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1945V
Penny Pincher Member
Canada
153 Posts |
 Posted - 07/26/2010 : 21:42:09
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I always wondered, why did the US mint select such a complex structure (i.e. cupro-nickel sandwich with a copper core) for the planchets of post-1964 dimes and quarters & post-1970 halves ?
Would it not have been simpler to use pure cupro-nickel for the planchets like they do for nickels?
My two theories are:
1) A copper core results in a cheaper planchet
2) A copper core is easier on the stamping dies and results in more coins for a set of sets
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Edited by - 1945V on 07/26/2010 21:46:22 |
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theo
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
588 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2010 : 22:27:34
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| I tend to lean toward the first scenario. The current copper sandwich appears to cost about 30% less than the nickel's cupro-nickel mix. The cupro-nickel plating insured that these coins would not look too much different than their 90% silver predecessors. However, if using a copper core made minting easier it could have added to the cost savings. |
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Kiwiman
Penny Pincher Member
225 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2010 : 23:25:38
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| whatever it is i'm glad they chose it because it makes checking for silver by edges way easier. |
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uthminsta
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1872 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 00:44:00
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| Imagine if they had replaced silver dimes/quarters/halves with something like a solid brass type coin. There would BE NO SORTING for silver at this stage of the game. |
Come to the new and improved realcent: http://realcent.org
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wolvesdad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2164 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 01:47:17
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true dat!
Yeah, the nickel alloy on the outside makes the coins last a lot longer,
And for whatever it's worth, no other country has that 'clad' design! kinda cool. |
"May your percentages ever increase!" |
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Lemon Thrower
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1588 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 04:57:22
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quote:
Originally posted by uthminsta
Imagine if they had replaced silver dimes/quarters/halves with something like a solid brass type coin. There would BE NO SORTING for silver at this stage of the game.
why? |
Buying:
Peace/Morgan G+ at $15.00
copper cents at 1.3X
wheat pennies at 3X
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NiBullionCu
Penny Pincher Member
USA
168 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 10:23:00
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| It was to get as close as they could to the weight and alloy signature of the silver coin it was replacing so they would be compatible with the vending machines of the day. |
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Jefferson
Penny Pincher Member
165 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 11:40:09
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quote:
Originally posted by NiBullionCu
It was to get as close as they could to the weight and alloy signature of the silver coin it was replacing so they would be compatible with the vending machines of the day.
Precisely.
You must be logged in to see this link.
I recall reading long ago about one Merrill Jenkins, who, by the late 1950s was a renowned mechanical engineer at a St. Louis-based firm called National Rejectors Inc., a firm that designed and made mechanical coin acceptance devices for vending machines, pay phones and the like.
In 1959, Jenkins received a visit from some Treasury agents who were apparently concerned about the possibility of counterfeiters making large quantities of inexpensive phony slugs that could be easily used in machines that NR manufactured. Jenkins, believing he was helping protect the public from counterfeiters, told the T-men that a nickel-plated copper disk (costing only a few cents each to make) of the same size, shape and mass of each of the present silver coins in circulation could "fool" coin acceptance devices.
Six years later, under the auspices of the 1965 Coinage Act signed into law by LBJ, our silver coinage was replaced by the exact cupronickel disks described by Jenkins. Three years later, all remaining silver certificates in circulation were recalled and exchanged for Federal Reserve Notes (not silver as required by law). In reaction to what he believed was the further "fiatization" of US currency, Jenkins quit NR and self-published numerous books on money, two of the most notable being Treatise on Monetary Reform and Free Money.
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"Specie is the most perfect medium because it will preserve its own level; because, having intrinsic and universal value, it can never die in our hands, and it is the surest resource of reliance in time of war." -Thomas Jefferson
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Shattered
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
523 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 16:33:32
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quote:
Originally posted by NiBullionCu
It was to get as close as they could to the weight and alloy signature of the silver coin it was replacing so they would be compatible with the vending machines of the day.
I see this come up all the time but I have read that vending machines were just based off of weight back then. Anyone know for sure? |
"I need metal in my life, just like an eagle needs to fly."
-Joseph DeMaio : Die For Metal |
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Jefferson
Penny Pincher Member
165 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 17:01:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Shattered
quote:
Originally posted by NiBullionCu
It was to get as close as they could to the weight and alloy signature of the silver coin it was replacing so they would be compatible with the vending machines of the day.
I see this come up all the time but I have read that vending machines were just based off of weight back then. Anyone know for sure?
I don't know for sure, but I always thought they relied on electrical conductivity (more robust, can be entirely solid-state). The copper core imitates the silver's conductivity, while the cupronickel imitates the silver's appearance.
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"Specie is the most perfect medium because it will preserve its own level; because, having intrinsic and universal value, it can never die in our hands, and it is the surest resource of reliance in time of war." -Thomas Jefferson
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Lemon Thrower
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1588 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 17:07:21
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| i never knew the vending machines used a current. apparently most other people don't either. i was watching a tv show called beating las vegas and there was a guy who was a master craftsman who spent years painstakingly carving dies to counterfeit casino tokens. after all of his effort, he puts it in the machine and it falls out of the bottom like an ordinary slug. ultimately, he had to purchase blanks made out of the right alloy. the alloy had a very unique composition so it was easy for the cops to catch him. |
Buying:
Peace/Morgan G+ at $15.00
copper cents at 1.3X
wheat pennies at 3X
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1945V
Penny Pincher Member
Canada
153 Posts |
Posted - 07/27/2010 : 17:22:30
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I think Shattered theory's about weight sensors makes sense.
I don't think they had the technology, in the vacuum tube era of 1965, to make coin sensors that could detect the difference in the coin's electrical conductivity or paramagnetic parameters.
An uncirculated 1964 Roosevelt dime weighs 2.5 grams and an uncirculated 1965 Roosevelt dime weighs 2.27 grams.
Silver dimes would appear to be the same weight as a copper clad dime after a few years in circulation.
And I am sure the detectors could tolerate a 10% difference in weight.
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NiBullionCu
Penny Pincher Member
USA
168 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 15:55:16
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Direct from page 7 of the Coinage Act of 1965:
You must be logged in to see this link.
"Six million of our coin-operated devices, including nearly all vending machines,
have selectors set to reject coins or imitations of coins that do not have the
electrical properties of our existing silver money. Highly selective rejectors are
a necessity in these machines if they are to be a low-cost source of food and other
goods and services. Otherwise, fraudulent use would soon make them costly.
The sensors in these machines are set to accept or reject coins on the basis of
the electrical properties of our traditional coins, which have a high proportion
of silver. To be compatible in operation with our existing coinage, therefore, our
new coins must duplicate the electric properties of a coin that is 90-percent silver.
No single acceptable metal or alloy does so. The composite coins, made of layers
of differing metals and alloys, that I am asking the Congress to approve, are
coins made to order to duplicate the electrical properties of coins with a high
silver content. They are the only practical alternatives we have discovered to
our present coinage. " |
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uthminsta
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1872 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 19:54:20
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quote:
Originally posted by uthminsta Imagine if they had replaced silver dimes/quarters/halves with something like a solid brass type coin. There would BE NO SORTING for silver at this stage of the game.
quote:
Originally posted by Lemon Thrower why?
Because if they looked SUBSTANTIALLY different, they would have been sorted out completely within the first couple years. Don't you think so? |
Come to the new and improved realcent: http://realcent.org
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Shattered
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
523 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2010 : 20:23:38
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| Thanks NiBullionCu for posting. It clears up that issue. |
"I need metal in my life, just like an eagle needs to fly."
-Joseph DeMaio : Die For Metal |
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1945V
Penny Pincher Member
Canada
153 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2010 : 06:27:35
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Thanks everyone for the excellent information and input on this subject.
US dimes, quarters and halves have those distinct three-layers to accommodate vending machines from the 1950's and early 1960's which no longer exist.
It reminds of the story of why the standard distance between railroad rails in the U.S. is four-feet, eight-and-a-half inches. The answer dates back to Roman chariots 2000 yrs ago whose wheel spacing was 4' 8.5". |
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Why are dimes, quarters & halves copper clad ?
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