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n/a
deleted
146 Posts |
 Posted - 04/29/2007 : 00:22:28
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Going by the prices on Coinflation, the half dollar coin is apparently the most expensive for the Mint to produce ($0.1313854/coin, unless you can find any Eisenhowers today, frankly I never heard of them until I found Coinflation).
However, the half dollar would likely be dropped in the event that everyone hoards it, since no one uses them. In second place would be the very convenient and very common quarter ($0.0656924 * 40 per roll).
If one person hoarded one roll ($10) of (40) quarters every week for one year, assuming commodity prices stay the same (which they won't):
$0.0656924 * 40 * 52 = $136.64/yr for the Mint to replace the amount of quarters.
If ten people did this for a year (or one person for ten years): $1,366.40
30.2 million (1% of the population, according to census.gov): $412,653,379.84/yr
If 100% of the current population did it: $41,265,337,984.00/yr (almost 7x the current deficit!)
This does not include the costs to the Federal Reserve that I mentioned, which I know nothing about.
So it does have a significant impact.
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"The best way to destroy the capitalist system is to debauch the currency. By a continuing process of inflation governments can confiscate, secretly and unobserved, an important part of the wealth of their citizens." -John Maynard Keynes
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psi
Penny Collector Member
Canada
399 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2007 : 01:35:06
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| I'm not sure I follow, surely if you're paying over 4x melt for those coins then the mint comes out ahead on seignorage? |
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146 Posts |
 Posted - 04/29/2007 : 15:24:24
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quote:
Originally posted by psi
I'm not sure I follow, surely if you're paying over 4x melt for those coins then the mint comes out ahead on seignorage?
Yes, the Mint loses less money than what would be the case if the quarter was worth more than the metal value, but these are the values for the present circomestances. Also, you lose money otherwise gained through interest or dividends if you hoarded anything at all.
Replace $0.0656924 above with $0.25, and you get a $520/yr loss for the Mint (instead of $136.64/yr).
I just had a thought, given the amount of people "collecting" state quarters (despite the fact that it's completely pointless from a financial point of view since everyone else does), this could really work.
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"The best way to destroy the capitalist system is to debauch the currency. By a continuing process of inflation governments can confiscate, secretly and unobserved, an important part of the wealth of their citizens." -John Maynard Keynes |
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psi
Penny Collector Member
Canada
399 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2007 : 16:52:11
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| I still don't follow your reasoning. Say if the mint makes quarters at a cost of $.08 (adding on a bit for manufacturing costs) and sells them to us for $0.25, wouldn't they make a profit of $0.17 on each coin? |
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n/a
deleted
146 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2007 : 20:46:27
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Hmmm, true, if they exchange them with the banks for paper they still make a profit.
I was only taking into account the manufacturing costs.
So much for "fighting the Man." To paraphrase John Mellencamp, the Man always wins. :)
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"The best way to destroy the capitalist system is to debauch the currency. By a continuing process of inflation governments can confiscate, secretly and unobserved, an important part of the wealth of their citizens." -John Maynard Keynes |
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beercritic
Penny Pincher Member
USA
112 Posts |
Posted - 04/29/2007 : 21:17:20
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Er, coinflation just reports the metal value of the coins, omitting the overhead and labor. The mint would be delighted for folks to stock up on anything except 1 & 5 cent coins.
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146 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2007 : 07:25:07
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quote:
Originally posted by beercritic
Er, coinflation just reports the metal value of the coins, omitting the overhead and labor. The mint would be delighted for folks to stock up on anything except 1 & 5 cent coins.
True, but it's still pointless given the fact that there are so many other coin denominations minted.
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"The best way to destroy the capitalist system is to debauch the currency. By a continuing process of inflation governments can confiscate, secretly and unobserved, an important part of the wealth of their citizens." -John Maynard Keynes |
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Cerulean
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
993 Posts |
Posted - 04/30/2007 : 08:08:29
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Could we screw the Fed by doing something similar with dollar bills? Is it possible to generate a dollar bill shortage, thus forcing the dollar coin into circulation and denying the Fed their serious chunk of seignorage?
* The Fed gets $1 for every dollar bill released, but only pays the BEP about 6 cents for each one, giving them a $0.94 profit.
* About 45% of all bills printed in 2006 are $1 bills. Our smallest bill circulates in higher quantities than all other denominations combined.
* Do the math. If the dollar bill disappears, that's a lot of lost income for the Fed. I think the Fed is the real reason why the dollar bill refuses to die.
EDIT: Here's a source link: You must be logged in to see this link.
RUNNING TOTAL
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2854 zincs (1982-2007) 75.5%
898 coppers (1959-1982) 23.7%
23 wheats (1920-1958)
6 Canadian (1968-1995)
1 dime (2004)
Wanna take money away from the Fed? Spend dollar coins! |
Edited by - Cerulean on 04/30/2007 08:09:52 |
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n/a
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86 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 10:10:35
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| Since we all know there are people currently hoarding nickels, I really, really wonder what percentage of all nickels have been hoarded so far at this time. Would anyone happen to have any info or statistics on that? |
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horgad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1641 Posts |
Posted - 05/02/2007 : 10:55:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Non-wise man
Since we all know there are people currently hoarding nickels, I really, really wonder what percentage of all nickels have been hoarded so far at this time. Would anyone happen to have any info or statistics on that?
The best indication you can look at is mint production numbers and reports of nickel coin shortages. So far there is no discernable increase in nickel production and no reports of nickel coin shortages. The "good" news is that they are losing a 5 cents each on the 120 million
There are maybe 3.5 billion worth of nickels (or 70 billion nickels) in circulation and they are making 120 million nickels a month on average. So it is going to take some serious hoarding before it makes even a tiny blip on the radar screen.
The "good" news is that they are losing 5 cents each on the 120 million nickels they make every month. The "bad" news is they are using our money from taxes to make the nickels:)
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Edited by - horgad on 05/02/2007 11:02:16 |
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86 Posts |
Posted - 05/03/2007 : 21:39:45
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I just had an interesting thought. How about the "Man fighting himself"?
Sure enough there is a melt ban for 1 & 5 cent pieces but what's to say that the US govt. isn't hoarding the coins and melting them for China's demand, secretly, for a mere profit (I mean you just never know). This melt ban would definitly contradict itself.
If there is really 70 bil nickels = 385000 tons, uncle Sucker can easily melt away 100000 tons to help satify the great demand. This may sound absurbed, but don't underestimate the power and hypocracy of the US government. |
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479 Posts |
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beercritic
Penny Pincher Member
USA
112 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2007 : 09:27:01
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Why would Unca Sam waste all the time to collect and melt coinage, when they would have to turn around and replace it? Far far easier to just run the printing presses a few minutes more to create more "money".
Ni is difficult to separate from Ni-Cu.
IMO, they will not remove 1 & 5 cent coins from circulation. Folks might wake uo as to what happened to the value of their money. Eventually the mint will change the composition of said coins. Until then, grab what you can.
FWIW, Ni & CU coins are overvalued way more than Silver was when IT was removed from coinage.
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479 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2007 : 09:59:55
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I've heard on this board before that it is difficult to separate Ni from Cu as in the case of the CuproNickel coins in circulation in the USA.
This assertion is probably true, but I cannot reason my way to an understanding of why.
I wonder what makes it difficult?
I imagine that if you melt the coins, the heavier of the two metals will sink to the bottom and the lighter will float to the top.
Is there something more to this that I am not aware of?
I wonder if it is difficult to separate nickel out of stainless steel?
I imagine that stainless steel gets recycled.
If anyone has any hard data of this problem, I'm very interested in learning about it.
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Milan Kundera: "The struggle of people against power is the struggle of memory against forgetting."
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Edited by - n/a on 05/04/2007 10:03:42 |
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n/a
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86 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2007 : 10:12:20
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A nickel weighs 5 grams, right? So if there is 70 bil. nickels,= 350 bil. grams. The simple math conversion nearing off to 3 significant figures = 385k tons.
I'm just implying that is can be possible that the govt. may be doing this. Figuring that if it's profitable and the govt. acknowledges that fact of their created melt ban, they may exchange nickels for more dollars to foreign nations. It's all hypothetical, but the possibility is there and one cannot deny the fact that this "might" be happening. Then again, it may not. There's really no proof either way for the public to know unless if there's a secret PI hired from the tax payers to find out and that's not going to happen. Not in the near future anyway. |
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horgad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1641 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2007 : 12:09:01
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"I've heard on this board before that it is difficult to separate Ni from Cu as in the case of the CuproNickel coins in circulation in the USA."
I have actually done some reading on this and I will look for and post some links if I have time. It is relatively easy to separate copper and nickel. You have two and only two metals in the alloy and the metals have very dissimliar properites.
1. Acid method: melt the alloy and bead it into small pieces (you have to do this to make sure the acid gets to all of the copper). Use an acid stregth that dissolves only the copper and leaves the nickel behind. Separate the solution from the nickel. Add something to make the copper come out of the solution. Filter to catch the precipitate, dry, and melt to get the copper. The copper should be nice and pure. The nickel potentially could be very pure (99.5), but it depends on if your alloy was in the proper size spheres and if you let the acid work long enough.
2. Electrolysis: Similar to the above except plate the copper and mabye even the nickel out of solution using DC electric current.
3. Smelting method: I don't think there is much point smelting. But if you are interested, you would melt the alloy and oxidize the copper (turn into a floating slag). What you would be left with would be impure nickel and copper oxide that you have to turn back into copper. Then you would probably want to purify using one of the 2 above...so like I said not much point.
That being said you won't find anybody refing cupro nickel because there is no point in spending money converting a useful alloy into its base metals. Instead the alloy is just reused. (It would take some unusual circomstances such as a large surplus of cupro nickel and a steady or increasing demand for pure copper and/or stainless steel to make somebody even think about refining cupro nickel).
Specifically, in the case of nickels the most likely scenario (easiest path) for recycling would be melting them down and adding pure copper or nickel to form one of the more commonly used cupro nickel blends such as 70/30 or 90/10. The 75/25 mix used in nickels doesn't seem to be used for much besides coins. If you talk to a recycler who deals in cupro nickel, he will be very familiar with the 70/30 and 90/10 blends but may be clueless if you say you have 75/25.
So which one you guys is trying to sell Canadian nickels on this board :)
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Product: Nickel coins
Specifications: 99.9% content
More info: Large quantity of material of coins available. Please emmail me
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Edited by - horgad on 05/04/2007 12:12:28 |
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horgad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1641 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2007 : 12:19:08
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Also if you try to do an internet search to find out the specifics of separating copper from nickel, you will be hard pressed to find much. There are a few things that are basically chemistry experiments, but there is no industrial type methods described that I could find...not because it is hard to do but because nobody is doing it for the reason I described above.
Searches that should work would be along the line of purifying copper or purifying nickel. Then you will get hits on people who are dealing with purify "dirty" alloys and not dealing with nice "clean" cupro nickel alloys, but the process of purify either should be the same or very similar..
Hope that helps. |
Edited by - horgad on 05/04/2007 12:22:53 |
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86 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2007 : 12:22:50
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A nickel weighs 5 grams, right? So if there is 70 bil. nickels,= 350 bil. grams. The simple math conversion nearing off to 3 significant figures = 385k tons.
I'm just implying that is can be possible that the govt. may be doing this. Figuring that if it's profitable and the govt. acknowledges that fact of their created melt ban, they may exchange nickels for more dollars to foreign nations. It's all hypothetical, but the possibility is there and one cannot deny the fact that this "might" be happening. Then again, it may not. There's really no proof either way for the public to know unless if there's a secret PI hired from the tax payers to find out and that's not going to happen. Not in the near future anyway. |
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beercritic
Penny Pincher Member
USA
112 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2007 : 13:37:34
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Thanks hogard ~~ mahaps I misinterpreted "economically unfeasible" to mean "difficult" - - Tho I gotta admit, the methods you mentioned don't seem all that easy to me. Course if I had an industrial lab....
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horgad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1641 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2007 : 15:00:18
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To me the hardest part to separating cupro nickel at home is being able to melt it to get in a more optimal form for refining. But making/buying a home melter that can get hot enough to melt nickel is a little daunting...not impossible just daunting. If you are interested search for cupola furnace or induction melter.
A good overview on how nickel is recycled ( Note that it does not mention purifying or extracting the nickel...just reusing and remixing):
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2007 : 15:48:15
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Just a thought on cupronickel, for use in ships at least:
Perhaps part of the reason there is so little cupronickel recycled is because once a component is made out of CuNi there is little reason to replace it unless it gets damaged. It seems that cupronickel is a bit like the chimney on a house, once it is in place it rarely needs to be replaced and will outlast the other components it is attached to.
Just a hunch. Could be wrong, but just a hunch.
I should have chosen "Cut-n-Paste" as a forum name, since that is what I do, mostly. |
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psi
Penny Collector Member
Canada
399 Posts |
Posted - 05/04/2007 : 22:17:50
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| One thing that just occurred to me: maybe this is obvious to others, but the fact that the mint continues to make coins with melt value greater than their face value doesn't mean they lose as much money per coin as it may look like they do at first glance. It may be kind of misleading to calculate losses based on the mint buying the metal at spot prices, since a large amount of the metal they use may be bought for under spot in the form of pennies and nickels pulled from circulation. I wonder if there's a way to find out how much metal the mint actually buys, or how many of each coin they pull out of circ? |
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beercritic
Penny Pincher Member
USA
112 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2007 : 07:04:22
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Does the mint create the blanks they mint the coins on? I thought they were purchased. I really can't see the mint recycling old coins into new ones, they are trying to increase the amount in circulation, seems like they'd be shooting themselves in the foot.
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psi
Penny Collector Member
Canada
399 Posts |
Posted - 05/05/2007 : 07:29:03
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| Good point about the source of the blanks, but either way the mint is always pulling worn coins so they are getting recycled by somebody. Whether that particular metal gets used in coins again or just sold is something to investigate, but either way they're getting the metal value back and offsetting the metal cost of new blanks. Copper pennies obviously would make economic sense to recycle regardless of the level of wear, and every other current coin is made with at least 75% copper. |
Edited by - psi on 05/05/2007 07:34:26 |
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