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IdahoCopper
Penny Pincher Member
125 Posts |
 Posted - 01/31/2010 : 11:30:52
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I opened up the hoard this morning to look over my old silver coins and do some research.
It looks like all the Franklins are worth a bit more than Ag melt value. I have 48 Frankies and one 1908 Barber.
My theory is that as the price of silver increases, it will eventually overtake the numismatic value, thus canceling out any numismatic advantage.
So my strategy is to soon sell all my old coins at the best numismatic prices I can get, then use the cash to buy non-numismatic coins, or Ag bullion. This is so I will just have more Ag ounces, which will increase in value more or faster than marginally numismatic coins.
Is my theory wrong?
How do I get the best price for my marginally numismatic Franklins? I also have a 1922 Peace dollar, Orleans mint, probably in VF condition.
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See - http://IdahoCopper.com
and:
http://beefjerky.com |
Edited by - IdahoCopper on 01/31/2010 11:31:41 |
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kirkland
New Member
USA
0 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 11:39:04
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| I don't think bullion is the way to go. With silver or gold coins, the government does not have the ability to confiscate them because they are still legal US tender, disregarding the silver content. Bullion can be confiscated, because it does not represent US money. By purchasing or saving silver coins, you can later rely on their metal value and numismatic value when you sell them, and not just their metal value. |
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thogey
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1617 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 11:50:16
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I think the government try to can confiscate anything they want to.
The government will never confiscate MY bullion I will take a stand at that time.
But kirkland may have a point regarding:old currency vs. bullion
The only thing is there is a increasing supply of bullion products. They don't make Franklins any more. Once the price of silver exceeds the numismatic values. The coins go into the crucible, making them more rare.
My silver hoard is a collection. Maybe you should just buy and keep what you like.
Edit for spelling |
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Edited by - thogey on 01/31/2010 12:03:56 |
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IdahoCopper
Penny Pincher Member
125 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 11:52:33
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So you are saying that if a numismatic coin is worth 20% over melt today, it will always be worth 20% over melt, even if Ag goes to $50 or more per ounce? Somehow I don't think that would be true.
What I'm saying is, I'd rather have 20% more Ag today, and watch it all go up to $50/oz.
Confiscators need to find the hoard, I sincerely doubt that will happen. |
See - http://IdahoCopper.com
and:
http://beefjerky.com |
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IdahoCopper
Penny Pincher Member
125 Posts |
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Market Harmony
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1274 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 11:58:32
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Numismatic value for coins in less than MS condition is very difficult to realize. The exceptions are for key and semi-key dates. In the Franklin series, these are 1949, 1952-S, and 1955. But, even these need to be in better-than-circulated condition to get a higher-than-melt selling price.
Common coins in any series need to be in MS condition to get numismatic stature. The older or rarer that they are, however, the better the chance of a premium over spot for circulated examples. Franklin Half Dollars are relatively young and very common in regards to available older US coin. You will need pristine examples to get numismatic value. Check for the key and semi-key dates, from these pick out the best examples, sell the rest for bullion.
There was no 'O' mint for 1922 Peace Dollars. Probably a 'D'. If it is in VF condition, then it is worth silver value only.
edited to add:
"numismatic" value will most likely continue to increase in proportion to spot value. However, it will most likely not decline in proportion to a decline in intrinsic value. A MS coin's numismatic value is only very slightly influenced by the intrinsic value. But, for common dates, these swings in intrinsic value will influence a buyer's willingness to pay a certain price based on spot. |
goto the new and improved realcent: http://realcent.org |
Edited by - Market Harmony on 01/31/2010 12:06:44 |
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thogey
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1617 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 12:00:44
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But consider this, If you look at the history of "rare" coin values, They generally don't go down. I am saying that when the silver value rises, the coin's value rises. But no, the "20%" premium will evaporate. What if silver drops? Then the numismatic value of your rare coins will provide you with a support that is not related to silver.
Diversify.
My point, in summary is, it might be a good idea to hold a mixture. I always buy what I like.
Edit was for spelling correction |
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Edited by - thogey on 01/31/2010 12:02:58 |
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oober
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1304 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 12:06:06
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Having Numis coins in your stack is a good hedge against lower commodity prices. I myself keep about 10% of my stack in Numis. Mainly Morgans.
Regarding Confiscation. I wouldn't read to much into this, It would be a logistical nightmare. You would probably see "eminent domain" on the mines long before confiscation take place.
Market is also spot on with the valuation of modern Numis. Unless Key date or MS they are only worth melt...
Why not put a set together? |
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thogey
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1617 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 12:07:20
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If Market Harmony disagrees with anything I write concering this issue. I would definitley, defer to his comments.
His opinion obviously holds a lot of weight. |
Come to the new and improved realcent: http://realcent.org
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kirkland
New Member
USA
0 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 12:08:10
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| If people start melting down Franklins and other coins, then there will not be as many of them left out there. Those will gain in value because of the sudden drop after people melt the rest into bullion. The value of those bullion bars would go down and the value of the still existing coins would go up. I think it is a waste to melt silver coins into bullion bars. |
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dakota1955
1000+ Penny Miser Member
2212 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 16:46:33
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| I like a mix of coin and silver. Its like farming you raise a little bit of everything that way you spread the risk around therefore the chance of gain is also spread around. |
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NDFARMER
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1197 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 17:50:59
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| I have wondered this myself. I would much rather own 50 Morgan dollars at $20.00 each than one MS-64 for $1000.00. If and WTSHTF is that $1000.00 coin going to be worth much? |
COPPER - the "poormans" precious metal!!!
SELLING - $100.00 face copper shipped to you for $189.00 machine rolled or bagged - PM me if your interested. |
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 18:01:36
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I want to know where you can get a 20% premium for Franklins.  |
If your percentages are low.. just sort more. If your percentages are high.. just sort more.
Now selling Copper pennies. 1.6x plus shipping. Limited amounts available. |
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thogey
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1617 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 18:05:53
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The wise man who originally turned me on to silver as opposed to gold made the same point.
He said "hey if you only need 50 bucks what are you going to do, sell a $500-1000 coin?"
"You can just sell a few of these" as he flashed a handful of ASE's. The best advise I had in a long time. I think .90 coins and bullion products are kind of interchangable.
The nice thing about .90 silver is you can invest 1 dollar (dime) in silver. Sometimes you only have one dollar to invest. |
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thogey
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1617 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 18:07:59
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quote:
Originally posted by HoardCopperByTheTon
I want to know where you can get a 20% premium for Franklins.
There's a guy in Prescott who sells them for $7.50 all day long.
Not to me of course. It's unbelievable. |
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 18:15:26
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| Sell yours for 7.40 then. If he sells them on eBay the premium would get eaten up by the fees. |
If your percentages are low.. just sort more. If your percentages are high.. just sort more.
Now selling Copper pennies. 1.6x plus shipping. Limited amounts available. |
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thogey
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1617 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 18:20:55
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The guy sells them at the local flea market along with ASEs and a bunch of wierd bullion products. He's there every Saturday.
He has a glass case with piles, I mean piles, of silver
I've stood there and watched him sell slick morgans for $25.00
Sometimes he drops his pants a little (old car dealer lingo) and I buy.
But the old geezer is definitly gettin it done. |
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slickeast
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2533 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2010 : 18:56:13
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quote:
Originally posted by thogey
The guy sells them at the local flea market along with ASEs and a bunch of wierd bullion products. He's there every Saturday.
He has a glass case with piles, I mean piles, of silver
I've stood there and watched him sell slick morgans for $25.00
Sometimes he drops his pants a little (old car dealer lingo) and I buy.
But the old geezer is definitly gettin it done.
If he is able to sell at those prices, and people are willing to buy, then good for him. He wouldn't show up every Saturday if he wasn't making money. |
You don't have to be the BEST you just have to be.......SLICK
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Lemon Thrower
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1588 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2010 : 16:22:12
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numismatic premium most certainly go up and down.
there is a newsletter writer, steve sjugerrud, who several years ago recommended hi-grade slabbed gold. his argument was that numismatic premiums were at their lowest ever. as gold went up, the premium went up to, but on a percentage basis the premium went even lower. you would have made more money in pure bullion. now, i'm not suggesting that will happen every time, just that premiums can go lower and it just happened over the last 5 yrs.
as for the premium on franklins, i don't know, but I can buy all the walkers i want for 79 cents over spot, and jfk's at 39 cents over spot, so i put the premium for walkers at 40 cents. |
Buying:
Peace/Morgan G+ at $15.00
copper cents at 1.3X
wheat pennies at 3X
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PennySaved
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1720 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2010 : 16:33:42
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I would think it would work opposite with regards to PM prices going up and investing in semi-nuismatic coins vs. bullion. As the prices go up, people will be melting more of their junk silver and pre-1964 coins that aren't as in good of shape. Look at Barber dimes, quarters, and halves. Even in lower end condition they have a slightly higher premium than just straight mercury and roosevelt dimes, washington quarters, etc. Weren't a lot of Barbers melted in the 80's when silver skyrocketed?
I think if you can buy semi-nuismatic coins at melt then you are protecting your investment better against the ups and downs of silver but not spending the outrageous premiums that come with nuismatic coins. Also, you would be taking less of a risk of losing your investment with the ups and downs of PMs like you do straight bullion. Then 10 years from now as they have gotten even older and a lot of the lower end ones are melted, you have a better chance that you will have coins worth more than just the silver content alone.
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SELLING COPPER PENNIES 1.4X FACE SHIPPED......“I sincerely believe that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies, and that the principles of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale” Thomas Jefferson |
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numismatic Value of Franklins vs. Ag Value
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