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Ryedale
Administrator
USA
523 Posts |
 Posted - 11/24/2009 : 14:01:29
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A poster on a popular gold site, suggested that the pennies we hoard are the property of the government. Does anybody have any good information including old laws of the land etc concerning this issue. Do I own my pennies. If this is a true statement, couldn't this apply to all forms of collectible coins?
Your thoughts please.
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Ryedale
GET YOUR DRI-SLIDE FROM IRONBRAID
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Quote
"The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing at the right place, but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the most tempting moment."
— Dorothy Neville-Rolfe |
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JerrySpringer
Penny Hoarding Member
669 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 14:11:07
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| I think the government could call them in any time they wanted, just like gold in the 1930's. Would they? Well could you just picture the crime reports coming out about people busted for owning pennies? |
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jonflyfish
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
693 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 14:16:00
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| I do believe that the coins are the property of those who are holding them. My coins do not belong the the US government. I bought them. |
The first panacea for a mismanaged nation is inflation of the currency; second is war. Both bring a temporary (and false) prosperity; both bring a permanent ruin. But both are the refuge of political and economic opportunities. |
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El Dee
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
547 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 14:18:07
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As far as I know, money has always been the property of the bearer.
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Trust the government? Ask an Indian. |
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slickeast
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2533 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 15:00:03
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| Try not paying your property taxes and see who will own your house. the government can seize your property. why do you think they can't seize your coins? |
You don't have to be the BEST you just have to be.......SLICK
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Edited by - slickeast on 11/24/2009 18:52:48 |
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jonflyfish
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
693 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 15:42:30
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Slick- Who is saying that the government can't seize property? The question here is about who owns coins.
Property tax liens are a whole different matter all together. |
The first panacea for a mismanaged nation is inflation of the currency; second is war. Both bring a temporary (and false) prosperity; both bring a permanent ruin. But both are the refuge of political and economic opportunities. |
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daviscfad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1664 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 16:48:47
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| i would think they could take them ifthey wanted. i mean they're the government they do what they want. |
Inquiring minds want to know |
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Bluegill
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1964 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 17:15:32
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"We the people" are the government, our elected representatives work for us. So no, the government does not own our pennies. We the people, the sovereign citizenry, own the pennies.
Does a business owner's assets belong to him/her, or the employees of said business?
Now back to the reality of the 21st century, the king government owns anything it wants. The subjects taxpayers borrowers people have no say in the matter.
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coppernickel
Penny Pincher Member
USA
131 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 18:03:43
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I have seen the argument more than once that because each coin says, "United States of America," this makes each coin the property of the government.
This is also part of the argument that Fed bills are a not a note of "wealth," but a note of "debt." Thus if you hold a dollar bill you owe the Fed one silver dollar.
I have heard these arguments, but I have never heard any support or enforcement of them. |
Silver Monometalism is the most permanent and stable form of money the world has seen. Natural law and history prove silver value is best multiplied by gold and best divided by copper. It is only in this counterfeit currency time when the natural law appears suspended. |
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jonflyfish
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
693 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 19:01:44
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| Just because a coin has a name on it does not stake ownership. Does the United States (or the Kennedy estate for that matter) legally own all 1964 half dollars? Nope. You can legally melt, refine, paint, shoot, hole or cut them. They are owned by possession. |
The first panacea for a mismanaged nation is inflation of the currency; second is war. Both bring a temporary (and false) prosperity; both bring a permanent ruin. But both are the refuge of political and economic opportunities. |
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fasteddy
Penny Collector Member
USA
298 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 19:10:33
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I am thinking the only time I have heard the gov owning coins are the 1933 gold coins and I believe the mint lays claim to those.
Good luck in getting my money...my spouse and kids spend it as fast as I can make it. I am developing a map of my back yard were my coins are getting buried. not really ;-) |
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Kurr
1000+ Penny Miser Member
2906 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 19:12:11
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The way I heard it, it has to do with your birth certificate, your "corporate self" created for you at birth and the bankruptcy restructure and incorporation of the USA back in the day.
Basically, since the bankruptcy and reorganizing you are a corporate citizen. Everything you do in your life is done in your corporate name, and is property of the corporation, which is like a subdivision of the corporate government. If you get married that's a merger between 2 corporations, yours and hers, under the state, which is under the federal. GIM has a great post on this I believe.
Being the parent company to you it can take or raid the assets of its subsidiary at will or according to the contract/trust/WhatEver, no matter what they be.
Structure of a birth certificate:
You must be logged in to see this link.
Marriage Liscense the real truth:
You must be logged in to see this link.
And lets not even get started on the "National Emergency" powers:
EXECUTIVE ORDER 10990 allows the government to take over all modes of transportation and control of highways and seaports.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 10995 allows the government to seize and control the communication media.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 10997 allows the government to take over all electrical power, gas, petroleum, fuels and minerals.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 10998 allows the government to take over all food resources and farms.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11000 allows the government to mobilize civilians into work brigades under government supervision.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11001 allows the government to take over all health, education and welfare functions.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11002 designates the Postmaster General to operate a national registration of all persons.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11003 allows the government to take over all airports and aircraft, including commercial aircraft.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11004 allows the Housing and Finance Authority to relocate communities, build new housing with public funds, designate areas to be abandoned, and establish new locations for populations.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11005 allows the government to take over railroads, inland waterways and public storage facilities.
And we are currently under declared emergency that cannot even be reviewed by congress for 6 months. Obama declared it due to swine flu.
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The silver [is] mine, and the gold [is] mine, saith the LORD of hosts. Hag 2:8 [/b]
He created it. He controls it. He gave it to us for His use. Why did we turn from sound scriptural currency that PROTECTS us?
KJV Bible w/ Strong's Concordance: http://www.blueletterbible.org/
The book of The Hundreds: http://www.land.netonecom.net/tlp/ref/boh/bookOfTheHundreds_v4.1.pdf
The Two Republics: http://www.whitehorsemedia.com/docs/THE_TWO_REPUBLICS.pdf
Good reading: http://ecclesia.org/truth/government.html
A number of people are educated beyond, sometimes way beyond, their intelligence. - Tenbears
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Edited by - Kurr on 11/24/2009 19:28:14 |
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slickeast
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2533 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 19:16:16
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quote:
Originally posted by jonflyfish
Slick- Who is saying that the government can't seize property? The question here is about who owns coins.
Property tax liens are a whole different matter all together.
Coins are property too!! Now as far as the government seizing your pennies, I doubt that this will ever happen. They will go after your gold and silver first. If this was 1942 and we were about to go to war, the government might think about it. That is why the steel penny was used in '43. The copper was being used for ammunition. The government would take all the pennies they needed to support the war and the making of ammunition.
This is also why we have war nickels. The Nickel was being used for the production of miltary supplies during World War II.
If the government thinks that they need something, they will take it.
If you owned your pennies, why can't you melt them? You can and you will be fined by who?.....the government.
You own your pennies, so take a few tons down to Mexico. Oh you can't take more than $5.00 with you across the boarder. Well who is gonna stop you from taking YOUR property across the boarder...The Government again.
So you tell me. Who owns your pennies? |
You don't have to be the BEST you just have to be.......SLICK
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jonflyfish
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
693 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 19:30:40
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quote:
Originally posted by slickeast
quote:
Originally posted by jonflyfish
Slick- Who is saying that the government can't seize property? The question here is about who owns coins.
Property tax liens are a whole different matter all together.
Coins are property too!! Now as far as the government seizing your pennies, I doubt that this will ever happen. They will go after your gold and silver first. If this was 1942 and we were about to go to war, the government might think about it. That is why the steel penny was used in '43. The copper was being used for ammunition. The government would take all the pennies they needed to support the war and the making of ammunition.
This is also why we have war nickels. The Nickel was being used for the production of miltary supplies during World War II.
If the government thinks that they need something, they will take it.
If you owned your pennies, why can't you melt them? You can and you will be fined by who?.....the government.
You own your pennies, so take a few tons down to Mexico. Oh you can't take more than $5.00 with you across the boarder. Well who is gonna stop you from taking YOUR property across the boarder...The Government again.
So you tell me. Who owns your pennies?
I still think confiscation and ownership are two different topics here. The government can and will seize ANYTHING you own if you owe them (think IRS).
You own the coins that you possess. Do you suppose that the government owns all nickels and pennies but will allow you to melt everything else? The government placed a ban on melting nickels and pennies recently to protect their own interest because of the cost that they would incur in having to suddenly replace those coins. Remember when this happened for silver debasement? Once supply was sufficient, that ban was lifted and coins have since been melted and refined by the 10's of millions. In fact, for Thanksgiving, my family and I will be drinking out of silver goblets and using silver silverware and serving plates that were once circulated coins but since melted and refined. Is this an illegal act?
You may still flatten, cut, shoot, hole, paint, bend etc your pennies. You own them. However, once you deface them you cannot pass them off as legal tender.
Cheers! |
The first panacea for a mismanaged nation is inflation of the currency; second is war. Both bring a temporary (and false) prosperity; both bring a permanent ruin. But both are the refuge of political and economic opportunities. |
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 19:36:29
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| I'll put it this way, we already can't melt our pennies or nickels by law. It doesn't sound like they think we own them. |
Realcent.forumco.com disclosure. Please read.
All posts either by the members, moderators, and the administration of http://realcent.forumco.com are for your edification and amusement only. It is not the intent of realcent.forumco.com or its host to provide investment, medical, matrimonial, legal, security or tax advice and nothing posted here should be considered to be so. All rights reserved.
Think positive. |
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jonflyfish
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
693 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 19:46:34
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| The government owns the financial system. They will enact laws to protect it for continuity of commerce. Hence there have been/are short term melting bans that come and go in order to protect the integrity of a system (from Gresham's law.). The government owns and controls the financial system. However, that does not mean that they own your assets. A FRN is a liability. A coin is an asset. |
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 19:56:42
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quote:
Originally posted by jonflyfish
The government owns the financial system. They will enact laws to protect it for continuity of commerce. Hence there have been/are short term melting bans that come and go in order to protect the integrity of a system (from Gresham's law.). The government owns and controls the financial system. However, that does not mean that they own your assets. A FRN is a liability. A coin is an asset.
It might not mean that they own my coins but they sure aren't allowing me full free use of it. That doesn't sound like I truly own them. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.
They could call in all the pennies and nickels anytime they want and pay us off in FRNs for them. I had an aunt who collected gold coins from the public and paid them off with paper at a bank in Cleveland during the gold ban of the 1930s. Ask those who where forced by law to turn them in if they felt like they were the true owners.  |
Realcent.forumco.com disclosure. Please read.
All posts either by the members, moderators, and the administration of http://realcent.forumco.com are for your edification and amusement only. It is not the intent of realcent.forumco.com or its host to provide investment, medical, matrimonial, legal, security or tax advice and nothing posted here should be considered to be so. All rights reserved.
Think positive. |
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Kurr
1000+ Penny Miser Member
2906 Posts |
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 20:08:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Kurr
I think they government believes it is entitled to seize any and all assets at any time. That would mean they believe they are the ultimate owners of the property.
And that is where we are heading more and more. Sure, we own it until the goverment wants it.........including our bodies with forced healthcare. |
Realcent.forumco.com disclosure. Please read.
All posts either by the members, moderators, and the administration of http://realcent.forumco.com are for your edification and amusement only. It is not the intent of realcent.forumco.com or its host to provide investment, medical, matrimonial, legal, security or tax advice and nothing posted here should be considered to be so. All rights reserved.
Think positive. |
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jonflyfish
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
693 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 20:09:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Ardent Listener
quote:
Originally posted by jonflyfish
The government owns the financial system. They will enact laws to protect it for continuity of commerce. Hence there have been/are short term melting bans that come and go in order to protect the integrity of a system (from Gresham's law.). The government owns and controls the financial system. However, that does not mean that they own your assets. A FRN is a liability. A coin is an asset.
It might not mean that they own my coins but they sure aren't allowing me full free use of it. That doesn't sound like I truly own them. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.
But like others said, they could call in all the pennies and nickels anytime they want and pay us off in FRNs for them. I had an aunt who collected gold coins from the public and paid them off with paper at a bank in Cleveland during the gold ban of the 1930s. Ask those who where forced by law to turn them in if they felt like they were the true owners.
Don't want to overly labor the thoughts but I respectfully disagree. Ownership and seizure are different. Your real estate may not feel like you own it if you do not obey zoning and building laws. You may not feel like you own it because you have to pay property tax on it. And if you don't pay the tax, the property will be taken from you.
You may even take solace in owning your house because you have a slip of paper from a title company that says you are the legal owner- until the government decides it would be better suited as a bombing range and seizes your house under the premise of eminent domain. My point is that ANY asset can be seized. However, that does not define ownership.
Cheers |
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TXTim
Penny Hoarding Member
629 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 20:27:25
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It would be very interesting if the gov't tried to take pennies, silver coins, guns or anything I own from me.
Come and get it! |
Beer is my currency. |
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marine70
Penny Pincher Member
USA
150 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 20:47:39
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| They sure thank the do it amazes me that those individuals we send to Washington. Try to dictate our existance let alone our money which we pay to produce. |
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Nickelless
Administrator
USA
5580 Posts |
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barrytrot
Administrator
USA
721 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 23:15:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Nickelless
quote:
Originally posted by TXTim
It would be very interesting if the gov't tried to take pennies, silver coins, guns or anything I own from me.
Come and get it!
And how will they find out about stuff we've paid cash for, especially coins?? Especially since you can hide huge amounts of PMs in small spaces:
You must be logged in to see this link.
Neat article, although it doesn't apply nearly as well to copper which really is bulky.
Sure you could hide a small amount in a 5 foot cube, but at "Horde's" level you are looking at a lot of 5-foot cubes.
And, of course 1 5-foot cube would be over a ton, so probably isn't such a good stacking size unless you have an industrial crane as well :) |
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daviscfad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1664 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 23:22:10
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I guess the 5th amendment would make it where they could not just take it. from wikipedia
" No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation" |
Inquiring minds want to know |
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slickeast
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2533 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2009 : 23:27:12
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quote:
Originally posted by barrytrot
And, of course 1 5-foot cube would be over a ton, so probably isn't such a good stacking size unless you have an industrial crane as well :)
1 5ft cube would be about 17 TONS of copper pennies. |
You don't have to be the BEST you just have to be.......SLICK
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Topic |
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Does the government own our pennies?
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