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harper
Penny Sorter Member
USA
25 Posts |
 Posted - 08/28/2010 : 00:33:06
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oddest thing, but I bought a 1983 GML from a friend that measures perfectly compared to a 1984 GML but it has no ring at all when flipped. when the 1984 is flipped, it rings true. I know you can't depend on that alone, so I did compare weight and dimensions which match exactly down to the tenth of a gram.
anyone else run across mute 1ozt gold maple leafs?
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Lemon Thrower
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1588 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2010 : 05:34:40
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| i can't say that i am fortunate enough to have enough gold to throw it around to listen to it. however, i do have an 83 GML .9999 which has some very small rust dots on it. I know bullion occassionally develops these spots but i was under the impression that it didnt happen on .9999. This coin has 4 small spots on the reverse and one on the obverse. |
Buying:
Peace/Morgan G+ at $15.00
copper cents at 1.3X
wheat pennies at 3X
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didou
Penny Sorter Member
Canada
47 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2010 : 08:30:42
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as far as i know it's not possible for gold to have rust, it's probably dust, if not you are likely in possession of a fake, i would like to see picture of that
the mute gold bullion really puzzled me, and i have a idea of what may cause that.
Tungsten have always been used to make fake gold bar because it has a weight very close to gold (W, 19.25g/cm3 - Au 19.30g/cm3) a gold covered tungsten will not have the same sound as gold and will weight almost exactly the same down to the tenth of a gram.
And i have a idea how to test it. Tungsten is very hard and gold is soft. Bending the bullion should be able to see if it's tungsten or not. Tungsten will fracture upon bending, gold will bend.
I'm not saying you should bend your bullion or not, it's just a idea of what may cause that sound.
As far as i know making a small hole on the edge and using a acid test is the only sure way to know if it's gold covered tungsten or pure gold.
If you happen to choose to bend it or make a acid test, i would love to see the results of that test. |
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beauanderos
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2408 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2010 : 11:40:07
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quote:
Originally posted by harper
oddest thing, but I bought a 1983 GML from a friend that measures perfectly compared to a 1984 GML but it has no ring at all when flipped. when the 1984 is flipped, it rings true. I know you can't depend on that alone, so I did compare weight and dimensions which match exactly down to the tenth of a gram.
anyone else run across mute 1ozt gold maple leafs?
That's odd, I would have at least thought it would make a "cheenk" sound  |
Hoard now and hold on!
http://coppermillions.blogspot.com/
http://wherewillyoubein2012.blogspot.com/ |
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harper
Penny Sorter Member
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2010 : 14:30:10
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I am sure it is a real GML. under the loupe it is exact. the reeds match, etc. again, I don't doubt it is authentic, just puzzled because of the lack of "ring". it has a couple of light surface scratches and no edge dings that could contribute to its silence.
has anyone ever run across a tungsten coin? I'm no metallurgist but would that be cost effective to produce? I thought the stuff was difficult to form precisely and due to its brittle charachteristics, it cannot be die-struck.
quote:
Originally posted by didou
...
the mute gold bullion really puzzled me, and i have a idea of what may cause that.
Tungsten have always been used to make fake gold bar because it has a weight very close to gold (W, 19.25g/cm3 - Au 19.30g/cm3) a gold covered tungsten will not have the same sound as gold and will weight almost exactly the same down to the tenth of a gram.
And i have a idea how to test it. Tungsten is very hard and gold is soft. Bending the bullion should be able to see if it's tungsten or not. Tungsten will fracture upon bending, gold will bend.
I'm not saying you should bend your bullion or not, it's just a idea of what may cause that sound.
As far as i know making a small hole on the edge and using a acid test is the only sure way to know if it's gold covered tungsten or pure gold.
If you happen to choose to bend it or make a acid test, i would love to see the results of that test.
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harper
Penny Sorter Member
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2010 : 14:32:22
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hey lemon, does your 1983 ring at all if you flip it with your thumb?
quote:
Originally posted by Lemon Thrower
i can't say that i am fortunate enough to have enough gold to throw it around to listen to it. however, i do have an 83 GML .9999 which has some very small rust dots on it. I know bullion occassionally develops these spots but i was under the impression that it didnt happen on .9999. This coin has 4 small spots on the reverse and one on the obverse.
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Lemon Thrower
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1588 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2010 : 15:06:19
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| i have an 83 and an 85, and like i said i don't have enough gold to be throwing it around. i did let them drop on my desk and they dont really ring- at best a clang. not at all like a silver half or quarter. |
Buying:
Peace/Morgan G+ at $15.00
copper cents at 1.3X
wheat pennies at 3X
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Beau
Penny Pincher Member
216 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2010 : 15:06:45
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| Does tungsten rust? |
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harper
Penny Sorter Member
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2010 : 15:47:10
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lemon, sorry, I meant flipping it with your thumb like someone would do when playing "heads or tails." I don't want to suggest dinging it by dropping it on a hard surface. most coins make some sort of ringing sound when the thumb nail strikes the metal, while at the same time it flies in the air. this allows the metal to reverbrate without the dampening effect of another object.
a good video from a GREAT movie
You must be logged in to see this link.
(you can hear the ring in the scene ...)
I just want to make sure I'm not contributing to scratches on some beautiful 9999
thank you for your time. I'm still baffled about my silent coin.
harper
quote:
Originally posted by Lemon Thrower
i have an 83 and an 85, and like i said i don't have enough gold to be throwing it around. i did let them drop on my desk and they dont really ring- at best a clang. not at all like a silver half or quarter.
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Edited by - harper on 08/28/2010 15:48:22 |
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didou
Penny Sorter Member
Canada
47 Posts |
Posted - 08/28/2010 : 16:48:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Beau
Does tungsten rust?
Yes it does, it turn from it's natural silver-like color to bright yellow similar to brass.
quote:
Originally posted by harper
...
has anyone ever run across a tungsten coin? I'm no metallurgist but would that be cost effective to produce? I thought the stuff was difficult to form precisely and due to its brittle charachteristics, it cannot be die-struck.
...
Never see or read about a tungsten coin, but i've read about a lot of heavy bar filled with tungsten. I have no idea if it's cost effective to produce on a small 1oz/5oz coin, i was just trying to find a explanation that work with the sound, dimension and weight, it's the only one i can come with.
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harper
Penny Sorter Member
USA
25 Posts |
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Sheikh_yer_BuTay
Penny Pincher Member
USA
232 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2010 : 10:04:26
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quote:
Originally posted by harper
hmmmm... here is a tungsten coin but I don't know if it was "struck" with a die.
You must be logged in to see this link.
Hey Harper! Welcome to the Forum.
Cool coin.
I have wondered about gold & silver counterfeits myself. I think it would be easy to counterfeit bars. Coins have been counterfeited for centuries, hence the old European saying: "Old gold never rusts". The ancients best method to determine purity was time. If it was a poor blend of metals... it would eventually rust, tarnish, etc... (The same saying can be applied to marriages, too )
What about a mass spectrometer? Every university campus should have one in their chemistry department. I think that would be the ultimate method to determine purity.
Has anyone tried it before? |
"The most fiscally irresponsible government in American history."
Mort Zuckerman, liberal columnist and former Obama speech writer |
Edited by - Sheikh_yer_BuTay on 08/29/2010 10:07:29 |
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didou
Penny Sorter Member
Canada
47 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2010 : 11:28:19
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The way a mass spectrometer work it's a high powered laser beam who turn metal into liquid then vapor, then the vapor is analyzed. Only a very thin layer on the outside is used. You will need to take a metal saw and cut your bullion to see the inside for it to work in a case of a tungsten fake. Way more destructive than a acid test. About as destructive as bending it with pincer (or your teeth) but at least bending it will be easy without electricity/modern equipments in a survival situation you have to test it to trade it.
A gold plated silver bullion on a mass spectrometer will report pure gold unless you actually cut or drill it and test the inside. At that point the mass spectrometer will probably be useless you will know if it's a fake or not after cutting/drilling it. |
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Sheikh_yer_BuTay
Penny Pincher Member
USA
232 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2010 : 15:35:47
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quote:
Originally posted by didou
The way a mass spectrometer work it's a high powered laser beam who turn metal into liquid then vapor, then the vapor is analyzed. Only a very thin layer on the outside is used. You will need to take a metal saw and cut your bullion to see the inside for it to work in a case of a tungsten fake. Way more destructive than a acid test. About as destructive as bending it with pincer (or your teeth) but at least bending it will be easy without electricity/modern equipments in a survival situation you have to test it to trade it.
A gold plated silver bullion on a mass spectrometer will report pure gold unless you actually cut or drill it and test the inside. At that point the mass spectrometer will probably be useless you will know if it's a fake or not after cutting/drilling it.
LOL! Okay, obviously THAT will not due! It must be another electronic gizmo used in chemistry lab we used waaaay back in the day. I don't remember now. What I remember most is the ga-ga gorgeous PhD candidate teacher's assistant who kept me totally distracted! |
"The most fiscally irresponsible government in American history."
Mort Zuckerman, liberal columnist and former Obama speech writer |
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PreservingThePast
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1572 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2010 : 16:46:28
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Found this through an internet search.
You must be logged in to see this link.
About half way down the page I discovered this:
Tungsten and its use in making fake gold
A Chinese company called Chinatungsten is advertising imitation gold merchandise on its website. The following quote is taken directly from their Tungsten Alloy for Gold Substitution page:
“a coin with a tungsten center and gold all around it could not be detected as counterfeit by density measurement alone … We are well accustomed to exploit more innovative applications of tungsten products. Gold-plated tungsten is one of our main products.”
This raises a few (somewhat rhetorical) questions. What kind of customer is this company looking to sell its imitation gold products to and for what purposes are they intended? Furthermore, what exactly are the “more innovative applications of tungsten products” that this company is hinting at
I am sure there are probably a lot more web pages to be found on the subject but this slow dial-up is taxing my patience again today.
Hope the above helps.
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Sheikh_yer_BuTay
Penny Pincher Member
USA
232 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2010 : 17:40:46
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quote:
Originally posted by PreservingThePast
Found this through an internet search.
You must be logged in to see this link.
About half way down the page I discovered this:
Tungsten and its use in making fake gold
A Chinese company called Chinatungsten is advertising imitation gold merchandise on its website. The following quote is taken directly from their Tungsten Alloy for Gold Substitution page:
“a coin with a tungsten center and gold all around it could not be detected as counterfeit by density measurement alone … We are well accustomed to exploit more innovative applications of tungsten products. Gold-plated tungsten is one of our main products.”
This raises a few (somewhat rhetorical) questions. What kind of customer is this company looking to sell its imitation gold products to and for what purposes are they intended? Furthermore, what exactly are the “more innovative applications of tungsten products” that this company is hinting at
I am sure there are probably a lot more web pages to be found on the subject but this slow dial-up is taxing my patience again today.
Hope the above helps.
Thanks, PTP! Cool article!
Scary, and kinda exciting at the same time. It makes the real stuff even more precious!
"What kind of customer is this company looking to sell..." How about traveling coin salesmen at state fairs and gun shows? They could sell fast and then get out of town quick.
If you are looking for fraudsters in gold... Look no further than the US Government! According to Prof. Antal Fekete, the US is passing off 22 carat gold as 24 carat gold from the great Gold Coin Confiscation of 1933. If you don't want to read the whole speech, just go to "The Revenge of the Looted Coins" on page three of five. Check it out:
You must be logged in to see this link.
Edit: chingtungsten states on their website to contact them and they will tell you how to tell gold plated tungsten form the real deal. I just sent them an email. Will post their reply (if they send one!). |
"The most fiscally irresponsible government in American history."
Mort Zuckerman, liberal columnist and former Obama speech writer |
Edited by - Sheikh_yer_BuTay on 08/29/2010 18:22:56 |
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didou
Penny Sorter Member
Canada
47 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2010 : 19:36:12
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You must be logged in to see this link.
quote:
We are well accustomed to exploit more innovative applications of tungsten products. Gold-plated tungsten is one of our main products.
In details, pure tungsten, in the forms of round disc, plate, sheet, ring, and etc., can be perfectly coated with gold layer with clinquant shine, to replace gold or platinum merchandise except its currency function.
If you are interest in this information, please feel free to contact us. Any questions or enquiries about tungsten alloy products will be welcomed by email to sales@chinatungsten.com or telephone 86 592 5129696.
If it's true then the free ride is over. Even the fear that it may be true alone could change some behavior.
That's could shrink the size of the gold coin that are actively traded.
quote:
...
If you are looking for fraudsters in gold... Look no further than the US Government! According to Prof. Antal Fekete, the US is passing off 22 carat gold as 24 carat gold from the great Gold Coin Confiscation of 1933.
...
22 karat gold (with silver) weight 18.56g/cm3 and 24 karat 19.3g/cm3. About 4% difference in weight or size. I think it's fairly easy to spot unless you have a very small amount.
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Sheikh_yer_BuTay
Penny Pincher Member
USA
232 Posts |
Posted - 08/29/2010 : 20:34:59
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quote:
Originally posted by didou
You must be logged in to see this link.
quote:
We are well accustomed to exploit more innovative applications of tungsten products. Gold-plated tungsten is one of our main products.
In details, pure tungsten, in the forms of round disc, plate, sheet, ring, and etc., can be perfectly coated with gold layer with clinquant shine, to replace gold or platinum merchandise except its currency function.
If you are interest in this information, please feel free to contact us. Any questions or enquiries about tungsten alloy products will be welcomed by email to sales@chinatungsten.com or telephone 86 592 5129696.
If it's true then the free ride is over. Even the fear that it may be true alone could change some behavior.
That's could shrink the size of the gold coin that are actively traded.
quote:
...
If you are looking for fraudsters in gold... Look no further than the US Government! According to Prof. Antal Fekete, the US is passing off 22 carat gold as 24 carat gold from the great Gold Coin Confiscation of 1933.
...
22 karat gold (with silver) weight 18.56g/cm3 and 24 karat 19.3g/cm3. About 4% difference in weight or size. I think it's fairly easy to spot unless you have a very small amount.
didou,
Prof. Fekete is talking about the gold bars stored at Ft. Knox, and West Point. He accuses the US Gov. of melting down gold coins pulled from circulation in 1933 and melting them into gold bullion bars. It sounds small until you grasp the enormity of the fraud. Read page 3 of the speech. |
"The most fiscally irresponsible government in American history."
Mort Zuckerman, liberal columnist and former Obama speech writer |
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harper
Penny Sorter Member
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 08/30/2010 : 00:34:32
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I read somewhere that the best, non-destructive test would be thermal conductivity. that is a disparate characteristic between gold and tungsten.... but seriously, the thought that one ounce coins getting knocked off by the chinese using tungsten is a bit far flung. the brittle characterstics and the cost effectiveness is prohibitive. knocking off bars would be the way to go.
at this point, I am just wondering if anyone out there also has some "silent" GML's. I know I have one. |
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Sheikh_yer_BuTay
Penny Pincher Member
USA
232 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2010 : 20:58:04
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quote:
Originally posted by harper
I read somewhere that the best, non-destructive test would be thermal conductivity. that is a disparate characteristic between gold and tungsten.... but seriously, the thought that one ounce coins getting knocked off by the chinese using tungsten is a bit far flung. the brittle characterstics and the cost effectiveness is prohibitive. knocking off bars would be the way to go.
at this point, I am just wondering if anyone out there also has some "silent" GML's. I know I have one.
Sorry harper,
You may need to do the thermal conductivity test on your coin. I will talk to a coin shop owner buddy of mine who has dealt with tungsten forgeries before. Will see what he says. |
"The most fiscally irresponsible government in American history."
Mort Zuckerman, liberal columnist and former Obama speech writer |
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Sheikh_yer_BuTay
Penny Pincher Member
USA
232 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2010 : 21:12:36
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Here is the China Tungsten website about how to tell the real deal from fake. Hope it helps.
You must be logged in to see this link. |
"The most fiscally irresponsible government in American history."
Mort Zuckerman, liberal columnist and former Obama speech writer |
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harper
Penny Sorter Member
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2010 : 22:45:11
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thanks sheikh, but I can't believe mine is fake at this time... it is not a matter of delusion, just practicality of such an endeavor. it is fairly old and has been in my friends collection for some time. another issue is that it is exact in its features. in order for it to have a tungsten or other material inside it, it would have had to be done at the time the blanks were sent to the royal canadian mint. I'm no expert, but I just doubt the event would be worthwhile (profitable) and undetected during its entire lifespan.
at this point, I just want to know if anyone else has mute coins. to recap, I do not believe it is fake/impure, I just think it is mute. |
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harper
Penny Sorter Member
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 08/31/2010 : 22:47:17
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| ... but I'm curious what your friend says ... |
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Computer Jones
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1112 Posts |
Posted - 09/02/2010 : 01:04:03
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There's a lot of validity to the phrase "ring true"!!!
If you flip a Gold (or Ag or Cu) slug of a certain size and known purity it WILL ring true.
Always has and always will.
I have Pennies, Nickles, Quarters and Halves that I put on railroad tracks back in the early '60's are severely mangled and still ring true when flipped.
If it's Au and doesn't ring true, it had best show a tooth mark or two when bitten.
Unless you're dealing in high value numismatic specimens, they're just fancy slugs you hope will hold some value.
If it don't ring true, bite it, cut it but test it some way!
It's better to know now rather than if/when you really need it.
Buyer beware has never been more true than now when dabbling in shiny metal slugs.
At the very least get a person with good hearing to listen while flipping the disk. If it doesn't ring true, something's wrong.
It might be a Spy Coin.
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There's profit if you melt things!!
8{> |
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harper
Penny Sorter Member
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 09/04/2010 : 02:08:42
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| yeah jones, I hear-ya. I'm actually researching/figuring out how to do an effective thermal conductivity test. I'll repost when I have some sort of reasonable method ironed out. |
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Topic |
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a mute 1983 gold maple leaf?
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