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double dot
Penny Sorter Member
USA
55 Posts |
 Posted - 11/16/2009 : 00:58:59
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Hand sorting CWR out the truck with a scale in the parking lot of a major upstate NY mall while the family is doing some 4H event inside. I find a 1909S cent. So because there is a coin store in the mall, I go to check his blue book. WOW, the best coin I've ever found. So I go up to the store owner to ask him what condition he thinks the coin is in. He does a double take, then drops the coin behind his counter. I can't see back there but it's just a second. He looks at it some more, then he tells me it is a fake as the S is "raised".
I leave disappointed but having thought on this for two days, some probability questions arise. Why would I find a fake in CWR? Could he have swapped a fake for the real when he "accidently" dropped the coin behind his counter. Why would he do this for a coin the blue book says is worth at most between $60 - $80?
Now in the space of 45 minutes I've gone from feeling great to feeling ripped off over a cent that cost a cent. I hate numismatics. Repeat over and over, "In it for the copper".
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Crouching Teller, Hiding Copper |
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uthminsta
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1872 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2009 : 01:27:30
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quote:
Originally posted by double dot Why would I find a fake in CWR? Could he have swapped a fake for the real when he "accidently" dropped the coin behind his counter.
You really could find a fake because this is a coin that is no doubt counterfeited. Especially if it has the initials VDB at the bottom of the back. Then it's MUCH more likely to have been counterfeited.
Could he have swapped it for a fake? Wellllll... I guess you would be the best judge of that. Does it look like your coin? I mean, the same shade of brown, the same wear, etc. Were there any dings on it, irregularities, dirt buildup, etc. My guess is that he couldn't have found the same coin so quickly just sitting behind his counter. Most of their inventory should have been in 2x2s or in professional grading company slabs, right? What is the likelyhood that he has a loose fake 1909-S sitting behind the counter waiting for someone to bring one in? Typically someone who brings one in would also have it in some sort of container or protection. Which would be my advice if you ever return and you suspect this guy wants to rip you off with a little switcheroo. Always have your coin stapled in a 2x2 if it is very valuable at all. But hindsight is 20-20...
Could you put a high-res photo up of the coin? |
Come to the new and improved realcent: http://realcent.org
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barrytrot
Administrator
USA
721 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2009 : 01:33:55
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The odds of that dealer having a fake 1909-S sitting there waiting for the switch are pretty low I would think :)
For one the odds of someone coming in with a 1909-S that they aren't aware of UNLESS it is in a larger collection are low.
So there is very little chance he did a switch.
That said, many coin dealers know less about coins than they should so post some photos if you are unsure about the legitimacy of your coin. |
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fb101
Administrator
USA
2856 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2009 : 07:41:57
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I agree with all the above, but I also want to add to get a second and third opinion before you accept it is fake.
Also, we can't give you an estimated value without grading or pics. |
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Kurr
1000+ Penny Miser Member
2906 Posts |
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daviscfad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1664 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2009 : 09:33:10
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yeah i want to see a picture if you still have it! by the way you can sell me all the 1914-d's 1922's 1931's and 1909's you find for the copper value of 2 cent and i will buy till i can buy no more its possible its not a fake. depends on the coin dealer but a lot of them are punks |
Inquiring minds want to know |
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barrytrot
Administrator
USA
721 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2009 : 09:56:08
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| Plus fakes are worth well over face as well even if you tell people it is a fake. There are legitimate "fake collectors" out there. |
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2009 : 09:59:07
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Never use the blue book for valuations. This is often referred to as the "Dealer steal book."
I don't think he switched the coin unless it was a combination coin/magician shop. Very poor handling on his part though. There are more fakes than real ones of that coin, but he could also be wrong about it being fake. Dealers will often just say something is fake when they aren't sure because they don't want to show their lack of knowledge and are scared to make a costly mistake by buying a coin they aren't absolutely sure of.
I'll pay 3 cents each for all your key date coins that might be fake.  |
If your percentages are low.. just sort more. If your percentages are high.. just sort more.
Now selling Copper pennies. 1.6x plus shipping. Limited amounts available. |
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highroller4321
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2648 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2009 : 10:10:01
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quote:
Originally posted by double dot
Hand sorting CWR out the truck with a scale in the parking lot of a major upstate NY mall while the family is doing some 4H event inside. I find a 1909S cent. So because there is a coin store in the mall, I go to check his blue book. WOW, the best coin I've ever found. So I go up to the store owner to ask him what condition he thinks the coin is in. He does a double take, then drops the coin behind his counter. I can't see back there but it's just a second. He looks at it some more, then he tells me it is a fake as the S is "raised".
I leave disappointed but having thought on this for two days, some probability questions arise. Why would I find a fake in CWR? Could he have swapped a fake for the real when he "accidently" dropped the coin behind his counter. Why would he do this for a coin the blue book says is worth at most between $60 - $80?
Now in the space of 45 minutes I've gone from feeling great to feeling ripped off over a cent that cost a cent. I hate numismatics. Repeat over and over, "In it for the copper".
I don't think that the coin dealer switched out the coin. There is always that chance but its not very likely.
Does the 09-S have the VDB initial on the lower back?
If you wish to send me the coin I can verify if it is fake or not. I than will send you the coin back. This is a serious legitimant offer for you if you wish to do so. I have done this with a few other members with differnt coins. Check out the members feedback section to few my "credintials" PM me if interested. |
Copper Penny Investing
www.portlandmint.com |
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psi
Penny Collector Member
Canada
399 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2009 : 10:20:35
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| Did the coin get dinged when he dropped it? Maybe he told you it was fake to obscure the fact that he may have damaged a moderately valuable coin and now doesn't want to buy it. |
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Bluegill
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1964 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2009 : 16:51:52
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quote:
Originally posted by HoardCopperByTheTon
Very poor handling on his part though.
That is an under statement. This is potentially a valuable coin, and he drops it and possibly scuffs it up. Yikes
double dot, please post a pic, we like pics (at least I do...). 
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double dot
Penny Sorter Member
USA
55 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2009 : 20:23:59
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Thanks for all the helpful advice. Here is a picture of the coin real or fake.
Heads
Tails
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Crouching Teller, Hiding Copper |
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daviscfad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1664 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2009 : 20:31:43
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| The 1909 i believe is authentic. The S is questionable. let me find some info |
Inquiring minds want to know |
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oly1oly1
Penny Sorter Member
USA
81 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2009 : 20:32:41
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If that is a fake it sure has gone through a lot of wear and tear.
Looks like penny has been sanded on the high spots.
Cool coin whether real or fake. Wish I knew more in grading and telling bogus vs real. |
T.O. |
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daviscfad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1664 Posts |
Posted - 11/16/2009 : 20:39:12
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the reason i question the S is because the slant of the S on the bottom tail. here is a picture of the 4 different positions of mint mark
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Inquiring minds want to know |
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daviscfad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1664 Posts |
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highroller4321
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2648 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2009 : 01:46:32
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Really need to look at it through a loope! The last 9 looks funny and so does the S. 9 doesnt have the curve and S is small and slanted?
Do you have any experience with numistmatics? I seriously am willing to try to help you out.
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Copper Penny Investing
www.portlandmint.com |
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double dot
Penny Sorter Member
USA
55 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2009 : 09:11:14
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Thank you highroller4321. I'll take you up on your offer - see your Private Messages.
I don't have any experience coin collecting. I don't know what to do with my wheats, few indian heads, or AU copper memorials. I keep them apart from the bulk copper.
I hand sort copper using scales and magnifying glasses, so I see at least one side of every coin. |
Crouching Teller, Hiding Copper |
Edited by - double dot on 11/17/2009 09:31:59 |
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barrytrot
Administrator
USA
721 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2009 : 17:02:40
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| Highroller and DD, keep us up to date on your findings. I'm eager to hear. It does look fakish (I don't have any of my real ones in front of me right now to compare) but it doesn't look "horridly fakish" so I'm on the fence! |
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highroller4321
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2648 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2009 : 17:11:32
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Your welcome Double Dot. PM responded too.
Barry we will keep everyone up to date. :D |
Copper Penny Investing
www.portlandmint.com |
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vrbsroma
Penny Collector Member
394 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2009 : 11:16:11
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I doubt it was switched. Give him the benefit of the doubt. No real gain to be had.
The "S" looks really "off." I think it's a fake, but I'm no expert. |
As far as I know, it is stated "In God We Trust" on the US dollar. How can I trust this currency if I do not believe in God?
Possession is nine-tenths of the law.
When I give my two cents, they're always copper! |
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highroller4321
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2648 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2009 : 17:26:25
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In my humble opinion I think the coin is real. According to Davis's chart I think its the bottom left hand corner one.
The S looks funny in the pictures because the coin is tilted instead of being lined up right and the S also has some wear on it.
P.S I have the coin in hand |
Copper Penny Investing
www.portlandmint.com |
Edited by - highroller4321 on 12/02/2009 23:09:09 |
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slickeast
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2533 Posts |
Posted - 12/02/2009 : 23:05:36
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It looks like the Obverse #2 in daviscfad's post. In the condition that it is in what is it worth? Would someone make a fake that looks like that?
Is it VG-8? Worth about $110 +/-? according to Red Book |
You don't have to be the BEST you just have to be.......SLICK
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Edited by - slickeast on 12/02/2009 23:08:45 |
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AGCoinHunter
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
685 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2009 : 08:30:55
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| If its legit, congrats on your find. There is just something about that S. Guess its damaged but it just doesnt look right. Please let us know what you find highroller. |
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent."
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Lemon Thrower
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1588 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2009 : 09:56:12
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- coin looks legit to me with the possible exception of the s. i'm no expert though.
- lots of fake 1909's exist, esp now because of china.
- would not use a dealer who drops coins.
-dealers probably have lots of fake coins laying around, so a switch is possible. but i don't think that happened. |
Buying:
Peace/Morgan G+ at $15.00
copper cents at 1.3X
wheat pennies at 3X
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AGgressive Metal
Administrator
USA
1937 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2009 : 11:09:29
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| The "S" has a funny shape and whats more, despite all the wear, there are still decent lines on the wheat. That is a hint that maybe the "wear and tear" is fabricated and not due to decades of handling. A coin that beat up shouldn't have lines like that in the wheat, imo. |
And he that hath lyberte ought to kepe hit wel / For nothyng is better than lyberte / For lyberte shold not be wel sold for alle the gold and syluer of all the world.
-Caxton's edition of Aesop's Fables, 1484 |
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Hating numismatics
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