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theo
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
588 Posts |
 Posted - 04/01/2009 : 00:36:47
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Thought you guys might want to see this. Nothing surprising but its nice to see that Rawls (of SurvivalBlog.com fame) still supports nickel. . .AHEM. . collecting. Of course he is not as excited about penny sorting, but nobody's perfect. 
Letter Re: Should We Still be Saving Nickels?
Dear James,
Do you still recommend saving nickels [as you suggested in SurvivalBlog, in 2007]? Thanks for all you do. I'm planning on ordering the new edition of your novel on April 8th, and I'm currently re-reading the original [edition]. May God continue to bless you and your family. Sincerely, - Steve B.
JWR Replies: Yes, nickels (American five cent pieces) are still "the pauper's silver". Since base metals prices pulled back in advance of current the recession and have remained low, it looks like we may have another one or two years available to amass nickels. (For now, they are still being minted, with their long-standing metal content--75% copper, and 25% nickel.) But once double digit (or higher) inflation kicks in, nickels will likely be the first US coins to be dropped from circulation. Zinc pennies will follow soon after. In a major inflation cycle, eventually all coins--except perhaps for ersatz coin plastic or aluminum tokens--will be dropped, since their base metal content will begin to grossly exceed their face value.
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Edited by - theo on 04/01/2009 00:38:39 |
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CoinHunter53562
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1805 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2009 : 09:23:06
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| Good info....I dont actively acquire them from banks or do any coin roll searching, but I do save each and every one that I come across in circulation. I have been thinking for a few weeks now that I should buy a box or two and just put it in storage. |
My hobby: collecting real money 1 copper cent or nickel at a time.
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jadedragon
Administrator
Canada
3788 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2009 : 13:05:18
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quote:
Originally posted by CoinHunter53562
Good info....I dont actively acquire them from banks or do any coin roll searching, but I do save each and every one that I come across in circulation. I have been thinking for a few weeks now that I should buy a box or two and just put it in storage.
A box or two, or ten, or a hundred or so boxes. It's up to you. |
“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” – George Bernard Shaw.
Why Copper Bullion ~~~ Interview with Silver Bullion Producer Market Harmony
Passive Income blog |
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2009 : 16:59:12
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| I'm still holding them but I haven't bought them at the banks for a long time. If nothing else they make a good deflation hedge or cash on hand. They could always be worth more for their melt value over face value again once the base metal commodites take off. I have been thinking about buying more again. |
Realcent.forumco.com disclosure. Please read.
All posts either by the members, moderators, and the administration of http://realcent.forumco.com are for your edification and amusement only. It is not the intent of realcent.forumco.com or its host to provide investment, medical, matrimonial, legal, security or tax advice and nothing posted here should be considered to be so. All rights reserved.
Think positive. |
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daviscfad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1664 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2009 : 17:41:16
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i have been thinking about cashing mine in and buying more .999 canadian nickels |
Inquiring minds want to know |
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Corsair
Penny Hoarding Member
811 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2009 : 18:50:04
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| I search nickels, and have two boxes coming in for me for the first time tomorrow. I think I am going to make it a weekly thing if the search is successful. As for keeping all nickels, I have heard of it first and only on this forum, and as I've said before somewhere, if the metal value inches towards 100%, I think many people could have their banks order them a few dozen boxes without a problem. So I'll stay away from hoarding for now, but it's still definitely in the back of my mind. |
So long, Realcent 1. Come visit us at Realcent.org! |
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Frugi
Administrator
USA
627 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2009 : 20:08:41
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| I have about $200.oo face in Canadian .999 Ni nickels all from the 1960's, all uncirculated. I bought these at face from local coin shops. I consider this my nickle stash and hope if SHTF people realize the metal content is PURE, which is the only way you can scrap Ni. If you ever try to scrap the US nickels they are worth alot less due to the fact that the Copper content is considered a contamination. I am not saying to or not to hoard or save, but for melting they are bad news. For trading, speculating or saving, whatever.. envision them as 1940's 35% silver and manganese US nickels which have a "VALUE" but it is only an idea, not the real cost of melting is calculated when dealing with these "contaminated metals". If saving for speculation in Ni prices I would ONLY save Canadian Ni Nickels I think it is all before 1981 or 82 are Ni except for a few years all the way back to 1922, I think. Anyhow US nickels are not bad to have on hand I might have $50.oo worth here and there, but only because I remember according to coinflation they had gotten up to $0.09 in metal value, and I thought it was interesting, but if you are to try and melt them at a scrapper, you would get less than $0.05, even when done in large amounts. I scrapped cents and nickels both US and Canadian before the ban was placed on melting US cents and nickels. I made BIG$$$ on scrapping Canadian when Ni was $25.oo+ /lb. ( I bought from 3 midwest coin dealers & then sold over 2000 lbs. of Canadian Ni to one large scale metal refiner in one day). I only got 60% of spot for pure .999 Ni, which amounted to be $15.00 or so per lb., an easy $10,000.00 profit in a matter of hours. ( I never put up a dime of my own money. I had an investor/friend who trusted me, and put up the $10,000 to buy 2000 lbs. of Ni, I then made the deals, did all the leg work and pickups, dropoffs, etc. We split the profit 50/50. the end. and then Ni started dropping and the fairytale ended. I kept over $200.oo in face, but only the nicest ones, I still probably have a couple bags here or there of circulated ones. I also found about 50 nice rare dates like 1923's & 1925's or whatever along with a bunch a prooflikes uncircs dating back to the 30's. I trust Ni is a great investment I am just leery of scrappers being willing to pay for Ni that has 75% copper in it. Hey just my opinion, I know there is alot of US nickel lovers here so I hope I don't step on anyones toes. |
Real Eyes Realize Real Lies
_________________________
http://inflation.us
Save the US Cent! http://www.facebook.com/#/group.php?gid=192523715681&ref=mf
www.pre82.com <-- My website. |
Edited by - Frugi on 04/02/2009 07:52:57 |
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Robarons
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2009 : 20:27:20
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I agree with frugi. I doubt very many refiners/scrap yards will pay for the 75% Nickel and 25% copper fairly. It would seem the scrap yards in my area would only give you stainless steel or some kind of cupronickel prices. However nickels would be considered 'premium scrap', but because there is so many, some would have to scrapped so make them somewhat valuable.
It the case of saving boxes without sorting, pennies seem to be a better bet. At least its either 95% copper or 95% zinc. I would only do this if Zinc pennies were to return above melt.
Once again no need to offend or make anyone mad, nickel coins are good to store for cash reserves, do not have the time to sort, or have a lot capital laying around. |
Robber Baron= Robarons |
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theo
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
588 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2009 : 21:03:48
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| Wow I didn't realize nickel got up to $25. It sounds like you made the most of that opportunity. Anyway you made some interesting points. However, I'm not building a stash of nickels (or pennies for that matter) in anticipation of selling them for scrap. My copper/nickel stash is actually a hedge against a hyper-inflationary collapse. I honestly don't see a lot of melting going on in this scenario. If the dollar became worthless, what would you get in exchange for your metal? Also, if a collapse occurred we would still need something to act as a medium of exchange to keep some semblance of commerce going; that's where our coinage made of nickel, copper and zinc comes in. Of course they are inconvenient and bulky, but they are also made of metal that has recognized value and is of limited supply. In short, our coins would be too valuable as money to melt. |
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daviscfad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1664 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2009 : 21:47:23
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Hey guys the US nickels are 75% copper and 25% nickel not the other way around |
Inquiring minds want to know |
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Robarons
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2009 : 22:29:24
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Sorry about that one.
I figure in a hyper-inflation or SHTF scenario, all coins would have value, including dimes,quarters and halves along with nickels. Gold and silver would also take president over nickels. But it is hard to say if $1 worth the silver (like a 90% dime) or 20 nickles/100 pennies would be better to hold in those types of environments.
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Robber Baron= Robarons |
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theo
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
588 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2009 : 00:44:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Robarons
Sorry about that one.
I figure in a hyper-inflation or SHTF scenario, all coins would have value, including dimes,quarters and halves along with nickels. Gold and silver would also take president over nickels. But it is hard to say if $1 worth the silver (like a 90% dime) or 20 nickles/100 pennies would be better to hold in those types of environments.
Interesting question. I would probably lean toward the silver dime as it is and will be harder to come by than 20 nickels or 100 pennies. Since silver is regarded as a precious metal in addition to an industrial metal, it should outperform pure industrial metals such as copper and nickel.
Of course the advantage of nickels/pennies is that they can be acquired quietly and in small amounts where as acquiring silver (and gold) usually leaves a paper trail. Also pennies/nickels are easier to get rid of right now; just drag them to the bank |
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Lemon Thrower
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1588 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2009 : 05:29:07
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| i would think copper cents will sell for more than face far sooner than US nickels. I never understood Rawls rationale. |
Buying:
Peace/Morgan G+ at $15.00
copper cents at 1.3X
wheat pennies at 3X
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theo
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
588 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2009 : 20:18:16
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You must be logged in to see this link.
Rawls makes several arguments in favor of the nickel (see the above link), some of which don't make complete sense to me. For example he states that the pennies represent much more bulk compared to face value than the nickel. However in the event of a currency collapse I don't believe face value will mean as much as metal content. Based on my rough calculations, a roll of nickels has about the same amount of copper as a roll of pennies (give or take 5%). The question is; does the additional 1.25 grams of nickel give the nickel an advantage or does the combination of nickel and copper make the nickel unattractive for melting? As I said before, I don't think much melting will be done in a collapse scenario.
Rawls' best argument is that it is only a matter of time before government changes the metal content of the nickel or discontinues it altogether. The Canadians have been issuing steel coins for about ten years. Since the the nickel has the highest metal value to face value ratio (almost 57%) of any coin currently being minted, we might as well stock up on them now while its still fairly easy to do so.
Personally, I pull both nickels and pennies from the banks. Although I enjoy hand sorting through the pennies, I believe that buying nickels is a good way to quickly build a decent stock of copper (and nickel). Besides, I think the nickel is the most interesting coin we have. The other day someone asked me that since the nickel has half the face value of a dime, why is it twice as large? Good question. |
Edited by - theo on 04/02/2009 20:19:09 |
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2009 : 20:29:07
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quote:
Originally posted by theo
You must be logged in to see this link.
The other day someone asked me that since the nickel has half the face value of a dime, why is it twice as large? Good question.
Because we live in a bazarro world were value is worthless and worthless is valued. |
Realcent.forumco.com disclosure. Please read.
All posts either by the members, moderators, and the administration of http://realcent.forumco.com are for your edification and amusement only. It is not the intent of realcent.forumco.com or its host to provide investment, medical, matrimonial, legal, security or tax advice and nothing posted here should be considered to be so. All rights reserved.
Think positive. |
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theo
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
588 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2009 : 22:34:49
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| Since we were on the subject of nickels I decided to look through three rolls I bought today. I usually don't check the rolls I buy because the first 20 or 30 I checked turned up nothing. Anyway, in today's rolls I find a 1942 "P" (which I believe is 35% silver) and a 1939. I guess I should start checking again. |
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Lemon Thrower
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1588 Posts |
Posted - 04/03/2009 : 04:57:21
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| rawls overlooks the fact that nickels cost 5 times as much as pennies and therefore any sort of melt premium would require a more substantial rise in nickel than copper. nickels are a nice idea but copper pennies are better. |
Buying:
Peace/Morgan G+ at $15.00
copper cents at 1.3X
wheat pennies at 3X
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Robarons
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2009 : 10:23:56
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| I think that if the mint released a new steel or de-based nickel, they would be still pretty easy to get them. Canada, as an example, changed their .999 nickels to .250 nickels 27 years ago (I believe) and some of our northern members are still pulling 15% returns on .999 and even higher reutrns on .250 nickels, even after private companies and a mint program. So time is on our side if the need to pick-up nickels ever occurs. |
Robber Baron= Robarons |
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faithnotwork
Penny Pincher Member
USA
121 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2009 : 18:50:05
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| Copper pennies are over face, next is nickels. Way down the line is post 64 dimes, quarters and halves. I'm cashing in dimes and quarters to buy more silver and nickels (and ammo) |
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horgad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1641 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2009 : 11:08:14
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Scenario one (inflation): base metals prices go up 80%
Your investment in nickels has not changed. In other words, Nickels and FIAT perform the same up until this point. However, your investment in pennies even though bought above face has gone up ~80% depending on the market for CU pennies.
Scenario two (another round of deflation): base metals prices collapse
Your investment in nickels has not changed. Your investment in pennies has lost 25% or so depending on how much over face you paid for them.
Take your pick, but with nickels you are giving up the chance of a lot of gain to prevent the chance of a 25% loss... |
Edited by - horgad on 04/06/2009 12:54:02 |
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theo
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
588 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2009 : 11:41:20
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quote:
Originally posted by horgad
Scenario one (massive inflation): base metals prices triple
Your investment in nickels has not changed. In other words, Nickels and FIAT perform the same up until this point. However, your investment in pennies even though bought above face has tripled.
Scenario two (another round of deflation): base metals prices collapse
Your investment in nickels has not changed. Your investment in pennies has lost 25% or so depending on how much over face you paid for them.
Take your pick, but with nickels you are giving up the chance of a lot of gain to prevent the chance of a 25% loss...
If base metal prices triple how will our nickel investment "remain unchanged" when the metal value of the nickel is close to 9 cents? Also I don't see any downside to the copper pennies, not even 25%. As most us are sorters, very few (if any) are paying more than face for copper pennies. The only additional investment here is time and effort. |
Edited by - theo on 04/06/2009 11:48:22 |
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horgad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1641 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2009 : 12:47:03
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quote:
Originally posted by theo
quote:
Originally posted by horgad
Scenario one (massive inflation): base metals prices triple
Your investment in nickels has not changed. In other words, Nickels and FIAT perform the same up until this point. However, your investment in pennies even though bought above face has tripled.
Scenario two (another round of deflation): base metals prices collapse
Your investment in nickels has not changed. Your investment in pennies has lost 25% or so depending on how much over face you paid for them.
Take your pick, but with nickels you are giving up the chance of a lot of gain to prevent the chance of a 25% loss...
If base metal prices triple how will our nickel investment "remain unchanged" when the metal value of the nickel is close to 9 cents? Also I don't see any downside to the copper pennies, not even 25%. As most us are sorters, very few (if any) are paying more than face for copper pennies. The only additional investment here is time and effort.
You are right my brain backfired...it would be the first 80% of "inflation" where nickels only tread water.
I compared buying sorted CU pennies with buying nickels because the labor involved is about the same. Sorting out your own CU pennies is a different game altogether.
Editing my post now. |
Edited by - horgad on 04/06/2009 12:54:46 |
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Lemon Thrower
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1588 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2009 : 14:02:33
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i dont' think anyone here is paying above face for pennies or nickels.
so if the price of the metal declines, all we lose is time.
if copper and nickel both go up, you make more money in copper because it has less to travel before the melt price exceeds the cost.
I think Rauls is assuming there is no practical way to separate pre-82's from zincs. if the choice is between nickels or zincs, nickels is the right choice. but that is a false dichotomy. |
Buying:
Peace/Morgan G+ at $15.00
copper cents at 1.3X
wheat pennies at 3X
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AGgressive Metal
Administrator
USA
1937 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2009 : 09:12:12
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| Diversify is the answer. Gold, silver, nickel, copper, ammo, food, aluminum. You can't predict what will spike up the most during inflation, so best to cover all bases. If you have limited resources, food, silver, and ammo would be my suggestion. |
And he that hath lyberte ought to kepe hit wel / For nothyng is better than lyberte / For lyberte shold not be wel sold for alle the gold and syluer of all the world.
-Caxton's edition of Aesop's Fables, 1484 |
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Lemon Thrower
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1588 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2009 : 09:37:53
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| yes, but the question is why should you buy nickels now when they sell for a significant premium over melt (5 cents) when pennies can be bought for 1 cent at a discount to melt already? |
Buying:
Peace/Morgan G+ at $15.00
copper cents at 1.3X
wheat pennies at 3X
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theo
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
588 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2009 : 11:24:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Lemon Thrower
yes, but the question is why should you buy nickels now when they sell for a significant premium over melt (5 cents) when pennies can be bought for 1 cent at a discount to melt already?
Because, although nickels are more expensive, they don't usually require sorting or dumping. You can just buy the rolls and tuck them away. So if you don't have a Rydale and have the time to sort through 10 boxes of pennies a week, nickels are good way accumulate a little home wealth quickly. Besides some of us think they look cool.  |
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Should We Still be Saving Nickels? Rawls responds
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