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Nickelless
Administrator
USA
5580 Posts |
 Posted - 12/07/2008 : 08:53:45
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Let's start off with plants that need the longest initial growing time but which will last for decades: fruit and nut trees. Semi-dwarf trees are your best option for fruit yields within a relatively short period of time (say, 4 years). If you don't own any land, you can always plant seedlings on public land, near streams or rivers, etc., and harvest the fruit as conditions allow. This week I talked to a woman named Patti at Nature Hills Nursery in Omaha (phone 402-934-8116) about semi-dwarf apple seedlings they're taking orders for right now--about $25 per tree, a really cheap long-term investment that will keep on growing. Drop a few hundred bucks for a dozen trees and you'll be set for a long time. As far as nut trees go, I'm not sure yet where to find any semi-dwarfs, but I'm looking. Walnut trees would probably be a good type to consider.
Also...I am seriously considering planting trees along the banks of the Ohio River near where I live since there's a ton of space to do so, but I wasn't sure if the trees would absorb any pollutants in the river that would leach into the fruit. Anyone know of any studies on something like this? I'm looking to plant on the north bank of the river, and immediately north of where I'm looking to plant, there's nothing but farmland. Should I try to plant farther away from the river yet around the same tracts of farmland?
EDIT: Plug these coordinates into Google Earth and zoom in close enough to see the groves of trees along the river, as well as farmland to the north: 37 46'38.48"N, 87 06'43.64"W
As you can see, the south side of the river is the city, although I guess I could also plant on the south side as well--it's just that the north bank would be less populated.
Also...among the seeds I've got in Mason jars at the moment:
carrots
parsnips
spinach
blackberries
mustard greens
cayenne peppers
jalapenos
tobacco--like I said, grow your own!
dandelions (grabbed several large handfuls last summer--dandelion greens are very nutritious)
tomatoes
I put tomatoes last on the list, but I've got more tomato seeds than anything else (maybe 15,000 seeds of different varieties--roma is my favorite) because what I'd like to do eventually--and I think this will be a big business opportunity as more people turn to growing their own food--is creating tomato seedlings and selling young, already-growing plants to people. Not everyone necessarily lives in an area where greenhouses would be selling fruit or vegetable seedlings, but the bad thing about a lot of commercial greenhouses, IMO, is that too many of them sell primarily flowers or decorative plants, and Ficus Benjamina tastes terrible.
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Edited by - Nickelless on 12/07/2008 09:59:52 |
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fb101
Administrator
USA
2856 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2008 : 12:50:31
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| Hard shell squashes,(IE butternut, spaghetti) are supposed to be able to last up to 6 months if kept in a cool dark dry place - like on the cellar steps. |
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2008 : 12:56:08
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| My main concern of planting near a river would be flooding rather than pollution. My brothers and I once lost a whole crop when we planted near a creekbed. It was the perfect place until the remains of a hurricane came through. But that's another story................ |
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Think positive. |
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Nickelless
Administrator
USA
5580 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2008 : 13:20:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Ardent Listener
My main concern of planting near a river would be flooding rather than pollution. My brothers and I once lost a whole crop when we planted near a creekbed. It was the perfect place until the remains of a hurricane came through. But that's another story................
Well, something like corn would be one thing, but I'd think trees would be a different story, wouldn't they? It would seem to make sense since there are usually so many trees thriving beside rivers.
Any arborists among us?? |
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fb101
Administrator
USA
2856 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2008 : 13:48:14
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| I had a grape arbor once. Does that qualify? |
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Delawhere Jack
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1680 Posts |
Posted - 12/07/2008 : 14:30:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Nickelless
Also...I am seriously considering planting trees along the banks of the Ohio River near where I live since there's a ton of space to do so, but I wasn't sure if the trees would absorb any pollutants in the river that would leach into the fruit. Anyone know of any studies on something like this? I'm looking to plant on the north bank of the river, and immediately north of where I'm looking to plant, there's nothing but farmland. Should I try to plant farther away from the river yet around the same tracts of farmland?
EDIT: Plug these coordinates into Google Earth and zoom in close enough to see the groves of trees along the river, as well as farmland to the north: 37 46'38.48"N, 87 06'43.64"W
Nickelless' proposed orchard (approximate location)is now marked on my Google Earth. BTW, I really like peaches. 
I've got a friend who's a master gardener, and was with the Maryland ag extension for 8 years, I'll ask her opinion on the subject. From the GE pictures, it looks like there are plenty of deciduous trees growing in the area now, so I'd imagine Walnut and fruit trees would be possible.
You probably want to find out who owns the land on the north bank before you go planting anything there.  It may be public land though, as there's a road running just beyond the tree line.
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"Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty." Thomas Jefferson
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Nickelless
Administrator
USA
5580 Posts |
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Delawhere Jack
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1680 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2008 : 17:01:33
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Nickelless,
I spoke with my horticulture consultant last night. She said that you should look for land that is above the 10 yr flood plain, and preferably in a 50 yr or longer flood plain. Also, she said that the higher humidity near rivers can be problematic with fruit trees. Also, in order to insure good yield, fruit trees need to be treated with an insecticide, usually in the spring, and this may not be allowed close to the water.
As for pollution from the river, she didn't think that was as much of a concern as the issues stated above.
She did like the dwarf tree idea as they are more manageable and bear fruit sooner.
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"Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty." Thomas Jefferson
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Edited by - Delawhere Jack on 12/08/2008 17:05:10 |
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Bluegill
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1964 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2008 : 17:17:50
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Are you sure planting trees on government land is a good idea?
If SHTF like you think might-or even if we don't have a Mad Max scenario like you're planning for, and everything remains civil:
How would you claim them as your's?
How would you stop somebody else from harvesting them?
How would you stop somebody from cutting them down for firewood?
In the meantime, what if the government finds them there and removes them, wanting that area clear for a reason? At your expense...
Before plunking your hard earned money down, you might want to look into this.
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Edited by - Bluegill on 12/08/2008 17:18:32 |
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Kurr
1000+ Penny Miser Member
2906 Posts |
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Nickelless
Administrator
USA
5580 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2008 : 05:18:04
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| I got a package of mustard-greens seeds yesterday from an eBay auction I won--those things are small!!--and I got to wondering, in lieu of having actual packages of seeds available for certain plants, are there any gardening resources any of you know of that show how to get seeds from plants that don't have what most of us would look for in terms of seed pods or the like? Where do we look on a mustard plant to procure seeds? What about from other leafy vegetables? What about root vegetables such as carrots or parsnips? I have carrot and parsnip seeds, but I don't recall ever seeing carrots or parsnips growing with any kind of apparent seed reservoir that could be harvested for the seeds. These seeds had to come from SOMEWHERE...which is why I invested seed money in this. Any experts on how to get garden plants to have sex so they can have offspring? |
Visit my new preparedness site: Preparedness.cc/SurvivalPrep.net
--Latest article: Stocking up on spices to keep food preps lively
---------------
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NotABigDeal
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
3890 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2008 : 06:18:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Nickelless
I got a package of mustard-greens seeds yesterday from an eBay auction I won--those things are small!!--and I got to wondering, in lieu of having actual packages of seeds available for certain plants, are there any gardening resources any of you know of that show how to get seeds from plants that don't have what most of us would look for in terms of seed pods or the like? Where do we look on a mustard plant to procure seeds? What about from other leafy vegetables? What about root vegetables such as carrots or parsnips? I have carrot and parsnip seeds, but I don't recall ever seeing carrots or parsnips growing with any kind of apparent seed reservoir that could be harvested for the seeds. These seeds had to come from SOMEWHERE...which is why I invested seed money in this. Any experts on how to get garden plants to have sex so they can have offspring?
Low lighting, some good wine, and a little Barry White?
Deal |
Live free or die.
Plain and simple.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your council or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
- Samuel Adams |
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PreservingThePast
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1572 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2008 : 15:18:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Nickelless
I got a package of mustard-greens seeds yesterday from an eBay auction I won--those things are small!!--and I got to wondering, in lieu of having actual packages of seeds available for certain plants, are there any gardening resources any of you know of that show how to get seeds from plants that don't have what most of us would look for in terms of seed pods or the like? Where do we look on a mustard plant to procure seeds? What about from other leafy vegetables? What about root vegetables such as carrots or parsnips? I have carrot and parsnip seeds, but I don't recall ever seeing carrots or parsnips growing with any kind of apparent seed reservoir that could be harvested for the seeds. These seeds had to come from SOMEWHERE...which is why I invested seed money in this. Any experts on how to get garden plants to have sex so they can have offspring?
I thought mustard greens was just a southern food. If you want plants that will produce food with good flavor do some research and find a place that sells heritage plant seeds. These are the older, tastier varieties that were in existence before the new hybrids that have little taste, etc.
Also, as far as planting the trees. Just because an area is undeveloped now, doesn't mean that in a few years it won't be "paved over" for some large development. Also, you usually need a few of a variety for the necessary cross pollination in order to produce the fruit/nuts.
Down here in Central Florida almost all garden centers, flea markets, etc. have the trays or six-packs of the young plants that are garden ready for sale at reasonable prices so I don't know if this would be a good use of your resources. Even the "big box stores" down here sell these seedlings at planting times.
Where did you find blackberry seeds? That is so cool. I had no idea that they could be grown that way. I thought they usually came from cuttings. Awesome! |
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Nickelless
Administrator
USA
5580 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2008 : 16:09:33
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quote:
Originally posted by PreservingThePast
quote:
Originally posted by Nickelless
I got a package of mustard-greens seeds yesterday from an eBay auction I won--those things are small!!--and I got to wondering, in lieu of having actual packages of seeds available for certain plants, are there any gardening resources any of you know of that show how to get seeds from plants that don't have what most of us would look for in terms of seed pods or the like? Where do we look on a mustard plant to procure seeds? What about from other leafy vegetables? What about root vegetables such as carrots or parsnips? I have carrot and parsnip seeds, but I don't recall ever seeing carrots or parsnips growing with any kind of apparent seed reservoir that could be harvested for the seeds. These seeds had to come from SOMEWHERE...which is why I invested seed money in this. Any experts on how to get garden plants to have sex so they can have offspring?
I thought mustard greens was just a southern food. If you want plants that will produce food with good flavor do some research and find a place that sells heritage plant seeds. These are the older, tastier varieties that were in existence before the new hybrids that have little taste, etc.
Also, as far as planting the trees. Just because an area is undeveloped now, doesn't mean that in a few years it won't be "paved over" for some large development. Also, you usually need a few of a variety for the necessary cross pollination in order to produce the fruit/nuts.
Down here in Central Florida almost all garden centers, flea markets, etc. have the trays or six-packs of the young plants that are garden ready for sale at reasonable prices so I don't know if this would be a good use of your resources. Even the "big box stores" down here sell these seedlings at planting times.
Where did you find blackberry seeds? That is so cool. I had no idea that they could be grown that way. I thought they usually came from cuttings. Awesome!
WTSHTF, I don't think people will care that mustard greens or turnip greens are a "Southern" food. Seriously, the seeds I'm collecting are the ones where you could get the most nutrition and taste for the least amount of work--which is not to say you want to neglect what you're planting, but the stuff that basically grows without much effort is the way I think most of us would want to go. I've gotten the vast majority of my seeds so far from eBay. Haven't had time to hit the garden shops and greenhouses, but eBay is open 24/7.
Speaking of which, how much difference in flavor, nutrition, etc., is there between "regular" seeds and heirloom seeds? I don't think many of the seed packs I've got are heirloom seeds, if any are at all, but I figure having at least some seeds, even if they aren't heirloom seeds, would be better than having none at all. But I'll start keeping my eye on heirloom seed auctions and see what I can grab. |
Visit my new preparedness site: Preparedness.cc/SurvivalPrep.net
--Latest article: Stocking up on spices to keep food preps lively
---------------
Be prepared...and prepared to help: http://www.survivalblog.com/charity.html
Are you ready spiritually for hard times? http://www.jesusfreak.com/rapture.asp |
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Bluegill
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1964 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2008 : 16:42:26
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One of the differences between hybrid and heirloom varieties is that with the heirlooms you can collect the seeds to plant the next season. Most hybrids produce sterile seeds. Even when they do on occasion germinate, the result is nothing like the parent plant. Often it is quite undesirable...
These "heirloom" varieties (they weren't referred to heirloom back then) were how early farmers acquired their seeds to feed themselves. They didn't buy seeds from Burpee.
Carrots are biennial. They only produce seed every other year. Here you absolutely will need an heirloom variety.
You plant the seed the first year. Come harvest time you need to do one of two things. If you're in a growing zone with mild winters you leave some of your crop in the ground. If your in a colder zone you will have to store the roots in a refrigerator. This step is necessary or the next won't work.
The next year you plant these roots in the ground. They will grow flowers, make sure they get pollinated. When the flowers turn brown is when you harvest the seeds.
The seeds can be planted that same year for food purposes. So you only get seeds every other year.
You should do some research on this and verify, I'm quoting this from memory and my memory ain't what it used to be... Also, none of this is as simple and easy as it at first sounds.
I would recommend if you're going to hoard, you hoard heirloom varieties for all your vegetables...
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Nickelless
Administrator
USA
5580 Posts |
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Bluegill
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1964 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2008 : 18:17:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Nickelless
Points well-taken, Bluegill. Are there heirloom seeds out there for pretty much all types of vegetables? For that matter, what should I do with the non-heirloom seeds I have? I'd hate to just throw them away...
Yes, pretty much. Even Burpee sells them now. There are companies that specialize in them too.
Just plant the ones you have now in the spring. Replace them with the heirlooms.
Just an idea... Unless you're already a green thumb, you might want to consider actually starting to grow your own veggies as a practice trial run. Better to see what pitfalls you need to overcome now than when your survival depends on it.
They will include drought, excessive rain, unusually cold ar hot seasons, varmits, thieving neighbors, disease...
Is your soil suitable, does it need to be ammended?
How is your irrigation system set up?
Most vegetables need lot's of sunlight, does your garden area have adequate sunlight.
What are your fertilizer options? Natural(organic) is best.
Growing your own food can be fun, rewarding and healthier. But it does take effort and some know how, but once you get the hang of it, not that hard. 
Also, vegetables can be grown in large pots and buckets. You need about 5 gallons a plant. I have grown tomatoes and peppers that way with great success.
Tomatoes love heat and water, placing the planters on a hot concrete driveway and watering them at least twice a day. The tomatoes will love you for it and grow and produce beyond your expectations. Just place bricks as spacers between the planters and the driveway surface so there is no direct contact.
Corn can and should be grown in the same planter as pole beans. The corn stalk provides the support for the beans, and the beans provide the nitrogen the corn needs.
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Delawhere Jack
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1680 Posts |
Posted - 12/10/2008 : 19:15:12
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| Tap your local agricultural extension for info. Every "land grant college" has an extension. They have agents in virtually every county in the US where the college has a presence. Most of them have websites, and they are a treasure trove of info for everything from home gardening to large scale agriculture. |
"Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty." Thomas Jefferson
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Delawhere Jack
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1680 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2008 : 16:49:13
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After the hunt Saturday, we gathered some pecans that had fallen from a very old tree. We ate a couple, and I brought about 2 dozen home. I'm going to try to plant them and raise them to seedlings to replant back on the farm. From what I've read, they start to produce nuts at 5-7 years. Planting from nuts can result in varying quality nuts. Most commercial trees are grafted with known good varieties, but I figure that most of the yeild would go to the squirrels, fox and deer anyway, and they're not too picky. They need some variety in their diet besides corn.
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"Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty." Thomas Jefferson
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Edited by - Delawhere Jack on 12/14/2008 16:50:23 |
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Nickelless
Administrator
USA
5580 Posts |
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Nickelless
Administrator
USA
5580 Posts |
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Lemon Thrower
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1588 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2009 : 05:54:05
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| have been hearing reports of seed companies being extremely busy and close to sold out. don't procrastinate. |
Buying:
Peace/Morgan G+ at $15.00
copper cents at 1.3X
wheat pennies at 3X
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silverhalide
Penny Sorter Member
92 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2009 : 17:18:44
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Three years ago I made my small postage stamp size yard into an edible landscape with 2 self pollenating dwarf fruit trees, blackberry bushes on the east side of my house, two variety of grapes along my fenceline 4 raised square foot gardens and best of all no grass to cut.
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Nickelless
Administrator
USA
5580 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2009 : 18:49:21
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quote:
Originally posted by silverhalide
Three years ago I made my small postage stamp size yard into an edible landscape with 2 self pollenating dwarf fruit trees, blackberry bushes on the east side of my house, two variety of grapes along my fenceline 4 raised square foot gardens and best of all no grass to cut.
Sweet! How has that been working for you? I want to do something like that as soon as I stop commuting between two cities for work and finalize a purchase on a house. |
Visit my new preparedness site: Preparedness.cc/SurvivalPrep.net
--Latest article: Stocking up on spices to keep food preps lively
---------------
Be prepared...and prepared to help: http://www.survivalblog.com/charity.html
Are you ready spiritually for hard times? http://www.jesusfreak.com/rapture.asp |
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silverhalide
Penny Sorter Member
92 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2009 : 20:14:40
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It has been working OK but the yields have been going down YOY. I think the reason could be that I got black walnut tainted compost. Since I am doing this in roughly about a 12x32ft space total I have been sticking with the crops that yield the most with the least effort like summer squashes, tomatoes and peppers. My fruit trees are dwarf peach and plum.
Considering the tiny area I have to work with my setup works pretty well. I get a yield where it and foraging provides a little over 60% of my annual fruit and vegetable consumption and close to half of my annual fish/meat consumption and enough room to store 2 cords of firewood. I live on a 80 degree bluff with 50 ft of lake frontage and have a 28ft wide floating dock with outbuilding.
I bought the house in 2000 and moved here permanently from my urban house in 2006. |
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Grow your own...food, that is
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