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horgad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1641 Posts |
 Posted - 08/07/2007 : 07:57:31
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If it passes. it would give all power to change the composition of US coind to one person.
"Coinage Materials Modernization Act of 2007"
"To authorize the Secretary of the Treasury to prescribe the weights and the compositions of circulating coins, and for other purposes."
"Weight and Composition of Coins- The Secretary shall prescribe the weight and the composition of the dollar, half dollar, quarter dollar, dime, 5-cent, and 1-cent coins. In prescribing the weight and the composition of the dollar, half dollar, quarter dollar, dime, 5-cent, and 1-cent coins, the Secretary shall consider such factors that the Secretary considers, in the Secretary's sole discretion, to be appropriate.."
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horgad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1641 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 08:10:02
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SPEECH OF HON. LUIS V. GUTIERREZ
OF ILLINOIS IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
THURSDAY, AUGUST 2, 2007
Mr. GUTIERREZ: Madam Speaker, along with my distinguished colleague from Massachusetts, Mr. Frank, I am proud to introduce the Coinage Materials Modernization Act of 2007.
This legislation, which is supported by the Treasury Department, would update the law governing the materials used to mint U.S. coins by authorizing the Treasury Secretary to change the composition of coins to less expensive materials.
The immediate purpose of this legislation is to address the rising cost to taxpayers of minting pennies and nickels. Currently pennies are made mostly of zinc and have a copper-plated surface. Nickels are made up of an alloy of 75 percent copper and 25 percent nickel. Since March of 2003, world demand for core metals has driven up the price of copper and nickel by 300 percent and of zinc by 450 percent. At the current specifications for these coins, it costs the Government 1.7 cents to make a penny and 10 cents to make a nickel.
Other coin denominations continue to be made at costs well below their face values, but metal cost is increasing for them as well. This legislation will allow Treasury to change the composition of all U.S. coins to less expensive alternatives and dramatically reduce the costs of producing these coins.
The Treasury Department estimates that by changing the composition of pennies and nickels, we will save the Government over $100 million a year; and by making similar changes to the half dollar, quarter and dime, the Government can save as much as $400 million annually.
Under current law, the Treasury Secretary cannot change the base metals used to make our Nation's coinage without congressional action. The Secretary has the authority to vary the alloy of copper and zinc comprising the penny, but there is little room for further adjustment. This legislation would grant the Secretary the authority to change the base metals used to mint coins, potentially saving taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars, without changing the visual features of our coinage.
After this bill is enacted, the United States Mint, which is a bureau within the Treasury Department, will seek public and industry comment on possible alternative composition for the penny and the nickel. Following the comment period, there will be a competitive public bidding process for new coinage materials. Congress, particularly the Committee on Financial Services, chaired by my cosponsor, Mr. Frank, and the Subcommittee on Domestic and International Monetary Policy, Trade and Technology, which I chair, will exercise strong oversight over this process.
I encourage my colleagues to join me in supporting this legislation, which has the potential to save the Federal Government hundreds of millions of dollars annually. The financial resources of the Federal Government are limited, and it is rare when we have the opportunity to make a simple legislative fix with the potential to save the taxpayers so much. We should take full advantage of this opportunity and pass this legislation in an expeditious manner.
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Edited by - horgad on 08/07/2007 08:17:47 |
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43 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 10:57:02
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| I wonder that if this passes, it could mean that the melt ban will be soon lifted. I assume the main reason for the melt ban now is to stop hoarding because it costs the Fed so darn much to replace the hoarded pennies and nickels. But if pennies and nickels can be made of new materials cheaply, the Fed might not care about hoarding. Taking that thought to the extreme, they might actually prefer to get the old coins out of circulation since the new coins will seem much less substantial in comparison. |
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 11:18:54
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I think the melt ban will be lifted after a composition change, but I think it will not be lifted for a few years after the change. They always lag it a few years. Maybe it is to ease the transition, or it could be just because they are slow. They won't lift the ban overnight. They may decide to melt down the existing pennies and nickels themselves and recover the metals before lifting the ban for the general public.
How long do you think it will take for all pennies and nickels to vanish from circulation if there is a change in composition to cheaper materials? Better get busy sorting now.. our hoarding days may be numbered. It is going to be really difficult to get pennies and nickels once the composition is changed.
Maybe we shouldn't worry. The bill makes too much sense, and it is not like congress to pass sensible legistlation.
"Preserving coinage.. 2 tons at a time"
HoardCode0.1:M48/14USCA:US1Cu642800:US5Ni4400:CA5Ni280 |
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 11:58:58
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I took the liberty of reposting this on another hard money site. People there tend to feel that this legistlation would be unconstitional. But that doesn't seem to stop goverment form passing such laws these days.
I agree though that the ban would not be lifted for at least a couple of years after you see a lot of the new coins in circulation.
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Fanaticism is doubling one's efforts, yet forgetting one's purpose.
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horgad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1641 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 13:26:19
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"this legistlation would be unconstitional."
It would definitely be unconstitional, but at this point it doesn't really matter. The US monetary system has already been gutted by unconstitional fiat dollars and unconstitutional clad coins.
So does this pass? I have no idea. I can't figure out who this benefits besides the taxpayer, but maybe I am missing something.
Maybe the metal and coin blank suppliers figure that it will be easier/cheaper to bribe one man instead of half of congress. So maybe they look forward to the consolidation of power.
On the other if this is not a planned move on thier part, the uncertainty may freak out the metal and coin suppliers and the bill may meet strong opposition. |
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Ryedale
Administrator
USA
523 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 16:37:43
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COIN SORTERS........GET YOUR COIN SORTERS
STEP RIGHT UP........COIN SORTERS
Sorry I couldnt help it....
Ryedale
Hoard Copper Pennies,
The market will develop |
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 16:54:53
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quote:
Originally posted by horgad
The Treasury Department estimates that by changing the composition of pennies and nickels, we will save the Government over $100 million a year; and by making similar changes to the half dollar, quarter and dime, the Government can save as much as $400 million annually.
The government finally noticed they were losing $100 million in taxpayer money making pennies and nickels? This is much faster than I thought it would take them to notice a loss of a mere hundred million dollars.
I like that idea of debasing the dime, quarter and half dollar further too to save an additional $300 million. If they can find a really really cheap material to make our coins out of it will save a fortune. What do third world counties use to make their really low denomination coinage.. aluminum, steel, tin, plastic? Maybe they should just make them out of paper.. that would provide the most seignorage. They used to make tax tokens out of cardboard, plastic, fiber and other materials. Maybe they can find the old compositions for those and stamp the coins out of them.. then the coinage might truly reflect the actual value of the money they produce.
"Preserving REAL coinage.. 2 tons at a time"
HoardCode0.1:M48/14USCA:US1Cu642800:US5Ni4400:CA5Ni280 |
Edited by - HoardCopperByTheTon on 08/07/2007 16:56:19 |
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 16:59:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Ryedale
COIN SORTERS........GET YOUR COIN SORTERS
STEP RIGHT UP........COIN SORTERS
Sorry I couldnt help it....
Ryedale
Hoard Copper Pennies,
The market will develop
Are you going to run an "End of Real Coinage" sale?
"Preserving REAL coinage.. 2 tons at a time"
HoardCode0.1:M48/14USCA:US1Cu642800:US5Ni4400:CA5Ni280 |
Edited by - HoardCopperByTheTon on 08/07/2007 16:59:36 |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 18:20:51
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HoardCopperByTheTon's quote:
What do third world counties use to make their really low denomination coinage.. aluminum, steel, tin, plastic? Maybe they should just make them out of paper.. that would provide the most seignorage. They used to make tax tokens out of cardboard, plastic, fiber and other materials.
Trivia fact: during the Civil War when change was scace due to hoarding, one rubber company actually made tokens put of hard rubber(Made by the Rubber Clothing Co., New York).
Postage stamps circulated as small change, one clever inventor created a holder for the stamps so they wouldn't get mangled in "circulation". They also made fractional currency, as in paper money for five cents, ten cents, etc. Unlike the fractional currency of today, back then the fractional paper money was backed by postage stamps, not fractional banking. Say, maybe that is something to back today's currency, postage stamps. At least postage stamps have a value, at least if you want to mail a letter.
I should have chosen "Cut-n-Paste" as a forum name, since that is what I do, mostly. |
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Ryedale
Administrator
USA
523 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 19:24:31
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quote:
Originally posted by HoardCopperByTheTon
quote:
Originally posted by Ryedale
COIN SORTERS........GET YOUR COIN SORTERS
STEP RIGHT UP........COIN SORTERS
Sorry I couldnt help it....
Ryedale
Hoard Copper Pennies,
The market will develop
Are you going to run an "End of Real Coinage" sale?
"Preserving REAL coinage.. 2 tons at a time"
HoardCode0.1:M48/14USCA:US1Cu642800:US5Ni4400:CA5Ni280
HCBTT..Your always working me arent you....
Ryedale
Hoard Copper Pennies,
The market will develop |
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c140cessna
Penny Collector Member
USA
419 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 20:29:39
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Ryedale......time to go the other way on pricing once the new metals start to show up....INCREASE YOUR PRICES.....as sorting will be more difficult and Joe Sixpack Hoarder will be in a possible race against the clock if the Govt starts hoarding the better base metals and replacing them with junkier metals/materials.....I'm just kidding...but it does make a stron argument to step up the hoarding activity RIGHT FREAKIN NOW!!!!
My old goal was 3 Tons per year....new goal 5 Tons per year in copper coins.... |
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 21:13:36
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quote:
Originally posted by c140cessna
Ryedale......time to go the other way on pricing once the new metals start to show up....INCREASE YOUR PRICES.....as sorting will be more difficult and Joe Sixpack Hoarder will be in a possible race against the clock if the Govt starts hoarding the better base metals and replacing them with junkier metals/materials.....I'm just kidding...but it does make a strong argument to step up the hoarding activity RIGHT FREAKIN NOW!!!!
My old goal was 3 Tons per year....new goal 5 Tons per year in copper coins....
If the average guy is Joe Sixpack Hoarder, does that make you Joe Beertruck Hoarder? I agree with you about it being time to step up our hoarding activity right now!!! I used to figure we had about a 2 year window.. but it looks like that window may be closing early.
5 TONS is a lofty goal. How about we have a race to 3 tons?
"Preserving REAL coinage.. 2 tons at a time"
HoardCode0.1:M48/14USCA:US1Cu642800:US5Ni4400:CA5Ni280 |
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 21:22:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Ryedale
HCBTT..Your always working me arent you....
Ryedale
I just couldn't resist
I think I might just have to have you build me another machine so I can step up production and stay ahead of c140cessna.
I Love my Ryedale machine!
"Preserving REAL coinage.. 2 tons at a time"
HoardCode0.1:M48/14USCA:US1Cu642800:US5Ni4400:CA5Ni280 |
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Hirbonzig
Penny Collector Member
USA
451 Posts |
Posted - 08/07/2007 : 22:55:28
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1959-1981
141,414,964,705 copper cents minted
OR
484,797 short tons of copper cents
Now,more than ever is the time to keep the real money in the pockets of the people!
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43 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2007 : 07:52:04
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| Back in the 70's for several years the mint made pennies out of aluminum, due to the rising copper prices. These were never distributed, however. So, it looks like aluminum would be a good candidate for new coins, especially since they already have a hoard of them. |
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43 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2007 : 09:19:18
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On further digging, it looks like most of the aluminum cents were destroyed, and the vending machine industry nixed the change to aluminum:
"In 1973, the price of copper rose to the point where the cost of producing Lincoln cents, then composed of brass, came dangerously close to one cent apiece. Faced with the prospect of losing money on the coin, plus increased demand for cents and an attendant cent shortage, the U.S. Mint sought authorization from Congress to change the composition of the coin. A resolution was introduced on Dec. 7, 1973, giving the Secretary of the Treasury power to change the alloy, and the Mint took immediate steps to switch from brass to aluminum starting with the cents of 1974.
In fact, it went so far as to actually produce more than 1.5 million aluminum cents during the closing weeks of 1973. These were dated 1974 and apparently were intended for issuance after the start of the new year. But strenuous opposition arose from the vending-machine industry, which claimed the lighter-weight coins would jam its equipment, and also from the medical profession, which said they would pose a health threat if swallowed. In the midst of all this controversy, the price of copper receded -- so the Mint threw in the towel and continued making cents from brass until 1982, when it changed their composition to the present content, which is predominantly zinc with a copper barrel plating. All but a handful of those 1.5 million aluminum cents were melted. At least a few are known to be in private hands, however, since very small numbers were loaned to members of Congress and their staffs during legislative discussions on the proposed change and some -- perhaps a dozen or so -- never were returned, despite the Mint's vigorous efforts to recover them." |
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43 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2007 : 09:47:06
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| One more thought. It looks like in the 1970's the switch to aluminum was foiled (no pun intended) by the vending machine industry. But today we have sophisticated coin comparators that could easily be set to accept aluminum coins, right? |
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NiBullionCu
Penny Pincher Member
USA
168 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2007 : 10:44:34
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I didn't think there were any "cheap" base metals left?
Let's do a little thought experiment.
The cent currently weighs 2.5 gram.
Let's assume it will stay at that.
and lets say the metal has to be less than 50% face value.
aluminum = $1.19/Lb; 2.5gm aluminum = 0.65¢, nope >50%
Zinc = $1.59/Lb; 2.5gm Zn = 0.87¢, nope >50%
Steel = (steel coil) $600/ton; 2.5gm = 0.16¢, ding ding ding
The only metal that makes sense as a replacement is a copper plated steel....
Hey, just like Canada!
I pulled the $600/ton for coiled steel off the net.
Considering the quantity that would be used,
the mint will probably get a better price than that.
(or not, considering graft and kickbacks).
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horgad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1641 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2007 : 11:58:18
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"One more thought. It looks like in the 1970's the switch to aluminum was foiled (no pun intended) by the vending machine industry. But today we have sophisticated coin comparators that could easily be set to accept aluminum coins, right?"
The vending companies don't care about the penny at this point, but yes I would think that transitioning other coins would be much easier now than 1970. However, I think they will still resist because easy multiplied by a bizillion machines adds up to alot of work.
Also I don't think the mint would consider pure aluminum coins for higher denominations. It would be too easy to make slugs. Aluminum has a low melting temperature (you can melt it on a stove) so it would be easy to make slugs out of it. Also it is soft so you could punch out slugs out of sheeting if you could find the right thickness.
Steel would be a little harder to make slugs out of, but if you had the means to punch them out they would darn cheap to make. Which brings up the question if you make a coin with a steel center and some kind of plating are the machines sensitive enough to tell the difference between them and a pure steel slug?
In general if the make the manufacturing cost of coins too cheap, it opens the door to economical slugs. Which might bother the vending machines companies as much as having to rejigger all those comparitors. |
Edited by - horgad on 08/08/2007 12:01:15 |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2007 : 13:32:02
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Just a thought and a comment on the vending machine issue.
Back in the 70's vending machines were not as electronically geared to determining a coin's metal content like today. Decades ago the operation was more mechanical than electrical. Today vending machines have electronics inside that can determine one coin from another. (Like the saying goes, we've come a long way baby.)
I suspect that the vending machine manufacturers could install new electronics/new programming to their vending machines to handle the new coins for the following reasons:
A) The manufacturers are multi-nationals who sell to Europe and Asia where the coins are not always cupro-nickel. They have to have the technology to recognize these steel & aluminum coins or lose market share to other companies.
B) The vending machine manufacturers buy the electronic components to tell the difference between one kind of coin from another. Much like a car or computer company, they don't make the parts themselves, they rely on suppliers.
I watched an employee from a vending company refill a few vending machines one day. I saw that the electronic box that the coins slide through could be removed if the electronics went bad (Interchangable parts at its finest.)
I think they did a changeover to recognize the Brass dollar coins so a changover again might be doable.
Considering that it will take the US Mint a year, minimum, to switchover to new alloys to work with, changing/readjusting the minting machines to handle the new metal, making sure the coin dies and the new alloy will work adequitely together (no overpunching, producing too many error coins, etc.) making sure the coin counting machines can count the new coins accurately, and who knows what else that has to get done to handle a swithcover from one matal to another smoothly, I'd say that we are in for at least a year or two before coins with the new alloy are in circulation, and that is if everything goes smoothly and according to plan (something that rarely happens in the realm of the government.)
I should have chosen "Cut-n-Paste" as a forum name, since that is what I do, mostly. |
Edited by - pencilvanian on 08/08/2007 13:45:24 |
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Metalophile
Penny Collector Member
USA
320 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2007 : 13:34:26
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I think the vending machine industry will fight this tooth and nail. If Sec. Treas. can decide on a whim to change composition of the beloved quarter, even though it's value is well above melt value, then the vending machine guys might be forced to overhaul their machines much more frequently. Shucks, it's like pulling teeth to get the company that services our coke machines at work to accept small dollar coins, and they've been around since 1979!
Metalophile |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2007 : 13:53:55
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Sounds like the vending company at your place of work are stuck in the 70's, Metalophile. They must operate along the lines "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".
Considering some of the vending machines up my way, especially the kind that takes credit and debit cards, this vendor you refer to must be in the pre-electronic coin analizer days, or the stone age days. Is Fred Flinstone the vendor?
I should have chosen "Cut-n-Paste" as a forum name, since that is what I do, mostly. |
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2007 : 14:38:33
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They could switch the composition of the penny to whatever they want and it shouldn't cause any problems with the vending machine industry. The coins would just get rejected like pennies do now. How many machines do you know that accept pennies?
I don't know if our vending machines at work take the small dollars or not. They eat all other coins and pretend to be asleep so I am afraid to risk a dollar. I am just happy when the darn machines work.
I agree that the vending machine industry will probably fight this bill. The cost of replacing all those coin comparitors would be huge if it is up to one guy to suddenly get greedy and change the composition of the quarter to make the government a little extra profit.
Whatever happened to the good old days when nations and other coin producers where proud of their coinage? If you got a tetradracm of Athens with the Owl on it or a Corinthian stater with a pegasus on it you knew you had a coin of good silver weight and fineness (with the exception of certain emergency issues during war) Those coins were recognized across the world and trusted. They used to adjust the silver weight of the coinage in the US to make sure you got full value and would put arrows next to the date to signify a weight change. Is not a nation's coinage a reflection of that nation? What does this nation want our coinage to say about us?
"Preserving REAL coinage.. 2 tons at a time"
HoardCode0.1:M48/14USCA:US1Cu642800:US5Ni4400:CA5Ni280 |
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43 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2007 : 15:32:56
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The switch may be sooner rather than later. Look at the timing from last time:
"A resolution was introduced on Dec. 7, 1973, giving the Secretary of the Treasury power to change the alloy, and the Mint took immediate steps to switch from brass to aluminum starting with the cents of 1974. In fact, it went so far as to actually produce more than 1.5 million aluminum cents during the closing weeks of 1973. These were dated 1974 and apparently were intended for issuance after the start of the new year."
Incredibly fast. They introduced the resolution on Dec 7, 1973, and within 3 weeks had 1.5 million aluminum coins made! They had intended to start circulating them in January 1974. That's less than one month after they introduced the resolution. If we follow a similar timeline this time around, we will have new coins by this Labor Day. |
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just carl
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
601 Posts |
Posted - 08/09/2007 : 20:37:32
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Face reality. Since when does the government really care about spending money on anything. The spend Billions all the time as if it was play money. Regardless of what they ever make coins out of the cost would still end up higher than the coin is worth.
Now if the government really wanted to save money and help the invironment, they should look into our garbage dumps for material for coins. Make giant smelters, dump all our garbage into them, take the stuff that comes out and make coins out of it. So what if some coins smell a little. And think of all the Gold, Silver, Platinum, Tin, Zinc, etc that is just laying there doing nothing. Millions and millions of tons of garbage to make coins out of. No more garbage. No more waste.
Then naturally the coins would now have a picture of me on them for making that suggestion.
Carl |
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New Law Would Make It Easy To Change Coins
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