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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
 Posted - 02/26/2010 : 12:42:46
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Let's talk about how one can go about turning copper scap into copper bars. Besides the actual smelting process, how can one be sure he or she has pure copper scap such as scrap from copper wire and not copper with other metals in it?
If a bar is stamped .999 then it must really be.
I think such an operation could be very exciting. Instead of getting scap value for your pure copper scap you could get premium prices. Your buyers would finally be able to get a quality copper bar at reasonable prices that makes it an investment opportunity. A win/win for everyone..........if it can be made to work of course.
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Kurr
1000+ Penny Miser Member
2906 Posts |
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2010 : 13:32:35
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| I'm sure that is true considering one would be dealing with molted metal not to mention gases. |
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Market Harmony
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1274 Posts |
 Posted - 02/26/2010 : 13:40:49
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Do you mean that people with scrap copper send to a bullion producer, like myself, then I simply charge them a fee to cast it into my products?
It is feasible, but I'll be honest with you, the vast majority of the cost of goods sold in my copper products is tied up in labor. 200 ozs per day of finished 10 oz bars, so you can do the math. However, larger bars (5+ pounds) are most cost efficient.
There are also patriot act laws and state/local regulations which would need to be followed for the acceptance of scrap metal. You need a license to buy scrap from the public in PA. And then you have to keep records. It might be worth it for larger sized lots, but not for small lots. |
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Kurr
1000+ Penny Miser Member
2906 Posts |
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2010 : 13:57:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Market Harmony
Do you mean that people with scrap copper send to a bullion producer, like myself, then I simply charge them a fee to cast it into my products?
It is feasible, but I'll be honest with you, the vast majority of the cost of goods sold in my copper products is tied up in labor. 200 ozs per day of finished 10 oz bars, so you can do the math. However, larger bars (5+ pounds) are most cost efficient.
There are also patriot act laws and state/local regulations which would need to be followed for the acceptance of scrap metal. You need a license to buy scrap from the public in PA. And then you have to keep records. It might be worth it for larger sized lots, but not for small lots.
I didn't even think of that but it may be something to consider.
How practical would a large bar no frills operation be? What I would like to see is the ability of investors to buy practical large bar .999 copper.
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All posts either by the members, moderators, and the administration of http://realcent.forumco.com are for your edification and amusement only. It is not the intent of realcent.forumco.com or its host to provide investment, medical, matrimonial, legal, security or tax advice and nothing posted here should be considered to be so. All rights reserved.
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Market Harmony
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1274 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2010 : 14:17:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Ardent Listener
...How practical would a large bar no frills operation be? What I would like to see is the ability of investors to buy practical large bar .999 copper.
capital equipment:
furnace
molds
safety gear
finishing equipment
stamps
cost of production:
crucibles
flux
fuel
labor
shipping and handling
ancillary costs (assays, metal loss, minor production supplies)
For bigger bars, the costs of the capital equipment increases, and the relative cost of production decreases. |
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cptindy
Penny Hoarding Member
572 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2010 : 17:30:13
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[quote]There are also patriot act laws and state/local regulations which would need to be followed for the acceptance of scrap metal. You need a license to buy scrap from the public in PA. And then you have to keep records. It might be worth it for larger sized lots, but not for small lots.[quote]
I like where this is going! Market brings up key questions that I am sure he is more aware than most, especially me.
What form in relation to scrap copper is best suited to be made into bars? I would guess wire as number one. How about plumbing? Is there a way to personally assay a product to make sure of .999 purity?
I see the difficulty and recognize a high labor cost right away. It would be time intensive for sure.
I was thinking of making my own bars as I get scrap copper regularly and would love to get more than the yard price. I did not find any molds for a 5-10 lbs bar in graphite. What would be an alternative to using graphite molds? I think it would be cool to make 10-25 lbs bars! That is a lot of metal ! heh! heh! heh! Sorry that was the kid in me! Just thinking of it makes me a little giddy!
IDK! Seems interesting!
Tlake is selling some bars, not sure as to its purity! But as an investment bullion it is more affordable and will see a return in value much quicker than the polished fancy stuff. It can simply be taken to a scrap yard for instant cash when the price goes up! So to me that would be the copper bullion to own! It does not need to be anything more than what it is solid copper!
That my friends is liquid !
@ a price of $5 lbs it is a reasonable price with the expectation of $10.00 lbs copper!
The bigger bars sound cool but as to taking them to the yard you will be unable to get #1 copper price!
Plain bullion chunks of copper @ $5.00 a lbs to buyers is a win win!
Please respond with ideas and opinions!
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"It is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting"
" The average man doesn't want to be free. He wants to be safe."
H.L. Mencken
http://silver-news-today.com/ |
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knibloe
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1066 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2010 : 21:46:57
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| I like the idea. |
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coppertone
Penny Sorter Member
Canada
63 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2010 : 22:43:08
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| Backyard (or workshop!!) bullion. I like it. Will probably give it a try someday. Need more copper, more knowledge. |
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knibloe
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1066 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2010 : 08:39:10
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Canadian pennies are legal to melt here in the US. They are a known weight and purity.
Fairly plentiful here in the northern states. I just sold 60# of them for $140.
What would it have cost to melt them and what would 12-5# bars have retailed for? |
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cptindy
Penny Hoarding Member
572 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2010 : 10:15:17
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I found some of the information I needed!
You must be logged in to see this link.
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"It is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting"
" The average man doesn't want to be free. He wants to be safe."
H.L. Mencken
http://silver-news-today.com/ |
Edited by - cptindy on 02/27/2010 10:15:48 |
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Kurr
1000+ Penny Miser Member
2906 Posts |
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Market Harmony
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1274 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2010 : 11:50:24
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quote:
Originally posted by cptindy
...What form in relation to scrap copper is best suited to be made into bars? I would guess wire as number one. How about plumbing? Is there a way to personally assay a product to make sure of .999 purity?
The absolute best form of raw material to use in a furnace is #1 copper chop. It is in an easily measurable form and already 99.95% pure. Unstripped wire, pipe with solder, and other forms will cause the melt to be impure and off-spec. You must use clean #1 copper scrap to get .999 copper. If you have dirty scrap copper, then I suggest that you cut away the good clean parts and take the rest to the yard for #2 prices. What you have left is clean #1... this is the feedstock that you want to use.
quote:
Originally posted by cptindy
I see the difficulty and recognize a high labor cost right away. It would be time intensive for sure.
More so than you might initially think. Of course, the time and labor factor reduce as a percentage of total output with larger capacity equipment. Small direct-heat electric jewelers furnaces are not the best method for doing this. A removable crucible induction furnace is good for bars up to 5 lbs, a larger tilting furnace (whether gas fired, direct heat, or induction) is best for 5+ lb bars. You can also use a removable crucible gas fired furnace that can house a #10 crucible or larger. The bigger you get, the more difficult it is to pour. A #16 crucible can hold about 65 pounds of copper, but that is close to full and the danger factor greatly increases
quote:
Originally posted by cptindy
I was thinking of making my own bars as I get scrap copper regularly and would love to get more than the yard price. I did not find any molds for a 5-10 lbs bar in graphite. What would be an alternative to using graphite molds? I think it would be cool to make 10-25 lbs bars...
You can make your own molds from scrap iron and steel. A U shaped or V shaped piece of steel supporting beam with two plates welded on either end to close off the openings and make feet for the mold will work well. It's got to be thick steel, however. Alternatively, you can send a mold design to a graphite shop and they will make you a mold, but they are not cheap. Graphite will last much longer than the steel mold, and metal will not stick to graphite.
quote:
Originally posted by cptindy...The bigger bars sound cool but as to taking them to the yard you will be unable to get #1 copper price!...
Why not? #1 copper is #1 copper.... no matter what its form. It's a commodity and any size will be treated the same as long as it is 99+% pure.
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cptindy
Penny Hoarding Member
572 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2010 : 18:03:01
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Thank you for your comments. That is what I thought as far as what you have stated.In regard to the #1 copper, I have had trouble at times with yards where I did not know anyone when it came to larger size copper. I don't know if they were just giving me the run around or if their personal preference was smaller sizes. I just let it go (It was easy Money either way)but it has happened on more than one occasion at different yards. One theory I had was what the yard specialized in. Every yard has different capacities and outlets to sell. IDK!
I found this link and was interested because it seems to allow an easy way to get started.
You must be logged in to see this link.
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"It is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting"
" The average man doesn't want to be free. He wants to be safe."
H.L. Mencken
http://silver-news-today.com/ |
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phillips24
Penny Pincher Member
USA
142 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2010 : 20:12:50
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| How about just buying your #1 stock from your scrapyard. That should get you out of the laws from buying from the public, and you would be able to just pick the tubing which as MH said is of a known alloy and .9995% pure. I would bet that if you even had #2 with some impurities in it, after you melt it into bars you would actually get #1 price at your scrapyard. |
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Mcprice302
Penny Collector Member
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2010 : 20:46:11
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Would Aluminum be an easier material to work with for the beginner? I've thought of doing a little casting myself, but hear copper and especially brass is a little tricky unless you know your stuff.
MH, could you explain the process of refining unpure materials into .999 products? Say canadian copper pennies for example. I hear that when melting brass, the zinc will try to seperate and burn off since (I think) it has a lower melting point than the copper. Surely though, that cant be all there is to purification right? If it is, how do you know when all the zinc is gone? What kind of equipment and steps are involved in such a process if there is more to it? More noob questions to follow, lol . |
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Kurr
1000+ Penny Miser Member
2906 Posts |
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Market Harmony
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1274 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2010 : 11:38:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Mcprice302
Would Aluminum be an easier material to work with for the beginner? I've thought of doing a little casting myself, but hear copper and especially brass is a little tricky unless you know your stuff.
MH, could you explain the process of refining unpure materials into .999 products? Say canadian copper pennies for example. I hear that when melting brass, the zinc will try to seperate and burn off since (I think) it has a lower melting point than the copper. Surely though, that cant be all there is to purification right? If it is, how do you know when all the zinc is gone? What kind of equipment and steps are involved in such a process if there is more to it? More noob questions to follow, lol.
Aluminum is only "easier" in that the melting temperature is lower. Additional issues regarding oxidation (slag/dross) come into play. NO MOLTEN METAL IS SAFE.
I know little to nothing in regards to refining copper. I'm not involved in the refining of copper. I can answer questions when it comes to refining gold, silver, platinum, and palladium.
I do know enough to say that it is not feasible (economically or otherwise) to refine copper on a small scale. |
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Mcprice302
Penny Collector Member
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2010 : 17:08:23
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| Okay, thanks. I've spent the better part of today studying up on casting and refining techniques for many different metals. I'll be completely honest and just say that I am overwhelmed at all the different chemicals and processes involved in such an operation. I guess I'm in a state of overload at the moment, lol. Dangerous stuff no doubt, and I have nothing but respect for anyone who does this. It seems very intriguing to me though, but I think I'll keep learning all I can before attempting what I read. I'll try not to ask too many dumb questions along the way. Maybe by this Summer I will feel informed enough to give it a shot. Thanks for your time. |
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Flbandit
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
851 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2010 : 17:33:52
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| I've thought about this as well. I guess we all have! Somehow I see myself burning down my shed, and/or burning the crap out of myself. I guess I'll stick with my scrap, and buying a few bars here and there. |
Are you throwing that out? |
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Mcprice302
Penny Collector Member
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2010 : 20:07:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Mcprice302
I'll try not to ask too many dumb questions along the way.
Ok, I lied . Can anyone please confirm or deny that extruded (particularly 6061) aluminum isn't as good for re-casting as already cast aluminum (ie Al intake manifolds, wheels, cylinder heads, etc..) due to the tendency of the extruded Al to shrink when cast?
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Kurr
1000+ Penny Miser Member
2906 Posts |
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Mcprice302
Penny Collector Member
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2010 : 20:18:51
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| Thank you much. I've got a little bit laying around so I think I'll just use it for the first pour when the time comes instead of scrapping it. Most of it is already under 3" in length piled up in a drum so that will help too. Thanks again Kurr, I might just make it out of this alive with all yalls help, lol. |
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dreco
New Member
14 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2010 : 00:57:04
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sorry if this sounds dumb...
Is there anyway to do it slowly..... i mean strip wire, melt it in a ceramic crucible with a gas touch, and pour into a 1oz mold, as you time allows?
im looking at it as a learning hobbie, not as a way to make massive profits.
thanks MH for your help on my other post, but i dont think i knew what i wanted to do then.
any advice is apreciated
cheers |
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dreco
New Member
14 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2010 : 01:21:20
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just woundering if it can be done as a small hobbie
cheers |
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Topic |
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Turning scrap into bars.
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