| Author |
 Topic  |
|
JustSayNoToFiat
Penny Pincher Member
110 Posts |
 Posted - 02/27/2010 : 10:12:36
|
I think a lot of people brought up useful points, and I figured that "replace with face" would be the most common answer, though I can also agree with the "replace with market".
Here is my reasoning:
A) The single Ag coin found was not given with the expectation that it was worth more than face or would be recognized as such.
B) The Cu coins (no wheats, just pre 1983 CU's) are commonly available enough as to be interchangeable with Zn's. There is no formal market for these coins over face like there is for Ag (yes, I know we are trying to get a market going, but the secret isn't out to the masses yet). Their "worth" is face value.
B) The expectation of my company was that I spend the money on goods, but there was no expectation that I would sort, roll, and use the actual coins to purchase items. The proof of acquisition would be a receipt and the physical goods themselves. The exact specie used appears to be relatively irrelevant.
Therefore, I don't see any harm or moral hazard from removing and replacing the coins.
The question therefore moves to whether I have a duty to respect the intrinsic value rather than the face value of this single Ag coin.
Replacing the face value, and tossing in the difference of what I would pay for the coin relative to spot and it's face value would probably be best for me, considering the extra amount if is so small that it is well worth it to me to be beyond reproach. |
It's Half Time...all the time. |
 |
|
|
cptindy
Penny Hoarding Member
572 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2010 : 11:28:31
|
As with any post it is an opinion!
My opinion!
As your circumstance may have been random, it is interesting, the ethical question at hand. It represents what I believe is a line that needs to be drawn in order to not ride the slippery slope.
If collecting in the representation of "charity" as an individual one would be aligning themselves to the benefit of the cause. To twist the fate to justify actions is asking for more lubricant to be added to the said slope.
How can one not be in a "charitable" frame of mind in this situation.To say that "oh, they don't know the value and would just spend them as coins" is the crossing of that line. Sure, its easy to say "oh,it was not much and they did not have any excessive value". What happens over time? Continuing with such activity until one day a more valuable coin appears. Then one simple says well to ease my conscious I will replace it with "what I believe to be fair market value"
Once those coins are pulled they are no longer considered "face value coins"
"Market value" is just that "Market"! It is not exactly "market value" when only one party bids now is it?
My suggestion to this conundrum would be to remove said coins and offer an auction in the name of the charity to those that believe in its value, the coins themselves and the charitable cause.
This then becomes a transparent transaction.
The individual responsible for this would them be in high regard within its community as a respectable person truly believing in the cause.
Sorry to ruffle any feathers here! I for one would love me some "pennies from heaven" so to speak. |
"It is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting"
" The average man doesn't want to be free. He wants to be safe."
H.L. Mencken
http://silver-news-today.com/ |
|
|
|
JustSayNoToFiat
Penny Pincher Member
110 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2010 : 17:02:17
|
quote:
Originally posted by cptindy
As with any post it is an opinion!
My opinion!
Right...I asked who you were referring to with the previous comment and you got upset. Listen, I'm not on here to argue with people, but when you post stuff like:
quote:
Originally posted by cptindy
The fact that an educated individual puts themselves into the opportune scenario in the name of charity to extract its spoils! Then can justify it to themselves is amazing!
You can expect at least to be questioned about it since the accusation is so wildly off base as to be viewed as insulting.
There are a small fringe of the population who sees the worst of what might happen as what is happening without applying common sense to the situation. I think you might have fallen into that fringe with the above comment.
If I were to follow your same logic, should I assume that you joined this forum to identify potential targets for home invasion robberies?
Maybe you just like coins and metals.
You are entitled to your own opinion, but realize that spurious comments will probably be at least questioned.
No harm, no foul, case closed. |
It's Half Time...all the time. |
|
|
|
Flbandit
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
851 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2010 : 17:51:40
|
| My wife was cashier at our annual church yard sale a few years back. I sat down on the floor nearby and she set the box of change they were using next to me so no-one would bother it. (I'm a big, ugly sort!) Anyway, I started looking through the coins without really even thinking about it. I ended up stopping for the very reason we're discussing here. "Lead me not into temptation!" |
Are you throwing that out? |
|
|
|
cptindy
Penny Hoarding Member
572 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2010 : 18:11:29
|
My comments relate directly to the debate or topic of "ethics" as the question was asked. The line we each draw is obviously up to the individual. Ethics in its very nature is personal and relative to ones beliefs.
How exactly you have determined "I got Upset" I am not quite sure. When poised a question, I have no problem with stating my case and the specific line I would draw in this matter.
When I saw a majority of individuals having responded with go ahead switch'em out at face value, others stating they could put themselves in similar situations. personally with this being a topic about ethics as you presented I felt obligated to clarify my stance.
If you felt this was a "no brainer" scenario, you would not have asked the question and most definitely not used ethics as your concern.
Question all you wish, I have no issues with it what so ever and will reply when available.
What I do not appreciate is your assumption of my logic and insinuation of criminal intentions. That Sir seems a stretch of imagination and borders on slander. Which for some reason you decided to resort as opposed to reflecting on the words of advice you had so eagerly requested.
It has been my experience that "common sense" as you put it is in short supply,which again is relative.
Yes, I do like coins and metal!
I was merely attempting to state my position, in the future I will try not to touch on topics that may impact your sensibilities. I would not want to be accused of plotting to steal your newspaper.
|
"It is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting"
" The average man doesn't want to be free. He wants to be safe."
H.L. Mencken
http://silver-news-today.com/ |
|
|
|
JustSayNoToFiat
Penny Pincher Member
110 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2010 : 20:43:43
|
Ok,
A:
quote:
Originally posted by cptindy
My comments relate directly to the debate or topic of "ethics" as the question was asked. The line we each draw is obviously up to the individual. Ethics in its very nature is personal and relative to ones beliefs.
Nobody questioned your opinions on what should or should not be done. I first questioned TO WHO you were referring to. You then stated:
quote:
Originally posted by cptindy
As with any post it is an opinion!
My opinion!
At this point, nobody even criticized your statement and you couldn't even directly answer the question.
B:
To answer your statement:
quote:
Originally posted by cptindy
How exactly you have determined "I got Upset" I am not quite sure.
You ended your first two statements (2nd quotation above) with exclamation points, so it did indeed appear that you were upset.
C:
quote:
Originally posted by cptindy
When I saw a majority of individuals having responded with go ahead switch'em out at face value, others stating they could put themselves in similar situations. personally with this being a topic about ethics as you presented I felt obligated to clarify my stance.
.
Clarifying your stance is one thing, but making ad hominem statements against other board members in general who you don't know is something entirely different.
D:
quote:
Originally posted by cptindy
If you felt this was a "no brainer" scenario, you would not have asked the question and most definitely not used ethics as your concern
.
I asked a question, knowing how the majority of folks would probably reply. There were alot of well-reasoned responses. I wanted to hear them as I wanted to see how others would react. Even input that lacked practicality, such as auctioning off a single coin, had certain interesting merits.
E:
quote:
Originally posted by cptindy
Question all you wish, I have no issues with it what so ever and will reply when available.
What I do not appreciate is your assumption of my logic and insinuation of criminal intentions. That Sir seems a stretch of imagination and borders on slander. Which for some reason you decided to resort as opposed to reflecting on the words of advice you had so eagerly requested.
What I did is reflect the logic of your statement:
quote:
Originally posted by cptindy
The fact that an educated individual puts themselves into the opportune scenario in the name of charity to extract its spoils! Then can justify it to themselves is amazing!
Which clearly insinuates that I must have gotten involved with this charity to pick through a coin jar to enrich myself, back to your joining this forum.
My question was in fact a rheotical question, not any form of slander. The fact that you take it that way proves your own statement to be slanderous against myself and other forum members.
F:
quote:
Originally posted by cptindy
Yes, I do like coins and metal!
Good, which I believe is the reason you joined this site.
I hope it is not to further belabor this any more. You had some good points about the topic, but you made a statement that was off key and insulting to members of this forum.
quote:
Originally posted by cptindy
would not want to be accused of plotting to steal your newspaper.
That's made of paper...I think it is probably safe 
..and now for the second time:
"no harm, no foul, case closed." |
It's Half Time...all the time. |
|
|
|
DSK
New Member
Australia
7 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2010 : 20:59:56
|
I live in sydney and i count all monies we raised selling chocolates, ect.....Since reading that Australia is looking into getting rid of the 5c (75%Cu) as intrinsic vale more then face value....have taken the bags of 5cents and replaced with notes...No shame there....
last month i bought a 1kg .925 silver jug from a second charity store for $45...it was badly tarnished and no one noticed gthe mark on the bottom....I paid the $45 on the sticker knowing the silver content was $600AUD..they got it as a donation and made $45..I did think deep down that I should use my knowledge and work for them and sort the silver from the junk.. |
DSK |
|
|
|
thogey
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1617 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2010 : 21:12:04
|
quote:
Originally posted by DSK
I live in sydney and i count all monies we raised selling chocolates, ect.....Since reading that Australia is looking into getting rid of the 5c (75%Cu) as intrinsic vale more then face value....have taken the bags of 5cents and replaced with notes...No shame there....
last month i bought a 1kg .925 silver jug from a second charity store for $45...it was badly tarnished and no one noticed gthe mark on the bottom....I paid the $45 on the sticker knowing the silver content was $600AUD..they got it as a donation and made $45..I did think deep down that I should use my knowledge and work for them and sort the silver from the junk..
Good to hear form you DSK.
You're OK to keep the silver. The seller set the price. You paid it.
Would it be nice to kick some back to the charity, yes it would.
If you were working for the sale and you were responsible for setting the price, and you picked it up for yourself. That would be a problem.
The same principle holds if you were responsible for handeling the coins as mentioned above.
Glad to have you. |
Come to the new and improved realcent: http://realcent.org
|
|
|
|
cptindy
Penny Hoarding Member
572 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2010 : 22:26:48
|
I don't come here to argue.
Take from it what you will!
I found nothing insulting about my statement. If an individual is putting themselves in a position to have access to coins for the purpose of extracting those coins at a value they choose to replace them with it is wrong. (whether you feel your doing good or not) A transaction of other peoples money should by all rights include that party as to the determination of those coins. How they are handled,spent,replaced or otherwise used. This is a topic that would and does relate to more than your scenario.
The odd part here is my statements where never intended towards you! (If you go back and read you will notice that I wrote an initial post and then edited in after several comments were left)You have chosen to be the realcent patriarch of sorts speaking for members of this forum.Why I don't know!
At this point I find this whole conversation ridiculous. |
"It is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting"
" The average man doesn't want to be free. He wants to be safe."
H.L. Mencken
http://silver-news-today.com/ |
|
|
|
Nickelless
Administrator
USA
5580 Posts |
|
|
thogey
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1617 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2010 : 22:43:19
|
Ahh,
I'm missing out on an ethics arguement.
Too bad it's bed time. |
Come to the new and improved realcent: http://realcent.org
|
|
|
|
thogey
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1617 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2010 : 22:51:24
|
If you're involved with the charity, you sell the silver at market, give it to the charity.
That's the right thing to do, and that's that.
It's a charity. If your involved with it, isn't it your duty, to be ...charitable?
Man, I cant beleive I missed out on an arguement! Good night. |
Come to the new and improved realcent: http://realcent.org
|
|
|
|
JustSayNoToFiat
Penny Pincher Member
110 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2010 : 03:34:42
|
quote:
Originally posted by cptindy
I found nothing insulting about my statement. If an individual is putting themselves in a position to have access to coins for the purpose of extracting those coins at a value they choose to replace them with it is wrong.
That part is true. However, that is not what you stated:
quote:
Originally posted by cptindy
The factthat an educated individual puts themselves into the opportune scenario in the name of charity to extract its spoils! Then can justify it to themselves is amazing!
This was stated as an accusation, not a question or a possibility.
quote:
Originally posted by cptindy
The odd part here is my statements where never intended towards you!
That part was unclear, and my first statement inferred clarification, which was not (until now) given. I accept your apology (of sorts).
quote:
Originally posted by cptindy
You have chosen to be the realcent patriarch of sorts speaking for members of this forum.Why I don't know!
Actually, I could have fun with that
quote:
Originally posted by cptindy
At this point I find this whole conversation ridiculous.
Well, that much we can finally agree upon. |
It's Half Time...all the time. |
|
|
|
cptindy
Penny Hoarding Member
572 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2010 : 07:41:19
|
My statement as you continue to post is a observation followed by my view of said words in this thread, of which you seem intent to pound without reference to the entirety. I wish you "no harm no foul" as you have suggested.
If you chose to read the entire thread it may become clear as to my context. Then again I doubt it as you seem to be intent on pursuing a no end endeavor.To Quote "Actually, I could have fun with that"
Please let me clarify, I am not apologizing! (excuse the exclamation it is designed only for the specific sentence to ad emphasis)
Your scenario is an ethical situation in which you have stated "I asked a question, knowing how the majority of folks would probably reply" . Obviously you are capable of clairvoyance and need not seek reference.
It is clear by your continued badgering your intention is not to seek clarification, but to prolong and instigate a otherwise trivial conversation.
If you would like to continue this ethical debate as it relates to the original topic, I would be more than happy. Otherwise Sir, I bid you good day.
" All Hail justsaynotofiat realcent Patriarch" the man with the crystal ball |
"It is the nature of the human species to reject what is true but unpleasant and to embrace what is obviously false but comforting"
" The average man doesn't want to be free. He wants to be safe."
H.L. Mencken
http://silver-news-today.com/ |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Poll:Ethics Question
Forum Locked
Topic Locked
