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Market Harmony
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1274 Posts |
 Posted - 02/17/2009 : 10:40:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Kurr
I wanted to get into this so I am really watching hard, but I have a technical question. Your products look great, and I love the pyramid ingots, those are sweet. On the copper, do you have any issues with oxidation? I have heard it can be a beast to work with, due to oxidation and rapid heat loss on pouring.
I like your stamps.
quote:
Originally posted by TenBears
The pyramid ingots are interesting.
I really love hearing these kinds of comments! Thank you!
Regarding the oxidation question: I think you are referring oxygen pick-up by molten copper. As you know molten copper has a huge appetite for oxygen. There are some tricks to avoid or treat this. A vacuum degassing furnace is available to treat it, but there is a trick to reducing oxygen pick up... just use a substance that likes oxygen more than copper and keep as much air as possible from entering the furnace. A carbon cap (graphite) works well to protect the molten copper.
There is a certain casting temperature that we found which works best for our products. And yes, it has been a "beast" to learn by trial and error! Luckily, I have some background in steel making. |
goto the new and improved realcent: http://realcent.org |
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84 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2009 : 20:34:41
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| I can certainly appreciate the costs involved with running your business and producing the bullion, but I look at it like this, silver is running approximately +15% and gold is running about +10%. copper bullion is running about +1200% Why would anyone invest in copper bullion when it is so SO much easier, safer, and cheaper compared to spot to just sort pennies? |
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Market Harmony
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1274 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2009 : 13:44:56
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quote:
Originally posted by CopperSnake
I can certainly appreciate the costs involved with running your business and producing the bullion, but I look at it like this, silver is running approximately +15% and gold is running about +10%. copper bullion is running about +1200% Why would anyone invest in copper bullion when it is so SO much easier, safer, and cheaper compared to spot to just sort pennies?
Essentially all pennys are the same. However, there may be some difference in wear or toning/patina with different copper pennies which some people could find more attractive than others. Copper for copper's sake type of investing only has two choices as I stated: copper cents, and copper scrap.
If you want a unique, hand crafted piece of 999 copper, that is not mass produced, then come see me. Every investor and collector has different tastes and desires that influence their buying decisions.
Premiums on gold and silver can be much higher than 1200% of metal content. A 1938 D Walking Liberty in a low grade can fetch $120 each, and higher grades about $350. That's 2400% to 7000% above metal content value. Even wheat cents are 500%.
If your personal taste is for bullion only, then perhaps you are not comparing apples to apples when you make your statements. I have absolutley no problem with bulk copper cent collectors. In fact, I'm hoarding some myself.
My opinion is bias, but I think our produced pieces are some of the most attractive bullion available. And many of the products can only be made by us. Considering the attractiveness, uniqueness, and rarity; the premiums we charge are quite reasonable.
Kind Regards,
Michael |
goto the new and improved realcent: http://realcent.org |
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sumrtym
Penny Sorter Member
36 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2009 : 20:45:27
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| You could buy bar stock of copper all day long and cut it and have "copper bars" at a not excessive premium. To say you only have two choices is flawed. |
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84 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2009 : 10:02:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Market Harmony
quote:
Originally posted by CopperSnake
I can certainly appreciate the costs involved with running your business and producing the bullion, but I look at it like this, silver is running approximately +15% and gold is running about +10%. copper bullion is running about +1200% Why would anyone invest in copper bullion when it is so SO much easier, safer, and cheaper compared to spot to just sort pennies?
Essentially all pennys are the same. However, there may be some difference in wear or toning/patina with different copper pennies which some people could find more attractive than others. Copper for copper's sake type of investing only has two choices as I stated: copper cents, and copper scrap.
If you want a unique, hand crafted piece of 999 copper, that is not mass produced, then come see me. Every investor and collector has different tastes and desires that influence their buying decisions.
Premiums on gold and silver can be much higher than 1200% of metal content. A 1938 D Walking Liberty in a low grade can fetch $120 each, and higher grades about $350. That's 2400% to 7000% above metal content value. Even wheat cents are 500%.
If your personal taste is for bullion only, then perhaps you are not comparing apples to apples when you make your statements. I have absolutley no problem with bulk copper cent collectors. In fact, I'm hoarding some myself.
My opinion is bias, but I think our produced pieces are some of the most attractive bullion available. And many of the products can only be made by us. Considering the attractiveness, uniqueness, and rarity; the premiums we charge are quite reasonable.
Kind Regards,
Michael
ohh come on now, you can't compare the premium on high valued numismatics to bullion.
Ok, here's one question that could clear the whole issue up. What's your current buyback price for 1 pound of copper bullion?
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fasTTcar
Penny Hoarding Member
Canada
573 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2009 : 13:39:32
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Guys, quit giving him a hard time.
He is making a nice product and offering it at a price. To0 much for you? Don't buy it.
The copper bullion business is small, and he is a valid choice that has been good enough to post here.
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www.londongoldbuyer.com |
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NotABigDeal
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
3890 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2009 : 17:21:10
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quote:
Originally posted by fasTTcar
Guys, quit giving him a hard time.
He is making a nice product and offering it at a price. To0 much for you? Don't buy it.
The copper bullion business is small, and he is a valid choice that has been good enough to post here.
Agree 100%.
Deal |
Live free or die.
Plain and simple.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your council or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
- Samuel Adams |
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TenBears
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1021 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2009 : 17:29:54
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quote:
Originally posted by fasTTcar
Guys, quit giving him a hard time.
He is making a nice product and offering it at a price. To0 much for you? Don't buy it.
The copper bullion business is small, and he is a valid choice that has been good enough to post here.
Word. And, I still like the pyramids. |
"Rich," the Old Man said dreamily, "is not baying after what you can't have. Rich is having the time to do what you want to do. Rich is a little whiskey to drink and some food to eat and a roof over your head and a fish pole and a boat and a gun and a dollar for a box of shells. Rich is not owing any money to anybody, and not spending what you haven't got." Robert Ruark
there are too wild Indians...
there are too wild Indians...
there are too wild Indians...-----still taunted
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n/a
deleted
84 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2009 : 21:02:27
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quote:
Originally posted by fasTTcar
Guys, quit giving him a hard time.
He is making a nice product and offering it at a price. To0 much for you? Don't buy it.
The copper bullion business is small, and he is a valid choice that has been good enough to post here.
I didn't realize asking a few valid questions was giving someone a hard time. You clearly do not own a business nor will you probably ever.
If I were to attempt to mark up an item to that degree it would never sell and I would be laughed out of business. I'm not saying he is ripping people off maybe the copper bullion business absolutely demands markups of 1200%. All I would like to know is if the buyback price is in the realm of the sell price or not, otherwise if the buyback price is near spot, then copper would have to appreciate an amount it likely never will in our lifetime and probably one or two more just to break even. |
I currently have no signature. |
Edited by - n/a on 02/19/2009 21:04:11 |
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natsb88
Administrator
USA
1850 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2009 : 21:32:29
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quote:
Originally posted by CopperSnake
I didn't realize asking a few valid questions was giving someone a hard time. You clearly do not own a business nor will you probably ever.
Actually, fasTTcar does own a business. A pretty large one if I recall.
quote:
Originally posted by CopperSnake
If I were to attempt to mark up an item to that degree it would never sell and I would be laughed out of business. I'm not saying he is ripping people off maybe the copper bullion business absolutely demands markups of 1200%. All I would like to know is if the buyback price is in the realm of the sell price or not, otherwise if the buyback price is near spot, then copper would have to appreciate an amount it likely never will in our lifetime and probably one or two more just to break even.
Mike is not marking his products up 1200%. Mark-up means over cost. The cost of making an ingot is much more than just the spot price of copper. Claiming his mark-up is 1200% is sort of like claiming the mark-up on a $20,000 car made from 3000 pounds of steel is 6500%.
If you can produce and sell an ingot like Market Harmony's for anywhere close to the spot price of copper, I would love to know how. Heck, if you can buy pure copper in bar form for anywhere close to spot without signing a 5-year contract for 1000 metric tons a month, I'd love to know how.
If your exit strategy for your copper investments is to take them to the scrap yard, then this is not the product for you. But I'd say there's a pretty good chance your exit strategy for silver and gold is not to sell it to a refiner, so why do that with copper?
This is the beauty of a free market. Market Harmony can have a clientele and be successful, and nobody is forcing you to buy anything  |
Nate
The Copper Cave
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84 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2009 : 21:39:18
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ok you;re right I had the semantics wrong, I should have said it is selling for about 1200% over spot, not at 1200% markup. I have no idea what it costs him to produce it, obviously it's above the price of spot and yes every business deserves a profit. The point however is that this is supposed to be an investment, no precious metal in bullion form seems to command price levels anywhere as high over spot as copper bullion. So if you sellers expect us to buy these items as an investment these are legit questions that we should not have to fight with anyone to get an answer to. What is the buyback price, if there even is a buyback?
and I apologize if Ive sounded rude in my questions, I generally type extremely fast b/c I monitor 8-10 message boards a day, I just felt as I skimmed the response earlier that the comment about the 1938 D Walking Liberty was pretty insulting to anyone's intelligence |
I currently have no signature. |
Edited by - n/a on 02/19/2009 21:57:40 |
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natsb88
Administrator
USA
1850 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2009 : 22:01:12
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quote:
Originally posted by CopperSnake
ok you;re right I had the semantics wrong, I should have said it is selling for about 1200% over spot, not at 1200% markup. I have no idea what it costs him to produce it, obviously it's above the price of spot and yes every business deserves a profit. The point however is that this is supposed to be an investment, no precious metal in bullion form seems to command price levels anywhere as high over spot as copper bullion. So if you sellers expect us to buy these items as an investment these are legit questions that we should not have to fight with anyone to get an answer to. What is the buyback price, if there even is a buyback?
Buyback would depend on a lot of things. The specific items, their condition, and so on. So far none of my customers have inquired about selling products back to me (or even returning them for that matter).
I can't speak for Market Harmony itself, but for the Market Harmony products I carry, I would probably pay 70%-75% of the retail price at the time, assuming the products are in the original packaging with the serial number and in good condition. It would be higher if the product is particularly high in demand at the time, and of course the retail price fluctuates as spot price changes. |
Nate
The Copper Cave
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Edited by - natsb88 on 02/19/2009 22:03:53 |
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Bootstrap
Penny Collector Member
USA
279 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2009 : 22:17:54
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Hello,
I just received two 10oz + Market Harmony bars from the Copper Cave. I love the look of the hand poured bar and to be honest I purchased these items more as a novelty rather than an investment in copper. I think I will get a few more to make a pyramid display on my desk.
I do have some comments on the bars. I was kind of disappointed to see that the bar's serial number is only attached to the bag the bar comes in. I and I think other consumers would prefer to have the serial number stamped on the bar as I currently view copper bullion item to be displayed rather than sitting in a safe. So, if I choose to display my bars now I will have to separate the bar from it's serial number which defeats the purpose of having one. Otherwise, the bars look great as they have the rustic look I have been looking for. Thanks!
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fasTTcar
Penny Hoarding Member
Canada
573 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2009 : 22:18:10
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I think it is fair to say that MH is not currently aiming at the pure investment market with his copper offerings.
Very similar to how a local dealer here sells silver maples for a 40% premium (!), 10 oz. bars for 10% over, junk silver at 5% over all the way down to sterling scrap at spot. They are all silver, some are just nicer than others.
quote:
Originally posted by CopperSnake
You clearly do not own a business nor will you probably ever.
And, for the record, I own 2 incorporated companies and have a 25% stake in a third one.
I feed more families than just my own. |
www.londongoldbuyer.com |
Edited by - fasTTcar on 02/19/2009 22:25:20 |
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n/a
deleted
84 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2009 : 22:25:15
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quote:
Originally posted by fasTTcar
I think it is fair to say that MH is not currently aiming at the pure investment market with his copper offerings.
Very similar to how a local dealer here sells silver maples for a 40% premium (!), 10 oz. bars for 10% over, junk silver at 5% over all the way down to sterling scrap at spot. They are all silver, some are just nicer than others.
And, for the record, I own 2 incorporated companies and have a 25% stake in a third one.
I feed more families than just my own.
yes I have no doubt I was hasty in my judgment and reply but I was just trying to ask a legit question, one that no business owner would fear answering. The more it wasn't answered up until Nats reply the shadier it seemed. As long as the dealers/manufacturers are willing to buyback then it seems legit as an investment. notwithstanding I am also certain many people just buy them because they are quite nice pieces |
I currently have no signature. |
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fasTTcar
Penny Hoarding Member
Canada
573 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2009 : 22:28:04
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No harm, no foul.
While I probably would not be a buyer of the copper bullion personally, I am still interested in trying to talk MH into processing some 80% into bullion for me. |
www.londongoldbuyer.com |
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2009 : 22:33:51
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*Checking Buyback price on copper cents* Yep, still at least a penny! Will have to check with the mint later to see what their buyback price is on all those commemorative coins they have been selling.
What is the markup on those 2009 Lincoln Log Cabin cents right now? And those aren't even copper! They are made of zinc! Should we calculate the markup based on the metal value of the zinc in those pennies? Sure, there are costs of production, marketing and shipping, but somebody else should eat those. Later on when the mint sells special collector editions of those Lincoln cents what will the markup over the value of the copper in the cent be?
Market price in a free market is determined by supply and demand. If a manufacturer can make something that folks are willing to buy at a significant premium, what is wrong with that? If those premiums appear to be too high and it sells, then it will invite competition.. that is the American way. If it doesn't sell at all, there might be a price adjustment, in much the same way as we have seen bags of copper cents priced lower on the open market.
I like those pyramids too, and am considering adding some to my hoard. |
If your percentages are low.. just sort more. If your percentages are high.. just sort more.
Now selling Copper pennies. 1.6x plus shipping. Limited amounts available. |
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sumrtym
Penny Sorter Member
36 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2009 : 23:31:27
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For my part, all I chimed in about was the fact it was being stated that, aside from pennies or scrap, this was about the only way to have copper for investment purposes. Now, if you want to view the offerings by Market Harmony as a fun item and not a strictly bullion investment item, then I'm happy to say that's true. However, I didn't read the response that way at all, instead as saying those bars are the only other way than the previous two mentioned to invest in copper.
Per example, then
You must be logged in to see this link.
You could buy this c11000 copper bar with free shipping measuring 2"x2"x96". C11000 contains 99.95% Cu, 0.03% O2, and less than 50 ppm metallic impurities. The bar would weigh 124 lbs (using the density of C11000 per cubic inch to compute). Based on the price on their site at the time of this post, the fact shipping is free, and the current price of copper, that's roughly a 500% premium to the copper price. That's right off the very first thing I found in less than 5 minutes looking.
Now, I haven't looked over the site (again, under 5 minutes total time including doing the figures / finding purity / etc.) or checked competitors, so it's possible someone else is a) cheaper, or b) other sizes on that same site might actually work out to a cheaper premium.
Again, I just took issue with that stipulation that if you want copper bullion, you had some pretty limited options presented including having a pretty copper bar. As I said before, you could cut these into smaller bars all day long and even stamp them if you wanted. |
Edited by - sumrtym on 02/19/2009 23:35:43 |
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Market Harmony
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1274 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2009 : 23:42:59
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Wow... flaming folder!
This is getting a lot of attention, so let me put on a tie and give you the official answers:
We refund 100% of retail price for any items that were not described as received.
There has never been an inquiry yet, but copper buyback rates are only applicable to Market Harmony products in original condition and carry the serial number or proof of original purchase from Market Harmony LLC. Buyback rates vary per product and are adjusted by inventory and current retail prices. A restocking fee for each item also applies. Each request is determined at the time of inquiry due to these fluctuations, and therefore it is impossible to give exact figures without a request. It is stated on the website, "If you feel your metal position is extreme, we can also help to relieve you of this." Silver and gold are treated differently.
Regarding the serial numbers stamped on each bar/ingot: I'm always trying to make the company better, and always trying to improve the final product. Feedback like this helps me to guide the directions that we should take. The website, as mentioned previously in this thread, needs work; and that will happen. And stamping the serial numbers directly on the products will be have to be considered for future production. I may even consider making it possible to send in old products to have serial numbers stamped onto them at some point in the future. I'll have to speak with my stamp supplier to see what the possibilities are.
And regarding the "shadyness" Well, I'm not sure if that should even be answered- as just doing that may be shady in itself! But I will say this: Investments in any commodity for the commodities sake, whether it is oil, steel, gold, copper, or rice means that you don't care what it looks like or where it came from, just that it meets the specs. However, investments in collectibles have have an added value of visual/spiritual/commemorable/historical appeal that is determined on an individual basis. Is the Mona Lisa only worth the paint. Is a brass cannon pulled from a shipwreck only worth the metal? Sure, Market Harmony supplies bars and ingots of metals. And I'm not trying to compare my works with De Vinci, but each piece does take on it's own personality, delivered by its maker, as is passes from one stage to the next. Some appreciate that more than others, and some just like the looks of it. The best part is that even if nobody else cares, it is at least worth the metal of which it's made.
Read my signature for the best investment that anyone can ever make. |
goto the new and improved realcent: http://realcent.org |
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WheatieFan
Penny Pincher Member
USA
106 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2009 : 23:56:00
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14K Gold bullion?
How exactly are you making that?
Do you take 24K gold and add copper to it to bring it down to 14K?
Do you melt down 14K jewelry?
Or something else I can't think of?
just wondering,
wheatiefan
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Computer Jones
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1112 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2009 : 00:12:23
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These prices are nutz!
Now I'm starting to feel the itch to offer hand stamped 95% Cu pyrimids, oz. to lb.
It's not all that hard to put a blower on a wood fire and pour some pointy dome sand castings.
I'd even consider selling them for a mere 1000% over spot, of course the other 5% would be Ag. Heveven forfend I'd consider Zn as the alloying element (that would prbably only sell for 900% over spot)!
If anybody wants buss bars, I'd be happy to sell at 800% over spot, 950% over if you want me to wipe them down with Brasso and stamp a date on them (no charge for the machine screw threaded holes).
How about an offer for 10 guage grounding wire, 100% Cu for only 750% over spot?
Want to talk about bulk grounding clamps?
For these prices how about stripped and cleaned 12 guage house wiring, I'll mash it into a nice shape of your choice? Just think how lovely a nicly mashed up 12 guage rhomboid would look on your desk! (It's easier to make than a 90 degree cube if you don't have a mold to smash in into.) |
There's profit if you melt things!!
8{> |
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natsb88
Administrator
USA
1850 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2009 : 07:11:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Bootstrap
Hello,
I just received two 10oz + Market Harmony bars from the Copper Cave. I love the look of the hand poured bar and to be honest I purchased these items more as a novelty rather than an investment in copper. I think I will get a few more to make a pyramid display on my desk.
I do have some comments on the bars. I was kind of disappointed to see that the bar's serial number is only attached to the bag the bar comes in. I and I think other consumers would prefer to have the serial number stamped on the bar as I currently view copper bullion item to be displayed rather than sitting in a safe. So, if I choose to display my bars now I will have to separate the bar from it's serial number which defeats the purpose of having one. Otherwise, the bars look great as they have the rustic look I have been looking for. Thanks!
Bootstrap,
Glad you like the bars! I agree that it would be nice to have the serial number stamped on the bar, but I also know that means added labor cost. Mike has been pretty good at working suggestions into his products, so we'll see what he comes up with.
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Nate
The Copper Cave
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natsb88
Administrator
USA
1850 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2009 : 07:18:39
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quote:
Originally posted by sumrtym
For my part, all I chimed in about was the fact it was being stated that, aside from pennies or scrap, this was about the only way to have copper for investment purposes. Now, if you want to view the offerings by Market Harmony as a fun item and not a strictly bullion investment item, then I'm happy to say that's true. However, I didn't read the response that way at all, instead as saying those bars are the only other way than the previous two mentioned to invest in copper.
Per example, then
You must be logged in to see this link.
You could buy this c11000 copper bar with free shipping measuring 2"x2"x96". C11000 contains 99.95% Cu, 0.03% O2, and less than 50 ppm metallic impurities. The bar would weigh 124 lbs (using the density of C11000 per cubic inch to compute). Based on the price on their site at the time of this post, the fact shipping is free, and the current price of copper, that's roughly a 500% premium to the copper price. That's right off the very first thing I found in less than 5 minutes looking.
Now, I haven't looked over the site (again, under 5 minutes total time including doing the figures / finding purity / etc.) or checked competitors, so it's possible someone else is a) cheaper, or b) other sizes on that same site might actually work out to a cheaper premium.
Again, I just took issue with that stipulation that if you want copper bullion, you had some pretty limited options presented including having a pretty copper bar. As I said before, you could cut these into smaller bars all day long and even stamp them if you wanted.
Storm has the best advertised online price that I'm aware of, and it's a valid way to collect copper if you're just looking to accumulate metal and you're not worried about recognition. The problem with the pricing is that most people will not want to drop $900 - $1000 into a single piece of copper all in one shot. When you get down to smaller pieces (price range ~$100) the cost is back up to $9 - $10 a pound for unmarked copper. |
Nate
The Copper Cave
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natsb88
Administrator
USA
1850 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2009 : 07:34:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Computer Jones
These prices are nutz!
Now I'm starting to feel the itch to offer hand stamped 95% Cu pyrimids, oz. to lb.
It's not all that hard to put a blower on a wood fire and pour some pointy dome sand castings.
I'd even consider selling them for a mere 1000% over spot, of course the other 5% would be Ag. Heveven forfend I'd consider Zn as the alloying element (that would prbably only sell for 900% over spot)!
If anybody wants buss bars, I'd be happy to sell at 800% over spot, 950% over if you want me to wipe them down with Brasso and stamp a date on them (no charge for the machine screw threaded holes).
How about an offer for 10 guage grounding wire, 100% Cu for only 750% over spot?
Want to talk about bulk grounding clamps?
For these prices how about stripped and cleaned 12 guage house wiring, I'll mash it into a nice shape of your choice? Just think how lovely a nicly mashed up 12 guage rhomboid would look on your desk! (It's easier to make than a 90 degree cube if you don't have a mold to smash in into.)
If you'd like to go ahead and buy or build a furnace, set up a safe place to work, source raw material (a 5% zinc alloy would sound awfully suspicious), buy or build a mold, take the time to experiment and find the best pouring temperature and technique, pour the bars, clean them, stamp them, develop packaging, and ship them so that you meet the same quality as the Market Harmony bars for a significantly lower price, count me in as a buyer.
Don't forget you have to go through the process of establishing a legitimate business. You'll need a mailing address (which you probably don't want to be your house), maybe a business checking account (be prepared for fees at many places), a sales tax license depending on your state, an accounting system/software, mailing supplies, probably some advertising and a maybe website. Then you'll spend time answering questions from potential customers, establishing relationships with direct customers and retailers, receiving feedback and making adjustments.
Then you get to file sales tax reports (probably quarterly) You'll need to fill out schedule C's for the state and the fed, and every cent you earn from your business is taxed. Or you could incorporate or become an S-Corp or LLC. Taxing is a little different but there's more paperwork.
I'm just busting your chops, but seriously I think people vastly underestimate what it takes to run a business. There's a reason over half of all new businesses fail within the first five years. |
Nate
The Copper Cave
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Edited by - natsb88 on 02/20/2009 07:35:46 |
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n/a
deleted
84 Posts |
Posted - 02/20/2009 : 10:55:36
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quote:
Originally posted by natsb88
I'm just busting your chops, but seriously I think people vastly underestimate what it takes to run a business. There's a reason over half of all new businesses fail within the first five years.
in business 9 years strong here, average gross profit before all expenses is less than 30% |
I currently have no signature. |
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small scale bullion producer questions
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