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TenBears
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1021 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2007 : 16:33:54
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| Thanks, myfundsarelow. According to coinflation, it takes about $3,075 in pennies to make a ton. Even though I like sorting, I don't think I will ever acquire a ton in copper pennies. |
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c140cessna
Penny Collector Member
USA
419 Posts |
 Posted - 07/06/2007 : 21:22:53
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[/quote]Very impressive #'s! I better get busy or you are going to pass me pretty soon. How did you manage to talk the banks out of 28 boxes? Do you preorder them or just go to every bank in town and try to get 2-3 boxes from each. When I order large orders of pennies they always insist that I pick them up the same day the armored car delivers them because they say they don't have enough vault space to store all my pennies.
"Preserving coinage.. 2 tons at a time"
HoardCode0.1:M48/14USCA:US1Cu639700:US5Ni2400:CA5Ni46
[/quote]
I only pre-order 4 boxes per week. I "BUY" roughly another 4 - 6 boxes (not boxed, but loose bagged) from a few Credit Unions. The rest of the boxes I get come from TRADE for my sorted zincs. Nearly all my sorted zincs get commercial wrapped in my Brandt Wrapper. I then re-box them into the bank boxes and hot-glue the box shut. I add a date code to the sorted boxes: Zmmddyy....ex: Z070607 means Zinc July 06 2007.
I deal with 7 to 10 banks in my town of 40,000. All the girls know me now and understand I am the "Penny Guy".....they will swap 100% of what they have in the vault for what I bring in to trade. Sometimes I can swap my full load in just 3 or 4 banks.....if that happens, I rush back home and sort those and then hit the remaining banks. I did that 2 times this week.
Since I harvest copper at about 30% rate (just call it 1/3), if I keep my total sort per week to about 3X the amount I "Buy" (buy $250FV).....I can sort around $750FV per week....keep about $250FV Copper......trade back about $500 Zinc....."Buy" another $250FV......sort another $750FV the next week. See how that works?!? I can sort $750/wk and hoard $250/wk (about 160 - 200# of copper) forever!
I have reduced my 401k to the minimum to get my employeer match.....all the rest of my monthly savings is being diverted into my hoard. I'm clipping along at about $1000/mo right now and things are super tight....in fact, I'm dipping into my previous established savings to keep that pace. But, if you have a savings....why not have it in copper backed REAL MONEY as opposed to s%it paper!!!!!
My goal is 3 tons of copper hoarded per year.....cost $1.50/lb = $3000/ton.....3 tons = $9000/year. Actual LME Copper Value = $3.50/lb = $7000/ton.....3 tons = $21,000. POTENTIAL PROFIT = $12,000/yr. I do not know that I'll ever get anywhere near 100% LME....but it does not matter....I never get less than my $3000/ton initial investment.
In my opinion (and by the way - I am a complete raving nut bag...follow my lead at your own risk....) I expect to see the US Dollar Index drop to 50% of the current 81ish within the next 5 years due to monster monetary inflation. I expect to see never ending INCREASING demand for base metals as the world populations increases and their standard of living increases. PREDICTION: $5/lb Copper within next 1-2 years.....$10/lb Copper in 5 - 8 years. When copper hits $10/lb.....I'll probably be able get 75% LME or $7.50/lb.....that will be 5X my initial investment.....every copper penny I have will be worth 5 cents. My $9000/yr Hoard will become nearly $50,000/year.....at 5 to 8 years out will be a total value of $250,000 to $400,000. That is serious money. Even if it is partially due to inflation....my current mortgage is locked in at 4.75%....I'll pay off PRESENT VALUE DEBT with FUTURE VALUE INFLATED MONEY.
If one does the math - you can see that hoarding pennies is not some cheap skate mizer hobby.....it is a serious investment plan.
Boys - get all the P.M. and B.M. you can afford and get is soon.....
I have first hand experience chasing Canadian Nickels...in about 6 months it has went from 25% .999Ni in every box to well under 20% and probably 70% of the boxes at the banks have been sorted. It is now no longer worth while for the average guy to try to chase these ....there are at least 4 major commercial outfits sorting the Canadian Nickels......if this ever happens to the US Copper....it will only take a few months to destroy the copper hunting.
Now is the time to get off your tails, drop some coin on a Ryedale sorter and start plowing every spare penny you have into hoarding copper pennies.
Happy sorting! |
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2007 : 02:55:01
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I like the way you figure c140cessna. I also like your enthusiasm. I feel the same way you do.. there is money out there just for the taking.. only requires a little effort and a small amount of capital. The only thing I do differently is to sell off part of the hoard as I sort it to fund the purchase of more raw material. By churning it I can can build a larger hoard and can get the base price down below $3000 a ton. The key is volume. And now is always better than later.. the sorting percentages are only going to diminish over time. I look at a 2 year horizon rather than 5-8 years because I figure something will shake out in 2009 and we really can only expect a couple of more years of good sorting. I agree with you that we all need to get busy and grab what we can while we can.
I like the way you cycle your zincs by trading them in on new mixed boxes. I used to roll mine with my 2 Glory wrapping machines that each roll 10 rolls per minute, but I have gotten a little lazy lately.. one of my banks takes the zincs loose in bags that they supply so I have been turning them in that way. One of my high speed Glory counting machines counts about 2000 coins a minute so it takes virtually no time to fill up several bags with my zinc rejects. Automation is the key.
To quote old Honest Abe "Good things come to those who wait.. but only those things left by those who hustle"
"Preserving coinage.. 2 tons at a time"
HoardCode0.1:M48/14USCA:US1Cu639700:US5Ni2400:CA5Ni46 |
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2007 : 03:06:27
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quote:
Originally posted by texcattlerancher
Thanks, myfundsarelow. According to coinflation, it takes about $3,075 in pennies to make a ton. Even though I like sorting, I don't think I will ever acquire a ton in copper pennies.
I think that figure is for mixed pennies texcattlerancher. I seem to remember reading somewhere that it takes 147-152 copper cents to make a pound so I just figure it at 3 rolls per pound or 6,000 rolls per ton. You would be surprised at how fast you can accomeulate a ton or 2 if you really get into some serious sorting.
"Preserving coinage.. 2 tons at a time"
HoardCode0.1:M48/14USCA:US1Cu639700:US5Ni2400:CA5Ni46 |
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Hirbonzig
Penny Collector Member
USA
451 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2007 : 09:54:57
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24 rolls
316 copper 26.33%
38 82's
2 wheats
1 canada
I picked up my first box this morning and hope to have it sorted by tonight with my daughters help. |
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c140cessna
Penny Collector Member
USA
419 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2007 : 17:41:58
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Picked up another $650FV for sorting over the past 2 days...that makes it $1600FV sorted in the past 8 days.
Results:
$650FV = 26 Boxes.
3 Boxes were brand new 2007D.
Of the remaining 23 boxes: 29% Copper.....right on the money for S.E. Michigan.
Added another 110 Lbs to the copper hoard. |
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2007 : 19:02:39
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quote:
Originally posted by c140cessna
Picked up another $650FV for sorting over the past 2 days...that makes it $1600FV sorted in the past 8 days.
Results:
$650FV = 26 Boxes.
3 Boxes were brand new 2007D.
Of the remaining 23 boxes: 29% Copper.....right on the money for S.E. Michigan.
Added another 110 Lbs to the copper hoard.
Why do you suppose you are consistantly getting around 30% while the rest of us around the country generally get 5-10% less? You would think as hard as you and Andy are hitting it that you would eventually run through the excess copper in your area and start getting lower percentages like the rest of us. I am happy for you that you are getting such good percentages but these regional variances intrigue me. It seems most of the country gets 20-25% except TX where they seem to get about 15% but Michigan is the only place folks seem to be getting 30%.
"Preserving coinage.. 2 tons at a time"
HoardCode0.1:M48/14USCA:US1Cu639700:US5Ni2400:CA5Ni46 |
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TenBears
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1021 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2007 : 19:12:02
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| Is anybody actually collecting tons of pennies who are hand sorters? It seems to me that in order to do that without a mechanical sorter, one should buy nickels in bulk, rather than trying to hand sort a bunch of pennies. I'm going to go look up a ton of copper contained in nickels on coinflation and see how much that is. |
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TenBears
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1021 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2007 : 19:20:10
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| Regarding my previous, $3000 in nickels totals 496 pounds in copper and about 195 pounds in nickel if my memory is correct from visiting coinflation a few minutes ago. It would take a lot of nickels to make a ton of copper. I will stick to hand sorting pennies. So, that leaves more for you copperheads with the mechanical copper harvesters. Its like harvesting a farm crop that you didn't have to plant! |
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Hirbonzig
Penny Collector Member
USA
451 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2007 : 19:53:45
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My first box was a dud. 100% 2007-D
Had an easy time sorting, most of the time was spent on peeling open the rolls.
If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. |
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c140cessna
Penny Collector Member
USA
419 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2007 : 21:04:01
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quote:
Originally posted by HoardCopperByTheTon
quote:
Originally posted by c140cessna
Picked up another $650FV for sorting over the past 2 days...that makes it $1600FV sorted in the past 8 days.
Results:
$650FV = 26 Boxes.
3 Boxes were brand new 2007D.
Of the remaining 23 boxes: 29% Copper.....right on the money for S.E. Michigan.
Added another 110 Lbs to the copper hoard.
Why do you suppose you are consistantly getting around 30% while the rest of us around the country generally get 5-10% less? You would think as hard as you and Andy are hitting it that you would eventually run through the excess copper in your area and start getting lower percentages like the rest of us. I am happy for you that you are getting such good percentages but these regional variances intrigue me. It seems most of the country gets 20-25% except TX where they seem to get about 15% but Michigan is the only place folks seem to be getting 30%.
"Preserving coinage.. 2 tons at a time"
HoardCode0.1:M48/14USCA:US1Cu639700:US5Ni2400:CA5Ni46
Here are my thoughts on why I'm seeing 30% Cu in the penny population in S.E. Michigan:
I know of only 3 guys in S.E. Michigan seriously going after copper with a Ryedale machine. S.E. Mich has over 4 Million population. All my sorting is conducted in my town of 40,000 population and just 10 banks....I'm near Flint MI and the county I'm in has about 500,000 population.....I bet there are over 150 banks in my county and probably over 1500 in S.E. Mich.....with just 3 guys working it, we are not even putting a dent in it. I imaging over time, all the piggy banks in my town of 40k will be saturated with Zinc because nearly every bank in town is getting my sorted boxes and they give them out to customers and commercial accounts. Nearly everything I sort is in bank boxes (very few customer rolls) - these bank boxes come from Detroit (Detroit Branch of Chicago Federal Reserve Bank)....so the fresh boxes hitting my town every week are coming from Detroit where there are only 2 guys with Ryedale machines....so, I expect 30% to continue for a long time.
Now, as to why our basic penny population is 30% copper while SoCal is 20% and TX is 15%?!?!? Hard to say....perhaps regional economies that are slower (depressed....like Flint/Detroit) have less economic activity and thus less coin trafic and the coins do not need to be replaced as often. I think most pennies used in commerce end up in a piggy bank and the FED has to issue new pennies to replace them. Higher regional economy activity = more new pennies from the FED.....slower activity = less new pennies. Also, I think that in a depressed economy people are more apt to turn in hoarded change for FRN's .....so the piggy banks end up at the banks and they circulate back to the FED in Detroit and eventually into my Ryedale Sorting Machine.
BTW: S.E. Michigan has been in a recession/depression for the past 20 years. Remember that movie "Roger & Me"...well, that was Flint, MI. General Motors had over 80,000 workers in Flint in the early/mid 1980's and in just 3 years it dropped to 30,000. We had a 25% unemployment rate. Over the next 20 years, those 30,000 jobs have dropped to less than 6,000. There has been no new industry in S.E. Michigan in 30 years. Michigan was dead last in Real Estate price appreciation over the past 5 years - not even pacing inflation...we never saw the "bubble" up ....but we are now dropping about 5 - 10% per year in home prices. Flint is just like Detroit but 1/10 the size. Over the past 20 years, we have experienced the de-industrialization that the rest of the US is just now starting to experience.
That is just my guess. Curious to hear others thoughts. |
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Jason
Penny Pincher Member
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 07/07/2007 : 23:12:42
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I sorted 40 rolls today
279 copper
37 1982
2 wheats
1 canadian
That's 13.95% copper which is about average for around here. I'm going to start visiting banks in surrounding towns to see if i can find a hot spot. All this talk about 20-30% has got me envious:) |
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2007 : 02:21:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Jason
I sorted 40 rolls today
279 copper
37 1982
2 wheats
1 canadian
That's 13.95% copper which is about average for around here. I'm going to start visiting banks in surrounding towns to see if i can find a hot spot. All this talk about 20-30% has got me envious:)
Welcome to the board, Jason. Hang in there, your percentages will get better. What part of the country are you from? One way I can see to increase your percentages is to get a reasonably priced digital scale so you can sort those 82 pennies. That will definately improve your numbers. Even though the production figures for copper and zinc were about even it seems the copper pennies have a much better survivability. So when guys finally get around to sorting their 1982 cents they find that about 75% or more of them will be copper. You can generally get one of those scales for about $10-12. It will also speed your sorting up a little compared to eyeballing each penny. It is definately the best bang for your buck unless you are going to be a really serious sorter and make that big jump to buying one of those awesome Rydale sorting machines that will sort 18-20 thousand coins per hour.
Sorting report for today:
5 rolls customer wrapped pennies
53 Copper
21.2%
Just about average for my area in Northern CA. Darn, I should move to Michigan!
Buying Report for today:
Only got to 2 banks today.. the female half doesn't quite understand my obsession with gathering pennies and she notices if I disappear for too long on a Saturday.. LOL
Washington Mutual Bank - Livermore
111 customer wrapped rolls of pennies
Bank of America - Livermore
2 Boxes Bank wrapped pennies
"Preserving coinage.. 2 tons at a time"
HoardCode0.1:M48/14USCA:US1Cu639700:US5Ni2400:CA5Ni46 |
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Jason
Penny Pincher Member
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2007 : 13:18:03
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| Thanks for the welcome, HCBTT. I hang my hat in Waynesboro, Mississippi; one of the few places in the world where the chicken population vastly outnumbers the human population:) I have a postal scale, but it won't measure weights that small. what i do have is a really old double pan balance. It's been broken and welded and is no where near balanced anymore, but i'm going to try and fix it by filing some metal off. If i can get it half way accurate i can compare 82's to a pre 82. I wish i had the funds to be able to sort 20 thousand coins per hour, but for now i can eye what little i do get to sort. |
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TenBears
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1021 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2007 : 13:33:34
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This weekend's box:
5 wheat
98 1982s
485 copper (19.4%)
Adding in the wheat and 75% of the 82s gives a total copper percentage of 22.5%. Does anyone know of any free coin counters in the Dallas/Fort Worth metroplex? I have several boxes of zincs to unload, and I don't want to roll them. |
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n/a
deleted
19 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2007 : 15:56:57
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atlanta georgia reporting in
weekend totals
80 rolls(my mostest amount)
13.4% sigh
7 wheaties yea...not the whole grain ones though
2 canucks
lots of soap for hands and placemat
lots of relaxing entertainment
first jug almost full, a 5 lb plastic tub of protien powder -the powder.
God Bless the copperheads! |
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Hirbonzig
Penny Collector Member
USA
451 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2007 : 21:44:26
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Sorted 50 rolls gathered from 3 grocery store banks.
642 copper --25.68%
86 1982's ---3.44%
14 wheats(1916-s and 1943 steel)
7 canada
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Hirbonzig
Penny Collector Member
USA
451 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2007 : 22:15:41
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What is the best way to get multiple boxes (4 or more) of pennies from my bank? When I go in it takes them a while to find a teller that has 1 box to spare. I find it hard to believe that a bank would be that low on coin.
How often dose the average bank recieve boxes of coins? Can an order be placed with the bank for large amounts of coin, or dose one need a business reason for coins in bulk?
Hoping to step it up a notch. |
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c140cessna
Penny Collector Member
USA
419 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2007 : 23:21:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Hirbonzig
What is the best way to get multiple boxes (4 or more) of pennies from my bank? When I go in it takes them a while to find a teller that has 1 box to spare. I find it hard to believe that a bank would be that low on coin.
How often dose the average bank recieve boxes of coins? Can an order be placed with the bank for large amounts of coin, or dose one need a business reason for coins in bulk?
Hoping to step it up a notch.
Several banks I deal with have less than 1 box on hand. It all depends on if the branch does a lot of commercial accounts (like the local gas stations, laundry, restaurants, etc....if they have a lot of retail business accounts then they have lots of coin orders. Try to target the banks at or near a lot of business activity in your town (mall banks are nice as they service a few hundred businesses in the mall...) Most banks order 1 or 2 times per week....with a 3 or 4 day lead time on coin orders. Most will simply order coin for you if you ask. If you want to have a standing order of a few boxes every week, they will do that, but try not to mis your pick-up date....most of these banks do not have a lot of room to store coin. Most have a little room about the size of a closet back where the vault and safety deposid boxes are - in that small room, they typically have a little shelve of cupboard they keep the boxed coin in. Typically, they have 1 teller responsible for the coin vault. Go in and ask for the "Coin Teller" or the "Central Teller" - tell them you are interested in ordering coin. Once you get to know the gal, she will look forward to seeing you every week. Be nice to them and they will be nice to you. Build up a little extra zinc and keep it in your trunk...soemtimes they may be low on pennies and you can ask if they need any extra, you can sell them a box...I do this more often than you think....they remember this and often extend me the offer to not only buy the 4 boxes I ordered, but sell me a few more....the key is to build a relationship with the "coin teller". |
Edited by - c140cessna on 07/09/2007 06:55:20 |
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MormonMetal
Penny Pincher Member
USA
150 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2007 : 17:49:48
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another $10 batch
I shouldn't have complained about getting 10 % before, because I've just broke below that: 9.2%. A new low, but more copper than I had before. North Georgia seems to be cleaned out pretty well. But atleast I was sorting at work. Nice to get paid while sorting. 
-MM |
Edited by - MormonMetal on 07/09/2007 17:53:31 |
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ME CO
Penny Pincher Member
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2007 : 18:05:32
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| Well I am back at it now. Finally had time to swing by a branch and got two boxes. I haven't sorted anything for at least a week so anxious to get started. Mark |
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2007 : 21:32:27
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quote:
Originally posted by MormonMetal
another $10 batch
I shouldn't have complained about getting 10 % before, because I've just broke below that: 9.2%. A new low, but more copper than I had before. North Georgia seems to be cleaned out pretty well. But atleast I was sorting at work. Nice to get paid while sorting.
-MM
Looks like you guys in Georgia have it rough. I think you now hold the record low for the board. If cessna's theory is right then it must be because their is booming economic activity in Georgia. Is there a hugely robust economy there that we don't know about? The economy has been pretty good here in Northern CA but I am still getting about 20-22%. See if you can't find some banks or credit unions that do less business banking and more regular people banking. Guess I better make up another care package for you. Got your shipment the other day.
"Preserving coinage.. 2 tons at a time"
HoardCode0.1:M48/14USCA:US1Cu639700:US5Ni2400:CA5Ni46 |
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2007 : 21:55:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Hirbonzig
What is the best way to get multiple boxes (4 or more) of pennies from my bank? When I go in it takes them a while to find a teller that has 1 box to spare. I find it hard to believe that a bank would be that low on coin.
How often dose the average bank recieve boxes of coins? Can an order be placed with the bank for large amounts of coin, or dose one need a business reason for coins in bulk?
Hoping to step it up a notch.
Cessna offers great advise. The key is to find out who at the bank orders the coin, when they order and when it is delivered. Keep in mind that this person has to take care of their merchant customers first, so don't expect them to give you all their pennies. If you can get on a regular order plan and pick it up the day it comes in that usually works well for everyone. Some banks are nicer about this than others. This is why there are banks on every corner.. so if you don't like the way one is treating you just walk across the street to another one. If you are going to do 4-6 boxes per trip it is a good idea to have a couple of carrying bags with handles on them to ferry your treasure out. Unless you are a stud like Canadian_Nickle with strap on devices with which he can carry 7 boxes of nickels, you don't want to attempt to carry much more than half a dozen boxes at once. If you are going to step it up to the next level you might want to consider some type of cart. This makes it much easier for your "new best friend" at the bank too. You just give them your empty cart and have them load it up. This way they are not lugging all those heavy boxes to the counter. When I was picking up 40 boxes per week I would get 24 boxes at one bank, 12 at another and 4 from a smaller bank. The 24 boxes weighed in at around 400 pounds! So the cart really came in handy.. imagine trying to lug all those pennies out to your car. The flat platform carts tend to work the best for hauling pennies. Mine has a fold down handle so it fits easily in the trunk and it has a capacity of 660 pounds. These carts also come in very handy when you want to cart your zinc in to cash it in. Be really nice to the coin person at the bank and they will take good care of you. You might offer to buy all those unwanted dollar coins they can never get rid of. You just spend them on your daily purchases.
"Preserving coinage.. 2 tons at a time"
HoardCode0.1:M48/14USCA:US1Cu639700:US5Ni2400:CA5Ni46 |
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2007 : 22:05:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Jason
Thanks for the welcome, HCBTT. I hang my hat in Waynesboro, Mississippi; one of the few places in the world where the chicken population vastly outnumbers the human population:) I have a postal scale, but it won't measure weights that small. what i do have is a really old double pan balance. It's been broken and welded and is no where near balanced anymore, but i'm going to try and fix it by filing some metal off. If i can get it half way accurate i can compare 82's to a pre 82. I wish i had the funds to be able to sort 20 thousand coins per hour, but for now i can eye what little i do get to sort.
So does that mean you get to eat chicken cheap? I hail from Livermore, CA; where all the residents glow in the dark. Something to do with the residual radiation from the Lab or something like that. It doesn't take much funds to do 20,000 coins. That is only 200 bucks. You could do it with a small amount and just cycle it several times like cessna does. The really great thing about this hobby is there are no big barriers to entry. You don't have to have tons of capital to get in. Any guy with 50 cents in his pocket can buy a roll and become a sorter.
You can probably fix the balance scale well enough by just using sand or something as a counterbalance weight. Just use 2 copper pennies and add sand until it balances. If you can't get that to work you can probably rig up some kind of crude balance beam with a popcicle stick.. you just need to find someting to use as a fulcrum.
"Preserving coinage.. 2 tons at a time"
HoardCode0.1:M48/14USCA:US1Cu639700:US5Ni2400:CA5Ni46 |
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myfundsarelow
Penny Collector Member
USA
388 Posts |
Posted - 07/09/2007 : 22:18:53
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| hello jason i have been useing a balance consisting of one small ice cream stick with both coners rounded to the size of a cent this stick goes on 6 sided pencel center the stick then glue all sides that touch the pencil then tape a 1983 or later cent to one side of the stick if coin is copper on the other side it will fall the stick will drop down a 1982copper will also drop PS use a push pin to hold the ice cream stick in place till the glue dries i have done many many cents with no problem all cents that are copper or zinc can be checked its also easy on the eyes the stick i have is only 4 inches long i picked up this idea from this forum i dont recall his name but i wish to thank him again so give him the credit for this idea PEACE! |
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Sorting Percentages V & buying reports.
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