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Mcprice302
Penny Collector Member
USA
404 Posts |
 Posted - 11/06/2009 : 18:17:54
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I was wondering if anyone here has contacted a refiner/smelter and had any interest in them buying copper pennies when the time is right? I know there are some here who were sorting before the melt ban took place. Did any of yall ever sell to a refinery, and how much of a discount to spot did you receive? Lastly, would our copper pennies be classified as brass product or #2 copper?
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dakota1955
1000+ Penny Miser Member
2212 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2009 : 19:13:35
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| Not at this time, if market goes up would sell pennies in the penny form just like 90% silver is now sold as. |
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Gr33nday43
New Member
Uzbekistan
10 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2009 : 19:57:10
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| I am waiting until I have the capabilities to melt the copper pennies and when the melt ban is lifted. There is a huge premium for these bars and I figure that practicing for a few months with many different types of metals would allow me to pour good quality bars that can be sold for a significant premium. |
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beauanderos
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2408 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2009 : 22:52:42
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I would prefer to hang onto mine for later resale, or in the event of a financial meltdown for spending as cash. If the dollar becomes worthless, in the absence of a replacement, there won't be enough silver to conduct daily transactions and it will likely be too pricey anyway, transactions will necessitate pennies, nickels, and bartered items.  |
Hoard now and hold on!
http://coppermillions.blogspot.com/
http://wherewillyoubein2012.blogspot.com/ |
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Mcprice302
Penny Collector Member
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2009 : 10:16:21
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| No one here has contacted a smelter? |
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AGgressive Metal
Administrator
USA
1937 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2009 : 11:39:14
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| Why would you melt them? Do you melt silver dimes and quarters? Just sell them as bullion. That's my opinion. |
And he that hath lyberte ought to kepe hit wel / For nothyng is better than lyberte / For lyberte shold not be wel sold for alle the gold and syluer of all the world.
-Caxton's edition of Aesop's Fables, 1484 |
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Nickelless
Administrator
USA
5580 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2009 : 11:51:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Gr33nday43
I am waiting until I have the capabilities to melt the copper pennies and when the melt ban is lifted. There is a huge premium for these bars and I figure that practicing for a few months with many different types of metals would allow me to pour good quality bars that can be sold for a significant premium.
People who know about copper pennies know that they're 95 percent copper, so it makes perfect sense to leave them as pennies until you sell them. Otherwise, prospective buyers will have to have the metal tested to determine its components, whereas no testing is necessary with copper pennies--you know exactly what you have. I'd think there'd be even more of a premium, or at least lower expenses on the part of the seller, if the buyer doesn't ask for what he's buying to be tested for purity and content. You'd just be taking money out of your own pocket by melting the pennies. Let the buyer be the one to melt them when the melt ban is lifted, with the same caveat as above--there's no reason to melt them. |
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Mcprice302
Penny Collector Member
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2009 : 12:52:14
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quote:
Originally posted by AGgressive Metal
Why would you melt them? Do you melt silver dimes and quarters? Just sell them as bullion. That's my opinion.
Call me pesimistic, but I can't see people buying up pennies as bullion to the extent that 90% currently enjoys. If it's as hard to sell copper as it is now even with a huge discount to melt, why would it get any better as the price moves up? There already seems to be more sellers than buyers at the moment, and of course there will be even more sellers as the price goes north.
I'm just trying to figure out my best option for an exit plan before I get too far ahead of myself, thats all. To me, it seems alot easier (and certaintly more profitable) to load up truck and trailer and head out to the smelter, than it would be to list $5000+ of copper cents and take a beating on discount and shipping. Of course this all depends on the lack of a melt ban, and if I had $5000+ of copper, none of which are the csae at the moment. But thats why I'm asking now instead of when things get that far. Thoughts anyone? |
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2009 : 13:45:19
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Of course it would also depend on how much the smelter wants to make for his effort. He is going to want to discount it too.
Of course some our members, like Kurr.. will just do their own smelting once it's legal.
There is a finite supply of copper pennies.. the marketplace will make adjustments to balance supply and demand. Right now it is easy to access raw material, and there are plenty of sellers willing to sell at a discount to get market share and move product. A lifting of the melt ban, followed shortly by ramp up of indutrial sorting to strip supplies.. will give that marketplace a boost.. but it will also cut off the supplies of many of the members here.
Shipping is certainly an issue.. especially because the weight to value ratio is so low. Even if you truck it to you smelter, the transportation costs are a factor. You better have a pretty serious truck if you are going to load up 1 and 2/3rds tons of copper into it for a little jaunt down to the smelter.  |
If your percentages are low.. just sort more. If your percentages are high.. just sort more.
Now selling Copper pennies. 1.6x plus shipping. Limited amounts available. |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2009 : 14:30:17
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This took a while to track down-
You must be logged in to see this link.
6th post
By TXTim
"There are many mexican scrap dealers in Houston that will buy pennies all day for #2 copper prices.
I asked a few what they do with them - all say "Export to Mexico smelters" "
There are a few other posts concerning melting cents, selling to refiners, etc, though I don't know if it is worth the effort to look at this point in time.
Casting your own copper-
You must be logged in to see this link.
****************************************
The details to remember are these-
-There was a melt ban preventing people form melting US Pennies back in 1974, the ban was eventually lifted.
-There was a ban on melting silver coins back in the 1960's, the ban was eventually lifted when cupronickel coins appeared on the scene. The price of silver coins before the ban could be had for face value and could be sold for a premium after the ban was lifted (or in fact, during the ban. There were no laws passed preventing people from selling numismatic coins, though numismatic, much like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.)
You have raised a good point, Mcprice302, no one wants to end up holding the bag (penny bag) if the price of copper falls before the melt ban is lifted. Selling to collectors or copper fans on eBay may not provide the best solution if the price declines.
The problem with trying to sell copper coins to the smelter or scrap dealer is they may not want to take coins fearing it is illegal to melt pennies, even if the melt ban is lifted.
The thing to do now, even with the melt ban in place, is see which refiners are willing to take foreign copper coins, since the ban applies to US coins, not foreign. If they will take foreign now they will take US when the ban is lifted.
(I wish MaDeuce would come back to the forum, he was the one who imported Canadian Nickels legally and sold to a smelter for profit.)
Find out from refiners how many pounds are needed in order for it to be profitable for them to bother with. Some may only buy a half ton of #2 copper as a minimum order, some may deal with a few hundred pounds. A few may agree to a one time purchase from you, some may insist on several deliveries of copper or they will refuse your business.
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Think outside the box, think outside melting, numismatic/60's style silver, think material to sell as a finished product.
I saw in a catalog someone was selling a base metal bracelet made with dateless buffalo nickels and the asking price was $29.95
How mch would a copper penny bracelet sell for?
I had seen a small coin bank made from coins, the coins in question were Swiss copper coins (1 rappen coins) it had an asking price of $15.
Think of copper coins not just something to melt, but as raw material to be turned into something artistic (the Lincoln Portriats comes to mind.) Be creative, think of different uses for copper cents, or if you decide to throw in the copper cent towel, sell to other Realcenters who are willing to take the risk of holding copper cents for the long haul.
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Edited by - pencilvanian on 11/07/2009 14:38:57 |
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2009 : 14:36:22
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| I have some of those copper penny bracelets. I should send one to Kurr so he can tell us all how to do it. |
If your percentages are low.. just sort more. If your percentages are high.. just sort more.
Now selling Copper pennies. 1.6x plus shipping. Limited amounts available. |
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Mcprice302
Penny Collector Member
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2009 : 15:36:41
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Thanks for the link pencilvanian. Very interesting. I tried searching for similiar topics, but we all know how good that works. I'm not throwing in the towel on copper though. I still think there is profit to be made in it. But, I've seen alot of posts saying how one day this will pay off, and not much else to go with it. I was looking to gain more info with this post regarding exactly how.
Hoard, that makes alot of sense too about the progression of the market after the melt ban is lifted. I knew that even a smelter's offer would be at a discount to spot though. He wouldn't be doing it if there wasn't any profit right? Thats what the original post was about, in part, to determine how severe that percentage loss would be compared to selling to an individual. 1.67 tons? My truck laughs at that and asks for more! It better though considering the fuel it burns. |
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Cupronickel
Penny Pincher Member
USA
110 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2009 : 18:43:11
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| IMO, the best bet would be to hold them until the melt ban was lifted and sell direct to brass foundries. Purchasing agents will only want to deal with people holding multi-ton amounts. |
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JerrySpringer
Penny Hoarding Member
669 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2009 : 19:37:56
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| You think if they ever lift the melt ban that places like Jackson Metals will know way in advance before the public? |
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2009 : 20:37:45
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McPrice.. I need a truck like that!
There are profits to be made.. just not the levels of profit you might want. If the profits were substantial, someone way better capitalized than you would swoop in and take them all. The thinner margins help keep this a fun hobby. There are members here who have made reasonable profits.. especially when copper was higher. Some of us converted a few tons of copper into silver and gold. Diversification is not a bad thing.
If you think about it.. with most investments you are in the hole immediately after the purchase. The price you could immediately resell the item at would be less due to sales cost, commissions, the wholesale spread, etc.
To get back to the original question.. I was sorting prior to the melt ban. I was negotiating a deal with our metals broker for 2 tons at #2 copper price. All he wanted to complete the deal was for me to prove that it was legal for him to melt/export the pennies. Even though I knew it was legal at the time, proving it became much more of a challenge. Seems not all the old Federal Register stuff has been loaded up on the internet. This search was how I originally found this site. A few months later when they passed the melt ban (I'm sure they did it just to mess me up), I got a call from our metals broker. He said "I guess you were right about the legality of melting all along, but we can't do it now." I ended up developing the market on eBay. When I started getting reasonably high prices, other folks saw it, and suddenly the market was flooded.. causing prices to drop. Then eBay jacked up their fees, and selling on eBay became more of an advertisement rather than a place you wanted to do a lot sales from. Between the low prices, the cost of shipping, and the high selling costs, the margins got pretty thin. Many folks who used to be active in the market pulled out and went into an accumulation phase. |
If your percentages are low.. just sort more. If your percentages are high.. just sort more.
Now selling Copper pennies. 1.6x plus shipping. Limited amounts available. |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2009 : 19:43:08
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..."someone way better capitalized than you would swoop in and take them all."
This happened in Canada with the Canadian Government's effort to reclaim the metal from their coins (Whether this was done by the Canadian Government itself or by a company on the government's behalf is unknown to me.)
With the copper and nickel Canadian Coins removed from circulation, I would guess (and this is just a guess) that the Canadian Coins that escaped the refiners would gain a premium over face value in the future for future coin collectors.
Suppose the US Government decided it wanted to pull coppper cents out of circulation and replace them with zinc cents. The copper cents that escape the recovery program would gain a premium over face, much like wheat cents did after 1959.
The coppers you set aside could gain a collectable premium if copper cents were removed from circulation or were sold off to refiners/melted by backyard refiners after the melt ban is lifted.
While the idea that the pre 82 copper cents will be treated the same way 90% silver is treated seems unlikely, there were undoubtedly many who thought wheat cents would ever be worth more than one cent back in 1960, or that Indian Head Cents would be worth more than a cent back in 1910.
My coin dealer sells rolls of pennies from the 60's and 70's for $1.25 per roll, and not all of them are bank rolled or rolls from the US Mint. Some of them are rolls of all the same date compiled by collectors. There is another idea of how to profit from copper cents while the melt ban is in place, sell to collectors who are looking ofr a specific date to search for errors, varieties, etc.
(You can do this with some of the copper cents you have, sell most to the refiner to make your profits, set aside some for a numismatic play.)
Its just an idea to kick around and think about. |
Edited by - pencilvanian on 11/08/2009 19:48:01 |
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2009 : 22:24:08
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| pencivanian is right.. some that we might consider just bullion already have a premium. We see it right here on this forum where some buyers are offering a bit more for certain dates of copper cents because they want to search them for varieties. |
If your percentages are low.. just sort more. If your percentages are high.. just sort more.
Now selling Copper pennies. 1.6x plus shipping. Limited amounts available. |
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Gr33nday43
New Member
Uzbekistan
10 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2009 : 22:35:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Nickelless
quote:
Originally posted by Gr33nday43
I am waiting until I have the capabilities to melt the copper pennies and when the melt ban is lifted. There is a huge premium for these bars and I figure that practicing for a few months with many different types of metals would allow me to pour good quality bars that can be sold for a significant premium.
People who know about copper pennies know that they're 95 percent copper, so it makes perfect sense to leave them as pennies until you sell them. Otherwise, prospective buyers will have to have the metal tested to determine its components, whereas no testing is necessary with copper pennies--you know exactly what you have. I'd think there'd be even more of a premium, or at least lower expenses on the part of the seller, if the buyer doesn't ask for what he's buying to be tested for purity and content. You'd just be taking money out of your own pocket by melting the pennies. Let the buyer be the one to melt them when the melt ban is lifted, with the same caveat as above--there's no reason to melt them.
Look on eBay for the amount over spot bars are selling for...if this keeps up I will melt them and sell them, even if they have to be tested to ensure purity. |
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 02:02:48
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| Of course you wouldn't do anything illegal, right? Besides, you would have to refine the copper.. most bars are .999. I might have to sell off a few bars from my hoard if the price holds up. |
If your percentages are low.. just sort more. If your percentages are high.. just sort more.
Now selling Copper pennies. 1.6x plus shipping. Limited amounts available. |
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Lemon Thrower
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1588 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 05:10:36
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my 2 cents is once the melt ban is lifted there will be a free for all to get coins. banks are going to throw fits because every tom dick and harry will be in there and dumping the zincs right back. as a practical matter its going to make getting coppers much more difficult.
on the other end, it ought to make scrapping/refining more competitive. i would think it would boost prices. |
Buying:
Peace/Morgan G+ at $15.00
copper cents at 1.3X
wheat pennies at 3X
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Copper Catcher
Administrator
USA
2092 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 10:19:12
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If all else fails and the do not lift the melt ban and keep the penny forever. Then.....
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highroller4321
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2648 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 14:11:01
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I contacted a scrap metal place before the ban went on. They said that if I could do volume that they would take the copper pennies and pay me #2 scrap price for them.
However, if you think that smetling them is the best bet, after the ban lifts, than I would find a foundry instead of a scapper. A foundry will be able to use the copper/zinc mix as is and wont have the refining costs. This means that you should get a better price for the copper.
For those that think copper cents wont trade like 90% bags I would like to know your reasoning behind this. Almost the exact same thing that happend to 90% is happening to copper cents. The only thing that I see that hold copper cents back is the weight.
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Copper Penny Investing
www.portlandmint.com |
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Lemon Thrower
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1588 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 14:52:40
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i think copper prices will triple or so in a few years.
not sure copper will trade like 90%.
copper is useful as money only to a limited extent. its far bulkier than silver or gold, and that limits its usefulness as money.
copper will not gain versus silver or gold imho. |
Buying:
Peace/Morgan G+ at $15.00
copper cents at 1.3X
wheat pennies at 3X
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Cody8404
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
602 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 14:57:18
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For me this is a good way to hold onto some wealth and hold it in a form that is not going to depreciate, or fall victim to inflation of the dollar.
I really don't see any melting, smelting or other form of doing anything other than keeping them around safe and sound. |
Awake, O kings of the earth! Come ye, O, come ye, with your gold and your silver, to the help of my people, to the house of the daughters of Zion, to the help of the people of the God of this Land even Jesus Christ. |
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slickeast
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2533 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2009 : 23:18:03
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People are selling copper pennies right now on the forum for 1.4 cents each.
Can you tell me where I can put my money and get a 30-40% profit with no risk of losing it?
Sort out $100.00 face in copper pennies, sell for $140. Make 30% if you pay for shipping. Or make 40% if they pay for shipping.
Worst case, you have 100% of your original $100. |
You don't have to be the BEST you just have to be.......SLICK
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totalcount
Penny Sorter Member
USA
77 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2009 : 11:54:04
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quote:
Originally posted by slickeast
People are selling copper pennies right now on the forum for 1.4 cents each.
Can you tell me where I can put my money and get a 30-40% profit with no risk of losing it?
You are assuming that your time is valueless and that it takes zero money/gas/wear and tear on car to pick up more pennies. I doubt that either is true. |
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Copper exit plans?
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