of course***)
You must be logged in to see this link.
mine is Ranked #23. Would be about number 8if not for 24 NGC overgraded Slabs!
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my machine is running! |
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Cody8404
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
602 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2008 : 03:33:39
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I collected most of my silver coins in the 1980's and as I watched my well spent money drop for several years.
Since that time I have chosen to only collect only those coins that have both intrinsic value, and I will not pay more than 20%, and it must be something that I like. |
Awake, O kings of the earth! Come ye, O, come ye, with your gold and your silver, to the help of my people, to the house of the daughters of Zion, to the help of the people of the God of this Land even Jesus Christ. |
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Cody8404
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
602 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2008 : 03:36:09
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| Sorry, I forgot the rest of my thought. I will buy a certified coin if it fits in my criteria. I only have one. |
Awake, O kings of the earth! Come ye, O, come ye, with your gold and your silver, to the help of my people, to the house of the daughters of Zion, to the help of the people of the God of this Land even Jesus Christ. |
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just carl
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
601 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2008 : 08:09:32
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As I noted previously it is probably the competition that makes coin graders more and more lax in grading. On a PCGS web site someone gave a link to the now 107 grading services. These services are growing massively with the ever growing coin collecting market. This is sort of like when VHS tapes first came out. Stores poped up everywhere selling, renting those things. Now most are fading away and the ones left will join them too. I expect the same will happen eventually with the ever growing grading services.
Just remember that China is becoming well known as a counterfeiter of now only the coins but the slabs they are in also. |
Carl |
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Art Tatum
Penny Collector Member
USA
400 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2008 : 23:16:45
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| not many counterfeit coins are in slabs bro. the reputation of the grading services would be toast if that were so. |
my machine is running! |
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Know Common Cents
Penny Pincher Member
195 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2008 : 21:05:00
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I read recently where PCGS and NGC are ratcheting down their policies regarding the submission of altered or "doctored" coins. For those dealers who continue to submit these types of coins (even when they're only the conduit for their customers), they'll receive a warning letter from PCGS/NGC. If they allow this to continue, they could be suspended or barred from future submissions. This will shift more of the responsibility to the dealers who should ensure that any coin sent to the legitimate grading services is genuine and not "messed with."
This is an interesting development as it's somewhat a common thought that even PCGS and NGC make millions of dollars each year by capturing the complete submission fees from all the "no grade" coins that are returned to the sender in a body bag.
I've seen coins in NGC and PCGS slabs that I believe have been improperly graded or have questionable surfaces, etc. None of the services are perfect--or even close. As long as humans are involved in the grading process, there's always the possibility of subjective grading. Educate yourself first and learn how to grade coins so that you'll have enough confidence to either agree with the grade on the slab's insert or know better. |
Here in Wisconsin, we have some of the highest property and gasoline taxes in the US. We're squeezed so much, I have to make my daughter wear penny boxes for shoes. At least she has an endless supply. |
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just carl
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
601 Posts |
Posted - 02/16/2008 : 18:14:13
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not many counterfeit coins are in slabs bro. the reputation of the grading services would be toast if that were so.
I think you missed my point. There are now counterfeited coin in counterfeited slabs. In other words if you see a slab that says NGC the entire thing may well be a fake now. And in reality it is easier to fake a slab than the coin. |
Carl |
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nckt
Penny Collector Member
USA
304 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2008 : 22:23:18
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| a lot of them do seem over graded, i saw a MS67 Morgan on teletrade, and it had a huge gash in the breast feathers |
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PennehChaos.
Penny Collector Member
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2008 : 17:34:38
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| Here's a good one i just got off of ebay... "SGS America's Grading"- slab says 1936S, the coin has no mint mark at all. Nice work. Too bad they didn't actually provide a grade on it, because i'm sure that would have been a real hoot. Still, i picked up the coins for a little under spot, can't really complain, even though i wanted the S. |
Considering Verizon Business service? Perhaps you'd like to consider a nice drain cleaner enema instead? |
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nckt
Penny Collector Member
USA
304 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2008 : 21:06:21
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| you know its a bad company when they cant get the date, or the mint mark right. haha |
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Graded Coins
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