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n/a
deleted
59 Posts |
 Posted - 04/16/2007 : 22:59:34
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I started to investigate small-scale, home melting of metals this weekend. Here is some of the info I found.
This appears to be the resource for amateur metallurgists:
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Some more useful info:
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And never put metal in the microwave. Unless you're trying to melt it!
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While the melt ban has been extended indefinitely, the following language is quite clear:
"Two commenters voiced concern that the Federal Government could
arrest or fine a science teacher for experimenting with a one-cent coin during a classroom demonstration, or could arrest or fine a child for using a penny pressing machine at an amusement park. However, the regulation includes an exception for the treatment of 5-cent and one-cent coins for educational, amusement, novelty, jewelry, and similar purposes as long as the volumes treated and the nature of the treatment make it clear that such treatment is not intended as a means by which to profit solely from the value of the metal content of the coins."
So:
Melting pennies by the ton and selling them as scrap metal: way illegal.
Melting pennies by the ton and making metal arts and crafts to be sold for a profit: maybe legal?
Melting a handful of pennies in a flower pot in your yard and pouring them into a muffin pan to make a brass paperweight: educational, amusing, and definitely legal. And I'm going to try it!
It'll probably be June before I get around to it, but I will certainly update as the project progresses. It looks like small amounts of bronze or brass can be melted with pretty crude methods. And you could make any brass alloy you like by just combining the right proportions of copper and zinc pennies. Tin solder is readily available for making bronze. Looks like my family are all getting bronze muffins for Christmas. 
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One of the chief attractions of the life of the wilderness is its rugged and stalwart democracy;
there every man stands for what he actually is, and can show himself to be.
-- Theodore Roosevelt
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Canadian_Nickle
Penny Hoarding Member
Canada
938 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 00:49:39
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Amusement can be defined pretty broadly, I imagine.
Also, the language "to profit solely from the value of the metal content of the coins" is wide open to abuse. For example, if you melt the coins into bars AND stamp the bars with your mark of thier purity, and then sell them., you can claim you are making only face value on the coins contained in the bar, and any profit on your assay of the metal. That is to say, you are getting paid for the sorting and the melting, NOT profiting solely from the value of the metal content of the coins.
________________________
"A nickel's nothing to scoff at."
C. Montgomery Burns
HoardCode0.1: M28/5CAON:CA5Ni35000:CA1Cu1200:CA100Ag345:
CA10Ag250:CA50Ag100:CA25Ag30:CA500Ag48:US100Ag20:CA1000Ag16
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 02:52:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wes
So:
Melting pennies by the ton and selling them as scrap metal: way illegal.
Damn, that lets me out! OK, I guess it would be "amusing" to melt a small amount. I think the melting point is very high though. It will probably cost a fortune in energy to get things hot enough.
Will you be offering your muffins the Buy/Sell/Trade section?
"Preserving coinage.. 2 tons at a time"
HoardCode0.1:M48/14USCA:US1Cu639700:US5Ni2400:CA5Ni46 |
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n/a
deleted
59 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 07:46:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Canadian_Nickle
Also, the language "to profit solely from the value of the metal content of the coins" is wide open to abuse.
I agree. So to make sure I am in the clear, I'll only be handling small volumes, and will make sure I don't profit at all. 
quote:
Originally posted by HoardCopperByTheTon
I think the melting point is very high though. It will probably cost a fortune in energy to get things hot enough.
Will you be offering your muffins the Buy/Sell/Trade section?
Interesting thread about penny melting:
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So there seems to be some debate as to whether this is achievable with extra zinc or tin to start the melt. For 95% Cu pennies alone, it probably won't be hot enough. If I can get it to work, and people are interested in such a novelty item, perhaps I can make them available. At a loss, of course, given my "no profit" provision. 
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One of the chief attractions of the life of the wilderness is its rugged and stalwart democracy;
there every man stands for what he actually is, and can show himself to be.
-- Theodore Roosevelt |
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Canadian_Nickle
Penny Hoarding Member
Canada
938 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 16:44:25
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Here's another way around the melt ban - you melt the coins, and then sell them at face cost to a numbered corporation, the corporation then sells the bars. You don't profit, and the corporation isn't doing any melting - it bought the bars at a discount, and sells them on for legal profit at spot.
________________________
"A nickel's nothing to scoff at."
C. Montgomery Burns
HoardCode0.1: M28/5CAON:CA5Ni35000:CA1Cu1200:CA100Ag345:
CA10Ag250:CA50Ag100:CA25Ag30:CA500Ag48:US100Ag20:CA1000Ag16
How to read a HoardCode:
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Ridewithme38
Penny Sorter Member
USA
79 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 16:51:30
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interesting idea huh? Selling a friend melted coins at face value then he sells the bars for a profit...maybe if you have a nice enough friend he'll buy you lunch with the profit he makes =)
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RUNNING TOTAL: APROXIMATELY..
6002 Copper
158 wheat
63 canadian
1 Guatemala coin?(1979)and a 250gram .999 pure copper bar(Jetco USA) |
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psi
Penny Collector Member
Canada
399 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 18:23:59
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| That metal casting forum is cool. I'm not sure the loophole in the law mentioned guarantees immunity from prosecution though, probably still best to be careful. |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 18:25:15
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Suppose you take a pound of pennies and melt them down and make a belt buckle out of them and sell said belt buckle as a "work of art" for $10. The pennies were only a trial run (so you claim) to see if bronze is the medium you choose to work in.
Since the melting was done for the sake of art, this would be exempt from the ban.
I suppose one could also take up the art of jewelry making, using bronze as the medium of choice until the ametuer jeweler was sufficiently proficient metal working before moving on to more valuable metals. Copper bracelets were popular some years back, I seem to recall.
I should have chosen "Cut-n-Paste" as a forum name, since that is what I do, mostly. |
Edited by - pencilvanian on 04/17/2007 18:29:27 |
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Ridewithme38
Penny Sorter Member
USA
79 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 18:34:19
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You know what i got from this...as long as your not selling it as Copper Bullion your pretty much safe....for example you melt 10 pounds of copper cents into a bar and market it as a DoorStop or a paperweight...maybe carve a small picture in the top...and your safe... There are a ton of things that you can sell that look alot like a bullion bar without actually being sold as a bullion bar
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RUNNING TOTAL: APROXIMATELY..
6002 Copper
158 wheat
63 canadian
1 Guatemala coin?(1979)and a 250gram .999 pure copper bar(Jetco USA) |
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Canadian_Nickle
Penny Hoarding Member
Canada
938 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 20:03:45
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"interesting idea huh? Selling a friend melted coins at face value then he sells the bars for a profit...maybe if you have a nice enough friend he'll buy you lunch with the profit he makes =)"
That's why you just set up a numbered corporation - it's like a friend (legally, a seperate person) who always does exactly what you tell him to do.
________________________
"A nickel's nothing to scoff at."
C. Montgomery Burns
HoardCode0.1: M28/5CAON:CA5Ni35000:CA1Cu1200:CA100Ag345:
CA10Ag250:CA50Ag100:CA25Ag30:CA500Ag48:US100Ag20:CA1000Ag16
How to read a HoardCode:
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 20:04:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Ridewithme38
You know what i got from this...as long as your not selling it as Copper Bullion your pretty much safe....for example you melt 10 pounds of copper cents into a bar and market it as a DoorStop or a paperweight...maybe carve a small picture in the top...and your safe... There are a ton of things that you can sell that look alot like a bullion bar without actually being sold as a bullion bar
Interesting thought on the subject. What's art and what's bullion?
.........................
RUNNING TOTAL: APROXIMATELY..
6002 Copper
158 wheat
63 canadian
1 Guatemala coin?(1979)and a 250gram .999 pure copper bar(Jetco USA)
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For good times to come or bad times to come, now is the time to save your copper or nickel coins. |
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Canadian_Nickle
Penny Hoarding Member
Canada
938 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 20:14:40
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Setting up a corporation for you hoarding is a good idea also.
1) you can get business accounts with no coin limits at most banks.
2) you can apply for corporate credit (deosn't affect your own credit) to buy supplies (Ryedale, wrapper) and coins
3) because of the unique nature of the product as both legal tender and valuable metal, you can pull profits from the corporation without actually showing a profit, and thus avoid taxes.
Say you get a $10,000 corporate line of credit with a 1-month, zero interest option (like a credit card). You take that out in pennies, and then sort it (say 20% copper) and end up with a corporation that has $8000 in zincers and $2000 in coppers.
You write a personal cheque to the corp for $2000, and the coppers become your personal property - this is totally legit, as the corp, and the IRS/SEC, regard coppers and zincs as the same thing - 1 cent coins. Then, the corp has a $2000 cheque and $8000 in pennies, and you pay off the line of credit before the end of the month from that. Do that a few times, and your corporate credit will get upped, to maybe $50,000 or $100,000 as you sh0ow large balances & speedy payback.
________________________
"A nickel's nothing to scoff at."
C. Montgomery Burns
HoardCode0.1: M28/5CAON:CA5Ni35000:CA1Cu1200:CA100Ag345:
CA10Ag250:CA50Ag100:CA25Ag30:CA500Ag48:US100Ag20:CA1000Ag16
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Canadian_Nickle
Penny Hoarding Member
Canada
938 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 20:16:06
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"What's art and what's bullion?"
Yeah - I see lots of eBay auctions for 1oz silver art bars.
________________________
"A nickel's nothing to scoff at."
C. Montgomery Burns
HoardCode0.1: M28/5CAON:CA5Ni35000:CA1Cu1200:CA100Ag345:
CA10Ag250:CA50Ag100:CA25Ag30:CA500Ag48:US100Ag20:CA1000Ag16
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n/a
deleted
59 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2007 : 20:55:10
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The wording is a little vague, but I think melting coins into bars and selling them for a profit as "art" will get you a hearty laugh from the judge and a $10,000 fine. I'm not looking for a loophole. I'm not making art, I'm not selling anything, and I'm not starting a corporation. I'm really just interested in trying this because it sounds fun and I'll learn things. I think of this as the ultimate skill for when TSHTF. You can't survive in the bronze age if you can't make bronze...
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One of the chief attractions of the life of the wilderness is its rugged and stalwart democracy;
there every man stands for what he actually is, and can show himself to be.
-- Theodore Roosevelt |
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Canadian_Nickle
Penny Hoarding Member
Canada
938 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2007 : 00:02:45
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I agree. when I buy a house, it will have space for a forge.
________________________
"A nickel's nothing to scoff at."
C. Montgomery Burns
HoardCode0.1: M28/5CAON:CA5Ni35000:CA1Cu1200:CA100Ag345:
CA10Ag250:CA50Ag100:CA25Ag30:CA500Ag48:US100Ag20:CA1000Ag16
How to read a HoardCode:
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Melting!
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