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n/a
deleted
146 Posts |
 Posted - 04/27/2007 : 17:09:05
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Could hoarding be an effective way to "fight the Man?"
They keep saying that the reason for the dollar coins is to save the Federal Reserve money. So, if you spend only greenbacks, that is a loss for the Fed.
Also, if you hoard ANY type of circulating coin, you create demand for the Mint to produce more of it. The more coins are needed, the more Congress has to spend on the Mint. This would contribute to the debt and lead to a loss for the federal government.
If enough people with enough money did this over a long period of time, both the Federal Reserve and the federal government would lose a LOT of money.
Think about it.
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"The best way to destroy the capitalist system is to debauch the currency. By a continuing process of inflation governments can confiscate, secretly and unobserved, an important part of the wealth of their citizens." -John Maynard Keynes
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SmallCHange
Penny Sorter Member
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2007 : 17:41:52
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I do not think anyone on this board wants to fight "the man". Being a US citizen, I wish OUR govt and mint would at least have as much sense as the Canadians who produce coinage profitably. We all pay taxes and it really bothers me to see the US govt producing coinage costing more in raw materials, no less the costs of production and distribution, than what they can "sell the "tokens" for. I guess they justify it by looking at the costs of the US foreign policy and deciding that its nothing compared to that.
"Born & Raised in the US, but wish things could be different, and I could imagine a better future ahead." |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2007 : 18:31:56
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As far as "fighting the Man" is concerned, I doubt that hoarding coins or spending paper money is going to cause the US Government to go bankrupt since, well, the government is technically insolvent anyway.
Hoarding didn't cause the mess the US is in now,
spending too much on pork projects and boondoggles,
using the social security money as a piggy bank to raid every time the bills came due,
trying to buy guns AND butter during the Johnson Administration (and every administration since)etc.
Breaking the US through hoarding coins is no more likely to cause the US to lose money than saving money in a piggy bank is going to cause the banking system to collapse for want of coins.
Just my 2¢
I should have chosen "Cut-n-Paste" as a forum name, since that is what I do, mostly. |
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c140cessna
Penny Collector Member
USA
419 Posts |
 Posted - 04/27/2007 : 19:19:59
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quote:
Originally posted by SmallCHange
......it really bothers me to see the US govt producing coinage costing more in raw materials, no less the costs of production and distribution......
Here is another point of view....I have not fully thought it through but: I'm actually a fan of my Government coining money out of materials more expensive than face.....it creates "sound money" that is inflation proof. I'd love to see silver and gold money again...in that same line of thinking, I see base metals - copper, zinc, tin, nickel - as creating a sound money.
I think it would be great if when I went to the ATM it spit out silver pieces a little heavier than 1 ozt and called them $20. And Gold pieces a little heavier than 1/10 ozt called $100. The "dollar" would be sound if it were made of .999Ni......
The current US Nickel is the only sound money we have.....the zinc penny is close to sound.
Just my opinion....
40 year old guy trying to look out for my family. My great country is headed for the dumpster....and worst yet, no one knows/cares it is happening..... |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2007 : 19:36:45
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While producing coins worth more than face seems like a good idea (inflation proof money) the drawback is what happened to the nation's first gold and silver coins. The coins were worth more as gold and silver than coins, so they ended up getting shipped over to europe to be melted.
Clever traders would exchange their worn out silver and gold foreign coins and get newly minted US gold and silver from their customers and either send them overseas or melt them down. (sound familiar?)
I do like the idea of a one half subsidary coin,a quarter worth 12.5¢ melt and a dime worth 5¢ melt to allow for price appreciation so the coins will stay in circulation in spite of metals price runups.
I should have chosen "Cut-n-Paste" as a forum name, since that is what I do, mostly. |
Edited by - pencilvanian on 04/27/2007 19:38:00 |
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n/a
deleted
132 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2007 : 21:15:09
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I once read that the national average for savings was in the
negative #'s and that when people save money it ups the value
of the dollar and thats one of the reasons that the mint is
churning out so many new coins.
Think about it and im not talking about proofs or commems
just circulating coinage.
The statehood quarters
50 states P+D = 100 quarters
.25 x 100 = 25.00
Said approx. 150 million people were collecting
the quarters. SOOooo
25.00 x 150 million = 1 real big #
Now with the dollars 44 presidents P+D= 88.00
88.00 x 150 million
I doubt thats the case....I think its the mint that
wants the money and thats the reason for the new coinage.
But its anybodys guess........
"To the uninformed, pocket change.
To the informed, an investment." |
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n/a
deleted
146 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2007 : 21:23:21
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quote:
Originally posted by pencilvanian
As far as "fighting the Man" is concerned, I doubt that hoarding coins or spending paper money is going to cause the US Government to go bankrupt since, well, the government is technically insolvent anyway.
It's only a matter of time before Red China will want their money back. And when they don't get it, they'll want our country instead. What a terrible government they have over there! Much worse than ours. I wouldn't want to see America under Chinese rule in my lifetime 
quote:
Breaking the US through hoarding coins is no more likely to cause the US to lose money than saving money in a piggy bank is going to cause the banking system to collapse for want of coins.
Just my 2¢
Yeah, but if enough people with enough money did that... 
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"The best way to destroy the capitalist system is to debauch the currency. By a continuing process of inflation governments can confiscate, secretly and unobserved, an important part of the wealth of their citizens." -John Maynard Keynes |
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psi
Penny Collector Member
Canada
399 Posts |
Posted - 04/27/2007 : 23:12:14
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As far as the general idea of "fighting" TBTB goes, it's not a term I'd use to describe my own goals. Ideally I'd like to limit "the man"'s influence in my own life by helping to set up alternative support networks. I don't see this as "fighting" so much as taking my business elsewhere.
As others have argued here, the metal value "lost" to governments through hoarding probably won't directly make a big difference in the timing of the seemingly inevitable collapse of debt-based money. On the other hand, widespread abandonment of paper money in favour of commodity money, including coins originally taken from circulation, might bring that collapse on a lot faster if it were to occur. |
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Canadian_Nickle
Penny Hoarding Member
Canada
938 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2007 : 00:37:18
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"I do not think anyone on this board wants to fight "the man"."
Well, you're wrong on that count.
Burn down Babylon.
________________________
"A nickel's nothing to scoff at."
C. Montgomery Burns
HoardCode0.1: M28/5CAON:CA5Ni35000:CA1Cu1200:CA100Ag345:
CA10Ag250:CA50Ag100:CA25Ag30:CA500Ag48:US100Ag20:CA1000Ag16
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SmallCHange
Penny Sorter Member
USA
70 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2007 : 13:24:11
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Canadian Nickle,
It is not the average person in the US that is any different than any other average person in ANY other country in the WORLD. The average person wants to find someone to fall in love with and raise children and have at least an acceptable life. We do not want wars, etc, etc. We ALL have the same problem, in that the GOVTs we live under DO NOT CARE enough about the average person that they pretend to serve. THAT IS MY ISSUE.
"Born & Raised in the US, but wish things could be different, and I could imagine a better future ahead." |
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Canadian_Nickle
Penny Hoarding Member
Canada
938 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2007 : 19:26:50
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See, when I say "fight the man" I mean fight the man who is in office but does not care enough about the average person that they pretend to serve. I really do. I've run for office several times, always on a platform of representing my constituents, not belonging to a political party and not accepting any donations. I've always lost, but at least I can go to my grave knowing that I fought the man in the most civilized way possible. Also, I'm a scorpio, so I appologise if I display a bit of a temper.
________________________
"A nickel's nothing to scoff at."
C. Montgomery Burns
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n/a
deleted
479 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2007 : 21:03:25
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I think that the people in govMint are just people who have a lot of ambition.
The real opperssors are the banks.
"the man" is not in my opinion the bureaucrat, the manager, or the politician.
In my opinion, "the man" is the bank, specifically the Federal Reserve Bank, the Bank of England, the European Central Bank, the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund, and similar institutions.
We have been programmed to blame everything on the "politicians" and the "government".
Who exactly has programmed us to automatically respond this way?
I contend that the above mentioned banks have been very sucessful in deflecting criticisms away from themselves, precisely by programming "average people" to reflexively blame all their ills on the "government".
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On April 24th, 2007, Dennis Kucinich submitted articles of Impeachment against Dick Cheney.
I think it is called House Resolution 333.
My response was to immediately send him a monetary contribution.
Actions speak louder than words.
If you agree that someone should Impeach Dick Cheney, then please show the world and future historians that you think so.
Send him whatever makes sense for you.
I'm sure that if you sent him at least $5 they would come out ahead after processing the transaction.
What matters is that we support those who do the right thing.
"Now, with respect to the president. I think that it's very important that we start with Mr. Cheney. Because if we were to start with the president and pursue articles of impeachment, Mr. Cheney would then become president."
-Dennis Kucinich 2007, Apr. 24
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Edited by - n/a on 04/28/2007 21:05:00 |
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Canadian_Nickle
Penny Hoarding Member
Canada
938 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2007 : 22:05:56
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Don't forget the granddaddy of them all, the Bank for International Settlements.
________________________
"A nickel's nothing to scoff at."
C. Montgomery Burns
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CA10Ag250:CA50Ag100:CA25Ag30:CA500Ag48:US100Ag20:CA1000Ag16
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n/a
deleted
479 Posts |
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n/a
deleted
6 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2007 : 01:06:39
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| As far as the whole idea of "figting the man" goes, the one thing that a lot of people either forget, don't realize or were never taught is that this system we have in place is WAY off track from what the framers of the Constitution had in mind. I'm really tired of the argument that they couldn't have forseen the issues of today. The reality is that the same principles apply always. Circomestances will change but solid principles do not change any more than the cycle of the seasons and the mountains and the stars. They stole our money (Woodrow Wilson's Federal Reserve and FDR's arbitrary, criminal closing of the banks and reopening at a devalued Dollar and seizure of private citizen's gold) plunged us into perpetual war, built a unfathomably giant military/industrial system that ravenously feeds itself off of our toils and labor, and smashes its hammer of injustice down on those who resist our empire, They hoarded all of us into this new age socialism that instills this belief that the government should take care of us and watch over us from the cradle to the grave, and set up this "managed" economy house of cards, that places 95% of us into this worker bee category, where our only value is not as human beings with dreams, families, and wonderful talents and abilities, but rather as numbered servants, faithfully "doing our part". When we do that, we do our part all right, our part to submit to this awful monster that WE THE PEOPLE allowed to wedge itself into power, and look at it now, it seems just about impossible to dislodge. If you want things to change, we have to demand our money back (sound money)we have to abolish the fed, the IRS, Homeland security, say NO WAY to NAFTA GATT WTO, World Bank, North American Union and bunch of other tiresome alphabetic agencies that are a slap in the face to our liberty. You or I may not be able to change the world on our own, but unless you stand up and publicly make it known that you disagree, then you agree. If you dont speak out against this, then you are in compliance, and are just as guilty as the ones who dared to subvert our American way. |
Edited by - n/a on 06/15/2007 01:08:49 |
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Canadian_Nickle
Penny Hoarding Member
Canada
938 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2007 : 21:46:35
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Brilliant rant. Well done. A+
________________________
"A nickel's nothing to scoff at."
C. Montgomery Burns
HoardCode0.1: M28/5CAON:CA5Ni35000:CA1Cu1200:CA100Ag345:
CA10Ag250:CA50Ag100:CA25Ag30:CA500Ag48:US100Ag20:CA1000Ag16
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n/a
deleted
59 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2007 : 00:36:22
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Agreed. If the founding fathers were here today, they'd start the revolutionary war all over again. I fear that today's America bears a greater resemblance to England circa 1775 than the America that they created.
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One of the chief attractions of the life of the wilderness is its rugged and stalwart democracy;
there every man stands for what he actually is, and can show himself to be.
-- Theodore Roosevelt |
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mickeyman
Penny Pincher Member
Canada
243 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2007 : 15:22:56
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Don't forget that through history governments have always debased currency in order to fund their wars and other boondoggles. In the past this involved clipping coins, reducing the precious metal content and so on. In more recent history, our enlightened rulers have replaced the metal entirely with paper, which has the unfortunate property of falling to its marginal cost of production (i.e., that of toilet paper). Better still, now that much of our money exists in electronic format, when it ultimately falls to its marginal cost of production (i.e., zero), the only protection for the populace is the value inherent in their coins. Consequently, you should recognize that when a government replaces a valuable metal in a coin (say, copper) for a much less valuable metal (say, steel) that is a direct attack by the government on its own population. Your only hope to save yourself is to hoard the coins made of valuable metals before everyone else catches on and they disappear.
Some of my working time is spent in Ghana, West Africa, where the currency, the cedi fell from roughly par with the US dollar in the late 1960s to about 1/10,000 of a US dollar today. The pessawa coin (1/100 of a cedi) was made of copper (I think) and its face value is about 1/10,000 of one cent (US). This is obviously far below the metal content of the coin, but you can forget about going to the bank and ordering 10,000 rolls for 50 cents--they all disappeared decades ago, but you still find them occasionally being used as barter in the various markets, with a value that is closer to the metal value than the currency value. People who hoarded coins in Ghana were far better off than those who denominated their wealth in paper.
Not all who wander are lost. |
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2007 : 17:47:59
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quote:
Originally posted by mickeyman
Don't forget that through history governments have always debased currency in order to fund their wars and other boondoggles. In the past this involved clipping coins, reducing the precious metal content and so on. In more recent history, our enlightened rulers have replaced the metal entirely with paper, which has the unfortunate property of falling to its marginal cost of production (i.e., that of toilet paper). Better still, now that much of our money exists in electronic format, when it ultimately falls to its marginal cost of production (i.e., zero), the only protection for the populace is the value inherent in their coins. Consequently, you should recognize that when a government replaces a valuable metal in a coin (say, copper) for a much less valuable metal (say, steel) that is a direct attack by the government on its own population. Your only hope to save yourself is to hoard the coins made of valuable metals before everyone else catches on and they disappear.
Some of my working time is spent in Ghana, West Africa, where the currency, the cedi fell from roughly par with the US dollar in the late 1960s to about 1/10,000 of a US dollar today. The pessawa coin (1/100 of a cedi) was made of copper (I think) and its face value is about 1/10,000 of one cent (US). This is obviously far below the metal content of the coin, but you can forget about going to the bank and ordering 10,000 rolls for 50 cents--they all disappeared decades ago, but you still find them occasionally being used as barter in the various markets, with a value that is closer to the metal value than the currency value. People who hoarded coins in Ghana were far better off than those who denominated their wealth in paper.
Not all who wander are lost.
Thank you for that first hand report concerning a hyperinflation.
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Fanaticism is doubling one's efforts, yet forgetting one's purpose.
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mickeyman
Penny Pincher Member
Canada
243 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2007 : 10:35:38
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Actually, as bad as the hyperinflation in Ghana was, what was worse were the deflationary episodes. In late 1996, the government decided to release high denomination notes (it was taking too many wheelbarrows of the old bills to buy large items). The IMF responded by saying that they first had to remove an equivalent amount of currency from circulation before they could release the new notes.
Money disappeared. The economy screeched to a halt. Starvation walked the land. Even though inflation completely stopped, interest rates were still in excess of 30%, which killed business. If you had money, you made a killing, but because of the previous hyperinflation, nobody was stupid enough to actually have money--everyone was in the habit of immediately exchanging money for goods (or foreign currency if they could get it). This behaviour, which worked tolerably well during inflation, was mercilessly punished during the deflation, which lasted about a year, before they were back on the hyperinflationary path again. Hyperinflation was bad, but at least there was a steady trickle of money so that people could survive.
Not all who wander are lost. |
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2007 : 16:28:41
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Thanks again. If you ever want to tell about this more in detail please feel free to start a topic in our inflation/deflation forum. I'm intersted in reading these kind of stories. They may give us some insight into what's in our future.
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Fanaticism is doubling one's efforts, yet forgetting one's purpose.
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mickeyman
Penny Pincher Member
Canada
243 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2007 : 20:50:00
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OK
The main reason I put these postings here is they related to the question about whether coin hoarding was a way to "stick it to the man". My thinking is that coin hoarding is really about preventing the man from sticking it to you.
Not all who wander are lost. |
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DadaOrwell
Penny Sorter Member
99 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2007 : 21:09:39
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Porcupine wrote:
<<and look at it now, it seems just about impossible to dislodge.>>
I think I will go buy some more pennies.
after digging ron paul
see you at porcupine fest later this week i hope
Want freedom?
Move to New Hampshire!
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Edited by - DadaOrwell on 06/17/2007 21:11:37 |
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ME CO
Penny Pincher Member
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 06/20/2007 : 21:29:00
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Interesting post. I am new to this hoarding thing- I always saved my change but cashed it in at least once a year for wall paper LOL. I went on a crusade amongst my friends and employees when I heard it cost the govMint 4 cents to make one penny and were spending 50 Billion dollars a year making them when a$$holes are throwing them in the trash- why not throw them in a bucket and give them to charity, at least they would get back into circulation that way. I agree with hoarding the copper ones- don't see the sence in saving the zinc ones but to each his own.
As to the New American Revolution unfortunately the citizens would lose this one. Read somewhere that 60% of our population works directly or indirectly for the govment- no doubt taking 4 people to do what one ambitious citizen could do.
I haven't had a bank account for many years- the IRS would just take it anyways, so I am a cash and carry kinda guy. I went to the bank once to cash a $1400 check and the cashier asked me how I wanted it and I told her all ones- she flat refused, imagine the reaction if I had said all nickels haha.
I have yet to buy a box of nickels or pennies to sort- maybe tomarrow. I had about a gallon of change when I found this place and it took me a good long time to pull the copper pennies out of that bunch- the nickels were easy haha. Dimes and quarters just had to look for silver- NO LUCK. Banks around here are charging 2% for the change counter for over $50 even with an account so is getting bothersome in that area (returning zincs for me).
My dad has two bags of 90% he bought in 1999 for not much more than the face value of $500 each, dimes and quarters. He was shocked when I looked up on coinflation the meltvalue- I think he paid more for them than he remembers but both bags together are worth $9500 now- anybody know what silver was going for in 99? Mom became enamored with the merc dimes and wanted to separate them out- lota fun sorting silver but hard on the eyes- easier than sorting copper and zinc though for some reason.
I'm done- just wanted to add my penny, .02 Mark |
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horgad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1641 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 07:34:26
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Silver ranged from about $4.90 to $5.35 in 1999. It is currently at $13.15. So about a 160% gain in 8 years...better than a stick in the eye.
At $5.00 a Troy ounce a dime would have had about 36 cents worth of silver in it (2.25 grams silver * $5.00 per troy ounce / 31.1035 grams). So your dad probably paid around 3.6 times face compared to the almost 9.5 times face that they sell for today.
I bet he wishes that he bought more...
Welcome to the board and happy hoarding. |
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ME CO
Penny Pincher Member
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 18:42:59
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Yea was a good deal for dear ole dad. On an up to date note I took the plunge today and stopped at the bank... felt like an idiot asking for $50 in pennies but it will get easier right haha. Anyways was curious #1 to see ifn they were gonna try to charge me (like they tried on ME paycheck) and #2 ifn the boxes would be all bright and shiny or nice and dull. #1 no charge, #2 nice and DULL. Guess I will be busy for awhile with those as I can't see paying $500 for a sorter. See ifn I can add something to that other post scorewise. Thanks for the welcome. One thing I was gonna get a box of nickels but didn't know how many rolls in a box- $100 worth?
Mark |
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Hoarding to "Fight The Man"
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