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PennyPauper
Penny Collector Member
USA
395 Posts |
 Posted - 07/03/2010 : 20:39:51
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I'll stick to my real cents investing.Good luck with your stock investments,but I refuse to play games that are rigged by the big investment houses.They control the computers that run everything,its on auto pilot to take your money.Unless you are buying IPO's the companys you are investing in will never see or use that money,and even that is not always the case.
Most of the laws put in place after the great depression to prevent another crash have been removed.We are one more flash crash away from
zero confidence.It is another case of the preversion of our trusted institutions.The pennies in my account won't turn to zero's over night or suddenly be worth a fraction of their value.Your arguements for stocks may have been valid for a few moments in time,but the times they are a changin,and the current change taking place is not something I want to particapate in. |
Available again! $100 of Copper Lincoln Memorials for $145 shipped. |
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wolvesdad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2164 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2010 : 20:49:22
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stateofmind,
like others said,
choosing 'high quality' stocks is not easy for even VERY experienced people. And past performance of stocks can't be a RULE for future performance.
The age of the stock market could be growing to a close, you just don't know (I don't actually think it is though, just saying!) |
"May your percentages ever increase!" |
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2010 : 21:41:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Sheikh_yer_BuTay
Hi everyone! I am new here. This is my first comment.
Any investment should fit the needs of the investor. When you are young, you usually take more risks than when you are old. As you age, you should think more about capital preservation than high risk capital growth.
The biggest risk to everyone's financial security I see on my radar are government entitlements. Almost $14 TRILLION US debt and a jaw-dropping $109++ TRILLION in unfunded liabilities! Gaaagghh!!! If you are counting on Social Security, Medicare, Medicaide, Old peoples' prescription programs... you are so freaking screwed! Money paid into those programs is flushed into the greatest Ponzi scheme the world has ever known!
To me, copper pennies are no brainers. When I look at face value vs. melt value, what is not to like? Show me any stock were you can immediately gain somewhere around 200%? Please!
Still, like everyone else, I have no crystal ball. I don't know what is going to happen. I struggle with how much to hoard. PM's are better investments... but what about when they are so hard to buy that you can't find them, or afford them if you do? In that way, I think copper pennies are a good investment as part of a diversified portfolio.
My goal is $17,000. That is how much my heavy equipment truck will haul to the smelter some day. Who knows? By then copper may be $4.00 a pound again!
Welcome. I hope to hear more from you.  |
Realcent.forumco.com disclosure. Please read.
All posts either by the members, moderators, and the administration of http://realcent.forumco.com are for your edification and amusement only. It is not the intent of realcent.forumco.com or its host to provide investment, medical, matrimonial, legal, security or tax advice and nothing posted here should be considered to be so. All rights reserved.
Think positive. |
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Sheikh_yer_BuTay
Penny Pincher Member
USA
232 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2010 : 08:29:18
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Hi thogey
That's K.C. and the Sunshine Band.
LOL! Yeah, man, those guys are musical geniuses! Love their sound. |
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stateofmind
Penny Pincher Member
143 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2010 : 02:13:37
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quote:
Originally posted by PennyPauper
I'll stick to my real cents investing.Good luck with your stock investments,but I refuse to play games that are rigged by the big investment houses.They control the computers that run everything,its on auto pilot to take your money.Unless you are buying IPO's the companys you are investing in will never see or use that money,and even that is not always the case.
Most of the laws put in place after the great depression to prevent another crash have been removed.We are one more flash crash away from
zero confidence.It is another case of the preversion of our trusted institutions.The pennies in my account won't turn to zero's over night or suddenly be worth a fraction of their value.Your arguements for stocks may have been valid for a few moments in time,but the times they are a changin,and the current change taking place is not something I want to particapate in.
If you want to use that logic, what makes you think that the price of copper isn't controlled? If you think that all stocks will fall to zero, as I have said before, your hoard will not save you. There will be mass riots and looting. It would be much better for you to have a hoard of brass, gunpowder, and lead.
Keep your pennies as a hobby, not a safety net for when the economy and society goes to hell. |
Check out our new site, RealCent.org!
"There are people who are very resourceful, at being remorseful, and who apparently feel that the best way to make friends is to do something terrible and then make amends."
-Ogden Nash |
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stateofmind
Penny Pincher Member
143 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2010 : 02:27:34
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quote:
Originally posted by wolvesdad
stateofmind,
like others said,
choosing 'high quality' stocks is not easy for even VERY experienced people. And past performance of stocks can't be a RULE for future performance.
The age of the stock market could be growing to a close, you just don't know (I don't actually think it is though, just saying!)
Spending half the time that many hoarders do sorting coins is all you need. Do your "homework" about your stocks, and its not that hard. In 2008, I lost 3% of my portfolio, in contrast to the market tanking roughly 40%. Last year, I gained over 30%. I'm not a rich stock broker, in fact, I'm only 15. I just did my homework.
I'm going to make this my last post in this topic. If you have had the patience to read this topic all through, I think there were some important ideas brought up. In summary:
Hoarding copper can be a nice hobby. If you are working in large enough volume, can keep your illiquid investment until the melt ban is lifted, and have a buyer lined up, then it can also be a fairly good investment.
For most however, the time and capital tied up in sorting and hoarding copper does not present itself as a good investment. Some of you believe that your hoard will save you in a potential future economic collapse. For most cases, you would find the opposite to be the case. Guns, ammunition, and food are much better alternatives.
Thanks everyone for the friendly debate.
-stateofmind 
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Check out our new site, RealCent.org!
"There are people who are very resourceful, at being remorseful, and who apparently feel that the best way to make friends is to do something terrible and then make amends."
-Ogden Nash |
Edited by - stateofmind on 07/09/2010 02:28:04 |
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redneck
1000+ Penny Miser Member
1273 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2010 : 08:28:37
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quote:
Spending half the time that many hoarders do sorting coins is all you need. Do your "homework" about your stocks, and its not that hard. In 2008, I lost 3% of my portfolio, in contrast to the market tanking roughly 40%. Last year, I gained over 30%. I'm not a rich stock broker, in fact, I'm only 15. I just did my homework.
This kid has a good head on his shoulders. 
There are many things more lucrative than sorting coins.
A 2nd job is the first thing that comes to mind.
If one adds up how much time is spent gathering, processing and returning coins compared to return of investment, a second job spending the same amount of time at will normally outperform this by a considerable amount.
The No.1 thing that anyone can do to accumulate wealth or better yet financial independence is to control their amount of debt.
A penny saved is a penny earned.
In my opinion.
Hoarding copper should be looked at as a tool in a toolbox to hedge against inflation.
As with anything, moderation is key.
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Maine_Jim
New Member
8 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2010 : 09:51:29
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I have a couple hundred pounds of copper saved. Moving to a new house has a way of changing strategies! Off to the sorter it goes this week. I think the ban will be lifted the day they discontinue minting the cents. Given the lack of value a cent has today I can't see why they haven't yet. Why we haven't seen a $5 coin in it's place is beyond me...
Maine_Jim |
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goodcoin
Penny Sorter Member
42 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2010 : 10:12:58
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| A paper dollar in one hand and 100 copper coins in the other? I like the feel of copper. |
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Sheikh_yer_BuTay
Penny Pincher Member
USA
232 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2010 : 11:41:24
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Dear State of Mind,
YES, copper pennies are a poor investment... for now.
While I admire your intellect and youthful spunk... you lack wisdom. Wisdom comes from painful experiences. The best education I have ever had was the "School of Hard Knocks".
Starting in 1962, ( I was 8 ) my father brought home coins by the bank bag. He gathered his three sons around the dinning room table and we sorted, and sorted, and sorted. Do I ever remember how my back hurt from sitting there for what seemed to be hours. We sorted coins for three years, until the big boys got involved and used machines at the banks to remove all 90% silver from circulation. Was it a bad investment? At the time, yes. 18 yrs later, Dad cashed in! Made a killing at $50.00 per oz.! Thank God he had the foresight to hoard. Interest rates were so high, small businesses like his could not borrow money. The prime interest rate was over 20%. That silver money was what made payroll for months to keep our business afloat.
Some of us have been thru some tuff economic times that you cannot imagine. Have you watched your father go hungry so his kids could eat? Have you, yourself, had a sick wife with cancer in the hospital, two small kids of your own, and the bank trying to foreclose? No. The business cycle is just that, it is cyclic. Economies expand and contract. There are times when it is really tuff to bring in an income to support one's lifestyle. When that happens, it is always best to have a couple of "Aces in the hole" to pull out and use. Copper pennies fit that bill, not as good as silver and gold, but a good hedge none the less.
You said: "Guns, ammunition, and food are better alternatives." You have left a couple out. That is whiskey and tobacco! Look it up, young scholar! At the end of WW1 and WW2... whiskey and cigs were more valuable than gold! During the Spanish Flu epidemic, a fifth of whiskey (used for medicinal purposes only, of course!) fetched a $20 dollar gold double eagle in some parts of the world!
May you never know the quiet desparation of having to make ends meet in a totally flat economy. But I think your turn will come sooner than you think. |
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biglouddrunk
Penny Pincher Member
138 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2010 : 18:56:06
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Inflation, deflation, WTSHTF those are all side reasons. Sorting copper pennies is a lot like buying long term copper futures for 50 cents on the dollar. Let say we knew for a fact that the melt ban would be lifted in 5 years. If we planned on selling every penny to a scrap dealer than the decision would be should I pay $1.47 of 2010 dollars to buy a pound of 2015 copper. This is the type of analysis we should make when deciding if it worth it. Lets look at buying a 6% CD vs. saving copper pennies. In 5 year $1.47 would be worth $1.97. Now what would copper be worth in 2015. Lets assume copper increases in price at the same rate as inflation. If inflation were 1% per year copper would cost 3.19. It is still an advantage for copper. A CD is likely to increase at a faster rate than inflation so at some point in the future it would pass copper. In my analysis after year 15 the CD passes the copper price. Of course the math is all dependent upon the inflation rate. For example if you were to assume a -1% it would mean a CD is better in year 11. If inflation is 2% a CD is better after 19 years.
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2010 : 19:48:41
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Let's consider a global economic boom scenario. Copper then will be in a huge world wide demand and new mining will struggle just to try to keep up with it. Do you really think a bank will be willing to pay more on a CD then a commodity like copper will grow in price then? If so, then the mining companies ought to close down and buy CDs instead.
Now let's consider a global economic bust scenario. The banks may then be closed and the FDIC bankrupt or inflation will be so high the value of your money in your CD will be all but worthless. Copper demand will collapse, but mining will all but stop. If the U.S. dollar is still around your copper cents will still at least have their face value. If not, then they will at least be something you can use as a means of exchange. |
Realcent.forumco.com disclosure. Please read.
All posts either by the members, moderators, and the administration of http://realcent.forumco.com are for your edification and amusement only. It is not the intent of realcent.forumco.com or its host to provide investment, medical, matrimonial, legal, security or tax advice and nothing posted here should be considered to be so. All rights reserved.
Think positive. |
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beauanderos
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2408 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2010 : 20:54:55
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| I'm moving into copper on a small basis to diversify away from silver and gold. It's also fun as a hobby, and keeps my attention diverted from the daily volatility suffered by the PM's. I have to support BigLoudDrunk's analysis of why copper might be a good investment. Allocating a small percentage of your portfolio to an asset that has relatively little downside and the potential for a rather good upward move (granted, reliant on high inflation) is not a bad bet. I am personally not investing in copper for today's return, but for what my patiently amassed pennies might well fetch in five years or so. If indeed they prove to climb substantially in value by then, it will be too late to accumulate them at the time. If they don't, I had a fun hobby that was relatively inexpensive. My emphasis for now, is just collecting as full of a wild Lincoln set as I can... the pre-82's are just being set aside and will gather dust until the day when they get what wheaties are bringing now. |
Hoard now and hold on!
http://coppermillions.blogspot.com/
http://wherewillyoubein2012.blogspot.com/ |
Edited by - beauanderos on 07/11/2010 20:59:13 |
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biglouddrunk
Penny Pincher Member
138 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2010 : 21:20:32
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I looked into the price of CD it turns out CD's don't pay 6%. There are however investments that will earn 6% even during recession or depressions. I did look at a 20 year chart of copper and it grew by 4.4%. I would call copper a good investment, but there probably are better ones. Still since were getting copper at 50% metal value right now it still makes sense to sort. Mining companies spend there capital mining instead of investing for the same reason we sort they are extracting copper at less than the metal value.
When it come to WTSHTF type scenarios in my opinion one has to define how bad the S really is. In a case of hyper inflation it would be better to have money in copper than in paper bills. Copper demand would fall, but the price would increase since dollars would buy less goods and services. If US dollars became worthless then my guess would be that copper would become almost worthless to because society would start to break down and without factories people would have little use for copper. In the scenario where the US dollar becomes worthless I would think the best investment would can food bullets and guns.
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Klark Cent
Penny Sorter Member
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2010 : 19:27:09
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I am kind of troubled by the prospect of scrapyards or refiners only offering around 50% of spot for copper lincolns in a "no melt ban" environment of the future. I seen this predicted a few times including in this thread.
Is there evidence to suggest this is wrong?
How will the situation likely compare to junk silver coins of today? 90% silver coins trade pretty close to spot, but 40% halves and war nickels trade at more of a discount.
Would 95% copper lincolns be even worse?
Have any scrapyard owners or refiners ever chimed in on this? |
Edited by - Klark Cent on 08/16/2010 20:41:21 |
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2010 : 21:41:34
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Pre-Ban I had a scrap yard offering me #2 copper prices for 2 tons as long as I could provide them with proof that melting was not illegal.  |
If your percentages are low.. just sort more. If your percentages are high.. just sort more.
Now selling Copper pennies. 1.6x plus shipping. Limited amounts available. |
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2010 : 21:45:15
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| There most certainly was a good market for them prior to the ban. They didn't put the ban on because they wanted to stop people from crushing pennies in the novelty coin machine at the zoo. |
Realcent.forumco.com disclosure. Please read.
All posts either by the members, moderators, and the administration of http://realcent.forumco.com are for your edification and amusement only. It is not the intent of realcent.forumco.com or its host to provide investment, medical, matrimonial, legal, security or tax advice and nothing posted here should be considered to be so. All rights reserved.
Think positive. |
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TXBullion
Penny Collector Member
374 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2010 : 22:54:01
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| and HCBTT, did you accept |
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E-ville
New Member
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2010 : 23:12:39
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the biggest advantage to copper penny sorting is this simple fact.. there is no chance of loss except for your time.. your buying copper bullion at less than half price.. and as long as the penny is legal tender it will always be what you invest in it.. now if deflation dooes happen there is no rish the penny will remain legal tender , if inflation go crazy the penny will likely be discontinued.. good for hoarders.. if the economy stabilizes and geets back to "normal" inflation will be a regular 3-6% a year and eventually the penny will be discontinued.. there has been talk for years of discontinuing it.. due to minting costs being in the $.02 range if the metal was 0 cost..
Now even if the penny is never dropped, eventually made from plastic.. my bet it coppers will eventually be worth more than $.01 just like wheats are now.. sit on any coin made from semi valuable metals for 30-40 years and it will be worth more than its face.. once they discontinue.. and the penny has the best odds of being discontinued.. it will be worth its weight in scrap and by slowing stashing them away now will be far better than sitting in paper or digital dollars.. I use copper as my way of hedging my savings yet still instantly sale-able for my investment.. minus the time to sort.. and with a automated sorter the time is minimal and can be done in the background.
Remember the best part of cent hording is if everything goes fine you'll still get your.01 out of it.. and if it doesnt go so well all yoou loose is a small amount of time.. I can sort $100 face in a few hours in a semi automated fashion while watching tv.. no loss to me... and my only investment was $10 for a comparator to do the sorting.. Ive already got that back in wheats.. |
Metal=RealMoney |
Edited by - E-ville on 08/16/2010 23:14:44 |
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2010 : 23:18:45
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quote:
Originally posted by TXBullion
and HCBTT, did you accept
I did.. but I couldn't prove that they were legal to melt. Even though I knew that was the law.. they only uploaded about the last 10 years of the Federal Register to the internet.. so it didn't go back far enough. The search for proof that it was legal to melt was how I originally found RealCent. I lurked for quite a while.. then decided to join and make a few posts.
When they passed the melting ban I got a call from my metals dealer.. he said "I guess you were right all along.. but we sure can't do it now." |
If your percentages are low.. just sort more. If your percentages are high.. just sort more.
Now selling Copper pennies. 1.6x plus shipping. Limited amounts available. |
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Copper Nugget
New Member
Canada
9 Posts |
Posted - 08/17/2010 : 09:39:00
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| Yes it is worth it. They are a commodity "theoreticly" and a currency. In the 08 crash, currency was one of the best assets to have, one could have dumped a portion of their copper cent hoard at the bank and snapped up some cheap gold or silver and been ahead of the game. Just my 1 cent. |
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Klark Cent
Penny Sorter Member
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2010 : 00:19:52
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"Pre-Ban I had a scrap yard offering me #2 copper prices ..."
So about 72% of spot? That would be about 1.59 times face value at current copper prices, right? |
Edited by - Klark Cent on 08/18/2010 00:49:13 |
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2010 : 02:34:14
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| Sounds about right. I think back then copper was higher so it worked out to about 1.7 times face. |
If your percentages are low.. just sort more. If your percentages are high.. just sort more.
Now selling Copper pennies. 1.6x plus shipping. Limited amounts available. |
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Fatboy
Penny Sorter Member
USA
81 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2010 : 09:55:48
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Originally posted by HoardCopperByTheTon
The search for proof that it was legal to melt was how I originally found RealCent. I lurked for quite a while.. then decided to join and make a few posts.
"then decided to join and make a few posts".
Now that is THE understatement of this entire thread. :)
By the way, this was a nice exchange of ideas and concepts. |
Edited by - Fatboy on 08/18/2010 09:58:05 |
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PennyPauper
Penny Collector Member
USA
395 Posts |
Posted - 08/18/2010 : 10:52:40
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quote:
Originally posted by stateofmind
quote:
Originally posted by PennyPauper
I'll stick to my real cents investing.Good luck with your stock investments,but I refuse to play games that are rigged by the big investment houses.They control the computers that run everything,its on auto pilot to take your money.Unless you are buying IPO's the companys you are investing in will never see or use that money,and even that is not always the case.
Most of the laws put in place after the great depression to prevent another crash have been removed.We are one more flash crash away from
zero confidence.It is another case of the preversion of our trusted institutions.The pennies in my account won't turn to zero's over night or suddenly be worth a fraction of their value.Your arguements for stocks may have been valid for a few moments in time,but the times they are a changin,and the current change taking place is not something I want to particapate in.
If you want to use that logic, what makes you think that the price of copper isn't controlled? If you think that all stocks will fall to zero, as I have said before, your hoard will not save you. There will be mass riots and looting. It would be much better for you to have a hoard of brass, gunpowder, and lead.
Keep your pennies as a hobby, not a safety net for when the economy and society goes to hell.
I enjoy the debate and am impressed with your savvyness as a 15 year old.Maybe the copper market is controlled on some level,as all markets are.But maybe you can conceede that todays stock market is heavily manipulated by computers and large houses and is highly volitile.I never said or planned on my hoard saving me.Its a hobby and a solid way to save money with very little downside.If I sell pennies I make a 30% or greater return.When I find a wheat penny that is a 200 to 400% return.When I find a error coin the return is even greater,yes I have found a few,or a indian head,dime,silver dimes.I choose to use my time to research coins instead of stocks,which I did at one time on small scale,because IMHO the market is rigged by the folks at the top and if I want to gamble I'll go to the casino,at least they deal the cards right in front of you,not in a back room.
If you invest wisely you could come out way ahead but it takes lots of knowledge,patience,perserverance,and luck.
On paper and in theory the market is great,but like all human run instutions they are subject to criminals,greed,vindictiveness ect.ect.
Good luck in whatever you do.
The best returns on your time and money is spending it with your family,which I'm off to do now.
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Available again! $100 of Copper Lincoln Memorials for $145 shipped. |
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I'm Going to Open a Can of Worms Here...
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