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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
 Posted - 03/14/2008 : 18:45:22
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I'm looking for positive ideas or opinion as to what can be done now to help save the economy or at least give us some damage control? In other words, what would you like to see done to help get us out of this mess we are in? Anyone
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Think positive. |
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deleted
15 Posts |
 Posted - 03/14/2008 : 20:12:47
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The best thing the government can do is stop meddling in the economy. The reason for this mess is because of all the tinkering we have been doing through subsidized loans and manipulation of the interest rate. With tainted price signals coming from the Fed, banks over lent in the housing sector which caused our economy to shift heavily toward construction. Well, it turns out that the government is not able to accurately predict demand for anything, so they ended up encouraging the expansion of the housing market beyond demand.
So what needs to happen know is creative destruction. The economy needs to restructure itself in a more efficient manner. This is a good thing. We should be encouraging the market to sort itself out. We should *not* be trying to stop it from happening. It will be painful now, but it will be even more painful later if we try to intervene through price controls, "liquidity" manipulations, etc. etc. |
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eharrison
Penny Pincher Member
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2008 : 20:24:47
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Hear Hear to that vinnie! It is called the private sector for a reason- meaning the government, especially at the Federal level, should stay the hell OUT!
Markets go through bull and bear cycles and preventing either from happening is a bad idea.
As for a solution? People/sheeple have to get wise to the tentacles that have weaved through the market and implore their voices (senators, reps. etc) to hack them off. Also vote (granted that voting is subject to manipulation these days) if those in power are scum (95% are) kick them to the curb and look for someone in the mold or Ron Paul-and the constitution.
The best solution? Make sure #1 is taken care of and then educate and help others. Sounds cortastic but to some extent...we ARE all in this together. :) |
Freedom is popular
That's why I voted
Ron Paul! |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 00:24:04
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...what would you like to see done to help get us out of this mess we are in?"
First off, have the government declare a cease fire on the war on savers. Make interest from banks and credit unions tax exempt. Encourage saving as not only the right thing to do but as the only way a person can hope to have a stable future.
Second, educate (or re-educate) the public that debt is not the road to prosperity. Debt used wisely can lead to improvements in one's standard of living but the debt Must Someday be REPAID.
Third, find ways to pay off the national debt, or at least find resources to be earmarked to pay off the debt. In the US there are millions of acres of land under the governments care, some of these lands can be used as natural resources to be sold or exchanged to reduce the debt. A nation that can pay its debts is a nation that can get future investments.
I know many will howl in outrage at the very idea of accessing some of the resources in the US, especially in national forests or on land under the jurisdiction of the BLM, but either the government legally allows these resources to be utilizedand taxes be collected on them, or the nation goes borke and illegal logging/mining get these resources without any money going towards the government or its debt. Such things go on iverseas in weak or bankrupt governments, what makes you believe it wouldn't happen here?
Lastly, encourage manufacturing to stay in the US. The idea that a nation can be a service economy and does not need to produce things is a one way street to ruin, especially if the manufacturers overseas decide to stop selling finished goods to the US. What will a service economy sell if the supply of goods dries up? A question no economist ever thought to ask.
There are other ideas but these are the only ones I can think of right now. |
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deleted
15 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 01:22:51
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quote:
Originally posted by pencilvanian
Lastly, encourage manufacturing to stay in the US. The idea that a nation can be a service economy and does not need to produce things is a one way street to ruin, especially if the manufacturers overseas decide to stop selling finished goods to the US. What will a service economy sell if the supply of goods dries up? A question no economist ever thought to ask.
There's no need to encourage domestic manufacturing. As imported goods become expensive, domestic goods will become competitive. Price signals will tell entrepreneurs to stop investing in the service industry and start investing in manufacturing. This is all the encouragement manufacturing needs. |
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 18:25:53
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| To encourage U.S. manufacturing the suggestion has been made to give a tax break on all durable U.S. made goods. |
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All posts either by the members, moderators, and the administration of http://realcent.forumco.com are for your edification and amusement only. It is not the intent of realcent.forumco.com or its host to provide investment, medical, matrimonial, legal, security or tax advice and nothing posted here should be considered to be so. All rights reserved.
Think positive. |
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Tourney64
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1035 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 21:49:04
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| Need to secure the borders. Illegals are having a significant negative impact on our econmomy. Taxes are increasing at an alarming rate due to providing health care, retirement, bi-lingual education, overcrowded prisons, to illegals. Gasoline usage is increasing due to the population in the US increasing so dramatically. Fine any company that is found to be hiring illegals and 2nd offense is jail time. Americans will be needing these jobs as unemployment is starting to rise. Less taxes encourage investment by businesses. |
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fiatboy
Administrator
912 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2008 : 22:48:59
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Monetary policy must change. All the saving and fiscal responsibility in the world can't make up for fiat-based fractional reserve banking policies. Change is unlikely to occur, however, because the problems are systemic. So what can we do? Only so much. I really like pencilvanian's first two suggestions:
quote:
First off, have the government declare a cease fire on the war on savers. Make interest from banks and credit unions tax exempt. Encourage saving as not only the right thing to do but as the only way a person can hope to have a stable future.
Second, educate (or re-educate) the public that debt is not the road to prosperity. Debt used wisely can lead to improvements in one's standard of living but the debt Must Someday be REPAID.
Good topic, Ardent Listener!
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"Bart, it's not about how many stocks you have, it's about how much copper wire you can get out of the building." --- Homer Simpson |
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silverhalide
Penny Sorter Member
92 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2008 : 16:06:01
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It is pretty sad but whatever they are doing now [(inflating the dollar) will never fix the underlying problem] but it will produce the least amount of pain over the short and medium run and gives you an opportunity to take action. i.e move out of the country or massively hoard select tangible assets, gives you time to be more self sufficient. It also shoulders our burden onto the world banks.
I feel the path we are taking will likely continue until our general population's standard of living matches with the likes of China, Russia and India. Time frame is unknown though.
I don't think encouraging savings will help unless our currency is backed by an asset. Fat chance. Look at Japan since the 1987 bubble whose population are ardent savers. Their market corrected by 2/3rds.
Our government isn't in a position to massively de-size since regulation and compliance in itself a large portion of the economy. Nor can our tax rates soar to levels of most European nations and our trade deficit will never improve given the likelihood of peak oil and our manufacturing economy being noncompetitive in most instances.
I think our eventual fate would be tempered with the introduction of new industries like green energies for instance but it won't completely solve it.
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Cerulean
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
993 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2008 : 10:44:47
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Scrap Social Security. Divide the remaining money into Medicaid and paying the national debt. You have a right to life and liberty, but not housing or income, and the govt should at least take care of your life if you cannot. I want to think that at the very least, no-one in America should die because they are too poor to see a doctor. Seniors in need shouldn't have to worry about their health care costs, within reason. Less aid for former smokers and high-risk cases.
Scrap Medicare. Divide the remaining money into Medicaid and paying off the national debt. Govt entitlements should be distributed purely on ability to pay, not merely by age. If a rich senior can pay their own medical bills, they should.
This alone should reduce the government to 1/3 its current size. Compared to entitlement programs, national defense spending is not an issue.
Further, end the War on Drugs, the biggest government spending boondoggle ever. By legalizing marijuana, we can end the spending on police, courts, prisons, and put that spending towards rehab. Legalization would open the door to lucrative taxation and foster a domestic industry in hemp cultivation and manufacturing.
The War on Drugs gives us:
---an entire class of citizens who are ex-cons because of mandatory sentencing laws, citizens who want to work but cannot because no employer is willing to hire them.
---a prison-industrial complex that sucks down more money than foreign military action does.
---it distracts the money and manpower of police agencies away from combating terrorism both foreign and domestic, and away from pursuing employers of illegal aliens. LEAP (Law Enforcers Against Prohibition) has said many times that the War on Drugs makes it harder for them to enforce actual crimes.
---sets a double standard for banning harmless marijuana while allowing deadly known toxins such as alcohol and tobacco. (End all tobacco subsidies. These farmers should grow edible crops.)
---punishes those who are responsible drug users just as harshly as irresponsible users. It works for alcohol... why not for pot?
---Through the DEA, the US is sponsoring and subsidizing regimes in Latin America, such as Colombia, that are guilty of human rights violations just as bad as Cuba or China. Yet, this does nothing to stem drug cultivation there or its flow into our borders. Add Afghanistan to this list; after the ousting of the Taliban in 2001, the Afghans quickly resumed world record production of opium.
---a 70-year money sink that has produced zero results and has all of history's smart bets against it. It took us 13 years to learn that the 18th Amendment was a mistake. Why are we so blind to this one? We should either demand results from our 'investment' in the War on Drugs, or give up.
Enforce existing laws against economic fraud and irresponsible business practices. Some of this tomfoolery was already illegal, but the watchmen let it happen anyway, or allowed the rules to be bent. If the rules hadn't been bent in the first place, rules that existed for a very good reason, then the economy wouldn't have broken so badly. (That genie's bottle was sealed for a reason.)
Make an example out of corrupt lenders and borrowers alike. Let some banks and firms fail, so that the others know there's no safety net if they screw up.
Ease government control over who can be a securities ratings agency. We started with five, and we're down to three. Red tape is so tight that it's impossible to enter the market. The condition is similar to why we haven't built any oil refineries in 25 years. Either nationalize securities ratings, or allow more competition. Either course is better than the quasi-monopoly that exists now.
Savings may not be the key to economic growth, but it is a strong buffer of safety when times turn tough. I agree with Pencilvanian's suggestions on how to encourage savings, if only that we can better weather future storms.
We do not need to return to a metal standard. Fiat currency is tolerable, but only if the *real* inflation rate is ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS under the interest rate of a basic savings account.
Eliminate tax breaks for homes beyond the first. Your second house isn't a need, it's a luxury. Tax it in kind.
Reduce urban sprawl as much as possible. Ease zoning laws so that people can actually live within walking distance of work. Establish passenger trains for the parts of the country where there is no alternative to driving. End government subsidies for airlines, so that passenger ground transportation can be profitable again. |
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Edited by - Cerulean on 03/17/2008 10:49:10 |
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n/a
deleted
15 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2008 : 13:14:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Ardent Listener
To encourage U.S. manufacturing the suggestion has been made to give a tax break on all durable U.S. made goods.
A better way of putting would be to say "discourage manufacturing less than we already are." It would be like me doing you a favor by kicking you in the nuts only once per day instead of twice. |
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n/a
deleted
15 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2008 : 14:02:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Tourney64
Need to secure the borders. Illegals are having a significant negative impact on our econmomy.
Agreed. I'm trying to get the city to build a wall around my neighborhood. The smaller our labor pool the better off we'll be. Sure, prices will sky rocket due to rising labor costs, but my pay check will look bigger since I can be assured that the police will jail anyone from 5 blocks away who tries to get a job in my neighborhood.
/sarcasm.
quote:
Taxes are increasing at an alarming rate due to providing health care, retirement, bi-lingual education, overcrowded prisons, to illegals.
Why not get to the heart of the matter and get rid of taxes, then? I pay more in taxes than I receive in goods and services from the government, and its not just illegal immigrants who are to blame.
What you are advocating is a protectionist economic policy. You are advocating putting a limit on the supply of labor in the US. An example of a similar policy is that advocated by US domestic steel industry. The steel industry is very successful at lobbying for tariffs and quotas on imported steel. This is very beneficial to US steel, to say the least, but it has negative economic consequences that are not immediately apparent.
As a result of steel tariffs and quotas, the price for steel in the US is artificially high. As a result, US manufacturing suffers because our goods cannot compete on the international market with those from countries with free trade in steel. As a result, manufacturers flee our country for cheaper regions: Latin America, Southeast Asia, etc. Its a no brainer to see that unemployment follows. But it doesn't end there. Not only are there now fewer manufacturing jobs in the US, the price consumers pay for manufactured goods rise.
The response is often further tariffs and quotas on imported manufactured goods. But this makes the problem even worse. It is another restriction on supply and the American public suffers higher prices and a lower standard of living as a result. This leads to further unemployment, since Americans start closing their pocket books and spending less.
So now apply this scenario to the labor market. Restrict free trade in labor and you artificially prop up the salaries of those lucky enough to have a job. As a result, labor costs sky rocket and domestic industries have a hard time competing on the international market. As a result, factories close in the US and move to other countries. In order to protect these domestic industries and our domestic economy, we erect more barriers to trade. Every step of this process translates into higher prices for the American public, inefficiency, unemployment, and an inability of domestic industries to compete without the government holding their hands.
If this still sounds like a good idea to you, I suggest you closely examine an economy that has brought this idea to its full potential: North Korea. |
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n/a
deleted
15 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2008 : 14:05:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Cerulean
Scrap Social Security....
You had me at "hello" :) |
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eharrison
Penny Pincher Member
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2008 : 03:52:21
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| as a 20 year old who HATES looking at his paycheck being robbed from him at the hand of Government, I say HEAR HEAR to that! |
Freedom is popular
That's why I voted
Ron Paul! |
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Delawhere Jack
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1680 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2008 : 18:20:47
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1 End all Federal entitlement programs. If the states would like to offer these "benefits" they may do so at their own expense.
2 All able bodied persons WILL work, or they will live off of private charity. If they have no skills, they can pick crops.
3 50% tarriff on all Chinese products. Competing with a nation where the typical labor rate is 20-30 cents and hour IS NOT FREE TRADE, IT'S SLAVE LABOR!
4 Every politician who ever told us about the "Social Security Trust Fund" should be rounded up, along with their families, stripped of all their assets and put in jail for 25 years.
5 Drill for oil in Alaska, Oklahoma, the Gulf of Mexico...where ever it exists in the US.
6 Abolish the fed income tax, and substitute a national sales tax.
7 End all foriegn aid programs. The money ends up in the hands of dictators or greedy NGO contractors, and never reaches the purported target anyway. |
"Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty." Thomas Jefferson
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n/a
deleted
15 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2008 : 02:14:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Delawhere Jack
3 50% tarriff on all Chinese products. Competing with a nation where the typical labor rate is 20-30 cents and hour IS NOT FREE TRADE, IT'S SLAVE LABOR!
That would be economic suicide. Expect the cost of living to in the US to go up when this happens. I agree with everything else, though. |
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2008 : 13:51:36
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| End the tax deduction for charitable contributions. Giving to charity is a good thing.. but why should the government give matching funds out of our tax dollars by giving you a tax break? Wasn't there something in the original documents about a seperation of church and state? I thought they were supposed to pass no law benefitting religion. The specific language probably says something like no law benifiting the "establishment" of a religion.. but does not funding help with "establishment?" Folks should be free to give their own money to whoever they want.. whether it is a qualified 501c3 organization or not. In no way should they at all be allowed to give away the government's money.. the government already gives away more than enough of that money on its own. |
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Delawhere Jack
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1680 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2008 : 17:50:42
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quote:
Originally posted by vinnie
quote:
Originally posted by Delawhere Jack
3 50% tarriff on all Chinese products. Competing with a nation where the typical labor rate is 20-30 cents and hour IS NOT FREE TRADE, IT'S SLAVE LABOR!
That would be economic suicide. Expect the cost of living to in the US to go up when this happens. I agree with everything else, though.
6 of 7's not bad |
"Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty." Thomas Jefferson
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cheeple
Penny Sorter Member
USA
67 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2008 : 18:03:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Ardent Listener
I'm looking for positive ideas or opinion as to what can be done now to help save the economy or at least give us some damage control? In other words, what would you like to see done to help get us out of this mess we are in? Anyone
If one day I could build a website and maybe sell it to google for a cool $500 million, I would pay off people debts, I'd spend about $300 million with major collection agencies and get people out of debt.
Then I'd ask other billionaires and mega millionaires to follow in my footsteps, then I'd dare the president to be bold enough to follow my lead. |
Retire in 2 years with a monthly income of $1,396 per month, what makes this recession proof? it's over 60 Countries Strong. berrytreemadeeasy.com |
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Nickelless
Administrator
USA
5580 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2008 : 19:14:16
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quote:
Originally posted by HoardCopperByTheTon
End the tax deduction for charitable contributions. Giving to charity is a good thing.. but why should the government give matching funds out of our tax dollars by giving you a tax break? Wasn't there something in the original documents about a seperation of church and state? I thought they were supposed to pass no law benefitting religion. The specific language probably says something like no law benifiting the "establishment" of a religion.. but does not funding help with "establishment?" Folks should be free to give their own money to whoever they want.. whether it is a qualified 501c3 organization or not. In no way should they at all be allowed to give away the government's money.. the government already gives away more than enough of that money on its own.
Not all 501(c)(3) organizations are religiously affiliated, but the issue with the separation of church and state isn't the prohibition of any religion (or in this case, tax deductions) but that the government may not favor one religion over another. As long as all religious groups are treated equally under the law, that's the spirit (no pun intended) and letter of the First Amendment and 501(c)(3) regulations.
For that matter, when it comes to proper and efficient use of dollars allocated for housing, food and other such necessities for people in need, I'd trust charitable and religious organizations any day before I'd give my hard-earned money to a government that has no idea what it even owns or spends. |
Visit my new preparedness site: Preparedness.cc/SurvivalPrep.net
--Latest article: Stocking up on spices to keep food preps lively
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Be prepared...and prepared to help: http://www.survivalblog.com/charity.html
Are you ready spiritually for hard times? http://www.jesusfreak.com/rapture.asp |
Edited by - Nickelless on 03/19/2008 19:20:47 |
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Cody8404
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
602 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2008 : 15:50:35
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I see that we need to do one thing. Strip the law of this land down to just the constitution.
The constitution of the United States is sound. It is all the fluff around it.
We need to strip all that fluff away. The way to do that is to expire every law in the land except the constitution. Then after that laws would only live for 10 years before they expire and must be invalid for al least one year before it can be renewed. This would leave us with a working government, and ground and water forces.
It would end the FBI, IRS, FED and many other government programs that we neither need nor most we don’t even know about.
This would also protect people from the government, and allow people to run their own lives.
Let me fall on our own; just don’t make me fall because of everyone else.
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Awake, O kings of the earth! Come ye, O, come ye, with your gold and your silver, to the help of my people, to the house of the daughters of Zion, to the help of the people of the God of this Land even Jesus Christ. |
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Cody8404
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
602 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2008 : 15:51:39
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| This will never happen, but a good step would be to a presidential ticket with Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich on the ballot. |
Awake, O kings of the earth! Come ye, O, come ye, with your gold and your silver, to the help of my people, to the house of the daughters of Zion, to the help of the people of the God of this Land even Jesus Christ. |
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
 Posted - 03/20/2008 : 20:38:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Nickelless
Not all 501(c)(3) organizations are religiously affiliated, but the issue with the separation of church and state isn't the prohibition of any religion (or in this case, tax deductions) but that the government may not favor one religion over another. As long as all religious groups are treated equally under the law, that's the spirit (no pun intended) and letter of the First Amendment and 501(c)(3) regulations.
For that matter, when it comes to proper and efficient use of dollars allocated for housing, food and other such necessities for people in need, I'd trust charitable and religious organizations any day before I'd give my hard-earned money to a government that has no idea what it even owns or spends.
I knew that.. and I admit to going for a stretch.. LOL. If one religion is a 501(c)(3) and another is not are they being treated eqully under the law or is one being favored because of its status? I contend that there are religions that do not have that favorable tax status so therefor they are not being treated equally.
I agree that the charitable organizions do a much better job of allocating resources than the government does, but should the government be in the business of funding them, be they religious or not? |
If your percentages are low.. just sort more. If your percentages are high.. just sort more.
Now selling Copper pennies. 1.6x plus shipping. Limited amounts available. |
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Nickelless
Administrator
USA
5580 Posts |
Posted - 03/21/2008 : 00:46:14
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quote:
Originally posted by HoardCopperByTheTon
I agree that the charitable organizions do a much better job of allocating resources than the government does, but should the government be in the business of funding them, be they religious or not?
The government isn't funding them. Individual taxpayers are funding them and having their adjusted gross income reduced when they make 501(c)(3)-eligible contributions, thus lowering their tax liability. The problem is that the money the government DOES take in is spent in stupid ways by BOTH parties. Which emphasizes my first point about private citizens and charitable organizations doing a much better job taking care of individuals than the feds could ever do.  |
Visit my new preparedness site: Preparedness.cc/SurvivalPrep.net
--Latest article: Stocking up on spices to keep food preps lively
---------------
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Are you ready spiritually for hard times? http://www.jesusfreak.com/rapture.asp |
Edited by - Nickelless on 03/21/2008 00:47:05 |
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What can be done to save the economy?
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