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Gr33nday43
New Member
Uzbekistan
10 Posts |
 Posted - 05/20/2009 : 20:33:31
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Up until about a month ago I didn't honestly realize how much time and money is wasted handsorting, if investing in copper. I can buy copper pennies at 1.4 cents a piece, all from the comfort of my home. It would take me at least 10 hours to sort $400 of pennies by hand (with a scale), and that time could have been spent at the least flipping burgers making $7.25 minus taxes, or an even more productive job. I could also just spend an extra $45 to buy those pennies from a member here on the forum. I didn't even take into consideration the amount of hours and coaxing it would take to get $400 in pennies. What motivates you, as a hand sorter, to sort, other than the occasional rare find?
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buyingsilvers
Penny Collector Member
441 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2009 : 20:36:39
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| Handsorting is a hobby. Machine sorting is also a hobby, but it makes sorting become profitable. |
Edited by - buyingsilvers on 05/20/2009 20:37:06 |
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vrbsroma
Penny Collector Member
394 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2009 : 20:43:16
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| Hand sorting is a hobby, not for profit. I probably lose money doing so, but it's enjoyable to me and sometimes relaxing (when I'm not stressed that I missed an indian). If I purchased a Ryedale I would have to quit my day job and find another 50 source and dump banks; that could be very addicting! |
As far as I know, it is stated "In God We Trust" on the US dollar. How can I trust this currency if I do not believe in God?
Possession is nine-tenths of the law.
When I give my two cents, they're always copper! |
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Corsair
Penny Hoarding Member
811 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2009 : 20:46:03
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| I love my hand sorting. Right now, it's probably not worth it. But if copper cents were to get four or five times face, then my hobby would become profitable. Untill, it's something I do for fun, for the thrill of the hunt, and because I just love coins. |
So long, Realcent 1. Come visit us at Realcent.org! |
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highroller4321
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2648 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2009 : 21:10:47
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I dont hand sort anymore, but you guys are looking at this wrong. Hand sorting is also profitable, just on a small scale. Your handsorted copper vrs my machine sorted copper still brings the same money!
Yes, it is time consuming, but if that time is normaly spent watching tv or something along those lines, than its not wasted time.
Yes, it is simply easier to just buy the sorted copper already though. |
Copper Penny Investing
www.portlandmint.com |
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coppernicus
Penny Collector Member
USA
383 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2009 : 23:36:27
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| You also have to look at when your break even point is. If you hand sort from day one you have not spent any money so any profit truly is profit. If you spend $500 on a machine to sort you have to sort and sell $1250 of copper before you break even if you get 1.4 times face value. At 25% copper you would have to sort through six thousand face value in pennies amd sell the copper prior to breaking even. |
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CoinHunter53562
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1805 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2009 : 23:44:23
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quote:
Originally posted by vrbsroma
Hand sorting is a hobby, not for profit. I probably lose money doing so, but it's enjoyable to me and sometimes relaxing (when I'm not stressed that I missed an indian). If I purchased a Ryedale I would have to quit my day job and find another 50 source and dump banks; that could be very addicting!
Agree 100%. I dont look at it as a job. I look at it as a treasure hunt of sorts, and a nice break from everyday life/work. Sure I could buy a Ryedale and crank up the volume many times what I do now, but to look for the "treasures" I would still have to hand sort anyway. I search Zincolns for Wide America varieties, and some doubled die varieties, and look through copper cents for wheats, semi-key and key dates, and for varieties. |
My hobby: collecting real money 1 copper cent or nickel at a time.
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Edited by - CoinHunter53562 on 05/20/2009 23:47:38 |
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CoinHunter53562
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1805 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2009 : 23:47:00
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quote:
Originally posted by coppernicus
You also have to look at when your break even point is. If you hand sort from day one you have not spent any money so any profit truly is profit. If you spend $500 on a machine to sort you have to sort and sell $1250 of copper before you break even if you get 1.4 times face value. At 25% copper you would have to sort through six thousand face value in pennies amd sell the copper prior to breaking even.
Some good points, and I dont think your calculations factor in the costs associated with acquiring the coins to sort, and dumping the rejects.
Point being that hand sorting and machine sorting both have their pros and cons, and it's up to the individual and their goals. Some sort copper with the intent to resell them for a profit, while others sort with the intent to hoard. There's nothing wrong with either way. |
My hobby: collecting real money 1 copper cent or nickel at a time.
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fb101
Administrator
USA
2856 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 00:22:37
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If I was regularly clearing 1.4X face on the pennies, I'd switch to machine. Then I'm looking for immediate ROI. Right now I hand sort, watch for varieties, and hoard until the market comes back.
If you're just looking for ROI, hand sorting is not worth it. You have to enjoy it for other reasons.
I think it's definitely more fun than flipping burgers. |
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harley1
Penny Pincher Member
140 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 14:05:10
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| i would like to know where you can get coppers from the comfort of your home for 1.4 cents each which is equal to $2.03 per pound.if your price your talking about includes shipping,you PM me. |
Today is the tomorrow we worried about yesterday. |
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barrytrot
Administrator
USA
721 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 14:33:59
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Actually, I think sorting can be more profitable than burgers, but you have to take a bit longer view of it.
So you estimate that you can go through $400 worth of pennies in 10 hours. Let's give you a 25% "good" rate and a 1/10 of a percent rate on Wheats in addition.
So that gives you $100 face copper, 40 cents in wheats. Total CURRENT value is $140 + $1.60 = $141.60. Profit = $41.60 which is less than your net $70 for flipping burgers.
However, only a year ago copper was 2x which would give you a profit of $101.60 which is substantially higher than $70. Hourly rate of $10.16.
Will copper return to at least 2x. Yes. I would bet 99% of economists would agree that will occur within the next 3 years, probably less.
So, copper hand sorting is better than burger flipping (also by hand apparently).
And, odds are that you should be able to get some BU 2008 or 2009 rolls which are worth above face as well.
So if your day job is flipping burgers, quit and sort copper. Seriously. And, the copper has intrinsic value so you are safe against inflation. Not so with burger money. |
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Mikep2020
Penny Collector Member
USA
402 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 14:54:28
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| I hand sort for fun, you get to sort out the coppers, find a couple dozen common date wheats, a couple pre-40's wheats, and search for error varieties, S-mints, etc... and other oddball coins. The fun is in the hunting, like the anticipation of what could possible fall out of the next roll of pennies you open. Its not fun to just buy pre-sorted coppers. I'm not doing it for any profit, hoarding the coppers is just a side effect of roll searching. |
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Gr33nday43
New Member
Uzbekistan
10 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 17:06:15
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quote:
Originally posted by barrytrot
Actually, I think sorting can be more profitable than burgers, but you have to take a bit longer view of it.
So you estimate that you can go through $400 worth of pennies in 10 hours. Let's give you a 25% "good" rate and a 1/10 of a percent rate on Wheats in addition.
So that gives you $100 face copper, 40 cents in wheats. Total CURRENT value is $140 + $1.60 = $141.60. Profit = $41.60 which is less than your net $70 for flipping burgers.
However, only a year ago copper was 2x which would give you a profit of $101.60 which is substantially higher than $70. Hourly rate of $10.16.
Will copper return to at least 2x. Yes. I would bet 99% of economists would agree that will occur within the next 3 years, probably less.
So, copper hand sorting is better than burger flipping (also by hand apparently).
And, odds are that you should be able to get some BU 2008 or 2009 rolls which are worth above face as well.
So if your day job is flipping burgers, quit and sort copper. Seriously. And, the copper has intrinsic value so you are safe against inflation. Not so with burger money.
This is exactly the response I was looking for, Barrytrot, and is why I hand sort(along with the thrill of the hunt). |
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vrbsroma
Penny Collector Member
394 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 20:53:02
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Barry, you neglect to factor in the time and costs associated with obtain and returning the coins. Other than that, I think your formula and calculations are a good argument for others around us taking up the "hobby" to turn a profit!
Everyone's got some really good counter points. I guess there are pros and cons to each method. In the end, it comes down to personal preference and budget, for me at least. I would love a cheaper model of the Ryedale if it were more compact as that's one badass machine. To each his own. |
As far as I know, it is stated "In God We Trust" on the US dollar. How can I trust this currency if I do not believe in God?
Possession is nine-tenths of the law.
When I give my two cents, they're always copper! |
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jadedragon
Administrator
Canada
3788 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 21:02:47
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Even if penny sorting does not gain much per hour, it is a profitable - rather then money costing - hobby. Beats watching TV (no profit or loss) or golfing (costly).
I would hate to have a full time job penny sorting as that would be pretty boring work. As a hobby to do when I want to look at coins it's great. |
“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” – George Bernard Shaw.
Why Copper Bullion ~~~ Interview with Silver Bullion Producer Market Harmony
Passive Income blog |
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fb101
Administrator
USA
2856 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 21:05:34
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quote:
Originally posted by harley1
i would like to know where you can get coppers from the comfort of your home for 1.4 cents each which is equal to $2.03 per pound.if your price your talking about includes shipping,you PM me.
The key word in my post was "Clear". On ebay, that means selling $50 copper pennies for about $83 +shipping.
Haven't been getting anything like that for quite a while.
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harley1
Penny Pincher Member
140 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2009 : 11:46:09
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| i can sure say one thing,me being from wisconsin,i am a very very talented beer drinker.now that i am sorting in my spare time on the weekend,my empty beer can box is taking longer to fill up.its pretty tough to get any amount of sorting done when you use only one hand.....lol |
Today is the tomorrow we worried about yesterday. |
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JP_007
Penny Sorter Member
USA
58 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2009 : 17:55:15
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| Personally, the thought of that potential awesome find excites me and I take the copper value as a win win. So you get a box of cents, sort it out by hand, and the worst that can happen is you have no wheats and a low copper percentage(not likely). Just my opinion! Good luck with your sorts! |
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theo
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
588 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2009 : 19:27:42
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| First I'm a hand sorter and, like the others, I don't view my sorting as work. Therefore I tend to not view my sorting time as a "cost." Now I agree that given the fact that a copper penny is worth about 1.4 cents, current profits are limited. However, given the trouble the dollar is in and the fact that U.S. treasury securities may lose their AAA rating for the first time in nearly a century, the price of copper (along with other commodities and PMs) is likely to increase dramatically. Barry talked about the copper penny getting back to 2X face. I think that is a very conservative estimate. If we fall into a hype-inflationary spiral the penny could end up being worth more than the dollar. In that scenario even having as little as a couple hundred rolls would likely make a difference in spending power to help weather the storm. Given my fears, I view sorting as part of my savings plan in addition to a hobby. |
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dakota1955
1000+ Penny Miser Member
2212 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2009 : 21:39:29
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I also started by hand sorting. I then got a ryedale and started going bythe bags to keep the machine running. But now I spending more time going through the coppers one that the ryedale sorted out and looking for s mint mark and others finds.
It is a great and cheap hobby with more upside than downside. |
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2009 : 00:33:40
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It's not a job, it's an adventure!!! I started as a fairly serious hand sorter as well. I noticed the pile of penny boxes I was able to obtain was growing a lot faster than my ability to sort them. By the time I was 200 boxes behind, I realized I was really addicted and I wasn't willing to cut back to the level I could sort by hand. I had been selling off some of the excess copper at a decent price and was able to buy my first Ryedale with the proceeds from the copper sale. The machinery allowed me to sort much more in less time, and buy a few other machines. I still hand sort.. but mostly just the coppers.. which I seem to have plenty of to sort through.
Yes, hand sorting.. and machine sorting are worthwhile. I look at it as a hobby that I enjoy doing. You can do it whenever you feel like, for as little or as much time as you want. No matter what happens to the copper market, you still have your money. How many hobbies are that cheap? If you get brand new boxes of pennies, you can flip them for an immediate profit to fund your hoarding. You have the upside of the copper market in the future. And best of all, there is this forum to share stories and ideas with lots of great folks that are similarly afflicted.  |
If your percentages are low.. just sort more. If your percentages are high.. just sort more.
Now selling Copper pennies. 1.6x plus shipping. Limited amounts available. |
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Silver Surfer
Penny Pincher Member
USA
148 Posts |
Posted - 05/26/2009 : 20:21:54
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What motivates me as a hand sorter, other than the occasional rare find?
The thought of missing out on the opportunity to collect and hoard as many copper cents as I can get my hands on. Doing this for the long term. Who knows what they will be worth several years from now? Surely, more than what they are worth now. I like to watch my small hoard grow and feel the cent containers get heavier. If I were more motivated to turn a more immediate profit, I'd buy a Ryedale or two. Right now, I'm content hand sorting.
When the copper cents are all but gone from circulation, it will be too little, too late. I'm leaving them to my son and hopefully will instill in him a desire and interest in saving, collecting, investing in and hoarding items of value, such as copper cents, silver and gold. |
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of it's victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busy-bodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis |
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n/a
deleted
5 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2009 : 00:16:07
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| If you enjoy it, then it is never work. I have never put a dollar value to my relaxing search for copper. The plus is when a treasure is discovered. |
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sheba
Penny Pincher Member
USA
191 Posts |
Posted - 05/28/2009 : 20:34:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Silver Surfer
What motivates me as a hand sorter, other than the occasional rare find?
I sure agree with this comment! Specially after a visit to my local coin dealer today  . I hand sort as a hobby and to find, as Silver Surfer' mentioned, that 'possible' rare penny. It's relaxing to me, though I sure don't 'accumulate' at a very fast rate.
However, I have found some nice coins and the other day I found a really 'nice' penny. I always check the 1983s and 1984s, (and other possible error pennies). Never have found anything until a couple days ago. I picked up a well used 1984 penny and checked Mr. Lincoln's ear. And bingo!  there it was ... that ledgendary 'double ear lobe' ... couldn't be plainer even though it was well used. Not only was it well used, but the reverse top edge was quite badly corroded  I took it to my coin dealer today, and to make a long story short, walked out with a $50.00 bill. That'll buy a lot more penny rolls to check!
That to me is the fun of it all ... the possibilites that exist. Surely there's still a 1914D or a 1922 no D or even a 1955 Double Die floating around out there Maybe one of those is waiting from me to open a .50 penny roll and find it!
Happy hand sorting to all who do that!
sheba |
woof ... wag ... whine |
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AGgressive Metal
Administrator
USA
1937 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2009 : 16:33:52
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| You have to factor in the odd wheat penny that is worth a couple bucks. I found a 1909 hand-sorting, for instance. |
And he that hath lyberte ought to kepe hit wel / For nothyng is better than lyberte / For lyberte shold not be wel sold for alle the gold and syluer of all the world.
-Caxton's edition of Aesop's Fables, 1484 |
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SANITARIUM_INMATE
Penny Pincher Member
211 Posts |
Posted - 05/29/2009 : 21:47:40
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| I love the treasure hunting involved with hand sorting. I have found a lot of wide am coins even a 99 that is badly corroded. The 1983 DDr I found was nice and when it sold for over $200 it really opened my eyes to hand sorting more. Yeah I want a Ryedale but I will wait til I can afford one after finding a few more coppers and wide am's I may be able to. Hand sorting is relaxing to me after a long day of work, or after you put the 3 year old and 1 year old to bed at night. I don't see it as a cost either cause I love coins. I collect more than just copper pennies and when I sell my coppers I will more than likely buy a rare key date coin for my collection. Then when I am gone my kids will get them and hopefully have a better life than I have had. Remember "it's not always about personal gain, thinking of others is the greatest gift of all". |
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Is it worth to hand sort?
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