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Nickelless
Administrator
USA
5580 Posts |
 Posted - 12/01/2006 : 05:42:54
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Just for the sake of argument, let's say Wall Street gets hit by a suitcase nuke and the U.S. and maybe world economy go down the crapper permanently. Other than gold and silver, how useful would copper be versus zinc versus nickel in the event that inflation makes coins worthless? How much demand is there for zinc? What about nickel? I'm keeping my silver coins separate (don't have any gold except my wedding band), but will anyone really care about zinc relative to other metals if SHTF?
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146 Posts |
Posted - 12/01/2006 : 07:50:10
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As I've mentioned previously, zinc is used in the construction of batteries. Copper has various electrical and electronic uses, which could be useful in the construction of the devices which use the batteries. However, if people are unable to access electricity at that time to power those devices, they'll need loads of alkaline batteries made with zinc. That's why I think zinc will go up higher than copper at that time.
See also:
<You must be logged in to see this link.
<You must be logged in to see this link.
<You must be logged in to see this link.
Nickel has several uses as well, you can read them here:
<You must be logged in to see this link.
However, keep in mind that "nickels" (except the older Canadian nickels) are not made with nickel but with a "cupronickel" alloy. There are some uses of cupronickel listed here:
<You must be logged in to see this link.
Note, however, that in the event that these coins are to be melted down, a near-pure form of the metal is necessary. So your best bet is to hoard copper and zinc pennies, since they are 95% and 97.5% pure, respectively, and if you live in Canada, hoard those older 99.9% nickels the Canadians on this board always talk about. See <You must be logged in to see this link. for more information. Also, if you are expecting SHTF, remember to hoard precious metals, since the metal content is 90% or greater depending on the coin. Don't hoard the coins which are under 90% of the metal, such as US Jefferson nickels and "war nickels" (except for fun or collecting purposes), as no one will melt them down.
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"The best way to destroy the capitalist system is to debauch the currency. By a continuing process of inflation governments can confiscate, secretly and unobserved, an important part of the wealth of their citizens." -John Maynard Keynes |
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479 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2006 : 10:20:07
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If the problem is accute and severe, the currency of the realm will be canned goods.
Canned goods can keep for decades. Don't buy dented cans! If you open a can and a bubbly ooze comes out under pressure, that's botulism.
I have a stock pile of non rechargable batteries, AAA, AA, C, D sizes. I have two ammo cans full.
I think batteries will be a great barter item.
But you asked about metals, not barter.
I like pennies and nickles, because:
1. You can buy them today for less than they are "worth"
2. You will Never have to convince anyone that they are money.
3. They are already formed into a useful size, shape, weight, etc.
4. They are much more permanent than say, batteries or canned foods.
Nickles, in my opinion, have the look and feel of real money.
I imagine that they would continue to be worth 5 pennies, even under dire circomestances.
I think that zinc pennies and copper pennies will be treated as equals to all but the most self educated among us.
Most people will not value pre 1982s over post 1982s.
A billiard ball dropped from 1,362 feet (height of the South Tower) in a
vacuum would require 9.22 seconds to hit the ground. How then did the
towers collapse in 10 seconds and 11.4 seconds, and why has not one
member of the mainstream media insisted on honest answers from the
government in this regard?
"The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a conspiracy
so monstrous [that] he cannot believe it exists."
- J. Edgar Hoover |
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132 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2006 : 17:50:57
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In the case of a SHTF scenario i feel that the
copper and nickel coins will take up the slack
between gold and silver in transactions.
12-3-06 spot price for PM's
gold 645.00
silver 14.00
spot for BM's
copper 3.19
nickel 15.24
Lets say you need to purchase something/anything
for around 50.00 - 60.00
you could pay........
1 gram gold.....21.50
2 ounce silver...28.00
3 pound of copper lincolns....9.57
So you have 59.07
You can do it other ways without the copper or nickel
but thats what i mean by take up slack.
I also know a few people that cant swing the gold
investment so they hoard up more of the copper/nickel
and will use the silver for the bulk of purchases.
Hear is a link that talks about survival coins.
You must be logged in to see this link.
Just a little more diversity with the copper/nickel coins.
"History records that the money changers have used
every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent
means possible to maintain their control over governments
by controlling the money and its issuance."
James Madison |
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2006 : 18:12:55
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If SHTF and it's bad enough there will be no money as we know it. It will be a barter economy. As things progress then money as a means of exchange will start to be used again. As pre-82 already said, I too feel that the base metal coins would be used along with gold and silver. In fact, I could see base metal coins being used more only because there are more of them already in circulation.
On other hard money forums a lot of people don't consider the base metals to be hard money at all. Some even don't consider silver to be hard money. I disagree with them because the base metals have been used through out history along with gold and silver as money. They are even being used today; for the time being at least.
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If you can conceive it and believe it, you can achieve it. -Napoleon Hill |
Edited by - Ardent Listener on 12/03/2006 18:16:06 |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2006 : 18:54:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Ardent Listener
If SHTF and it's bad enough there will be no money as we know it. It will be a barter economy. As things progress then money as a means of exchange will start to be used again. As pre-82 already said, I too feel that the base metal coins would be used along with gold and silver. In fact, I could see base metal coins being used more only because there are more of them already in circulation.
On other hard money forums a lot of people don't consider the base metals to be hard money at all. Some even don't consider silver to be hard money. I disagree with them because the base metals have been used through out history along with gold and silver as money. They are even being used today; for the time being at least.
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If you can conceive it and believe it, you can achieve it. -Napoleon Hill
It is a shame that most have either never learned, or have forgotten, that money, the store of value used for trade, has taken many forms besides gold and silver.
Tobacco was used as money in colonial Virginia.
Salt was used as money by the ancient Romans and by tribes in Africa where salt was scarce.
Tea compressed into bricks was used as money and was acceptable to pay workers as late as the 1930's.
Nails, sheep and cattle, musket balls, feathers, cowire shells, you name it, just about anything you can think of, it was probably used as money at one time or another.
After communism fell in eastern europe, packs of cigarettes were 'coin of the realm'.
Barter only works smoothly if both parties are willing to swap what the other has, otherwise, a barterer may have to go to two or three or a dozen different traders to get what the original trader will accept. This is why some barter clubs have barter dollars, to gaurantee each will get what the other barterer wants or can swap later.
Money as means to carry on trade will never go away, buyers and sellers will want some type of 'middleman' to either speed up the transaction or gaurantee that the seller gets something of gauranteed worth in the sale. |
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132 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2006 : 19:05:33
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A little more on this topic........
I believe this is from realcent the forum owner.
If im wrong please forgive me........
The economy collapses, and regular money becomes worthless. This is not as farfetched as it may sound. Historically speaking, every economy, country, government, etc., collapses or crashes. When that happens the money that government produced becomes worthless, unless it also has some real metal value (like gold, silver, and copper). Most people learned in school about how when the German Mark was devalued, it took a wheelbarrow full to buy a loaf of bread. It has happened many times before, and will absolutely happen again, it is a matter of when, not if. When this occurs, people will need something to use for money that has actual value. (gold, silver, copper, and the barter system.) This scenario is referred to in some circles as WTSHTF (When The Sh#t Hits The Fan). It is probably not a bad idea to prepare for such a time, and saving or hoarding real money (money that contains its value in metal) because the paper and junk metal we use now may be absolutely worthless.
In a SHTF scenario, people will still have to make purchases, and need a medium of exchange. The barter system will be huge, but eventually people will need something to use as money. (How many chickens should I take for a box of shotgun shells?) Gold will be used for the huge purchases, Silver for smaller purchases, and copper pennies may be used for smaller purchases, or to make change for silver coins and one ounce silver bars and rounds. We have the oppurtunity right now to obtain as many pre-1982 copper pennies as we want at face value. Once that oppurtunity is gone, it will be gone forever. If you never need them, your children may.
You must be logged in to see this link.
"History records that the money changers have used
every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent
means possible to maintain their control over governments
by controlling the money and its issuance."
James Madison |
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n/a
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479 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2006 : 20:03:28
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This is the hording pennies section.
There is a WTSHTF section also.
This thread contains elements of both because, indeed, the two overlap.
In a post monetary collapse environment, most people will have nothing to sell.
They won't have any canned goods, fresh fruit, candles, etc.
A few (perhaps 5%) of the people will have something I want.
I could buy sandpaper, or razor blades, or soap. But I have more candles than anyone around here, I'm absolutely sure of it.
Maybe I could buy a piano for one ounce of gold.
Maybe I could buy a boat for a few peices of silver.
What would the guy with all the fancy wine want for his overpriced bottles? Would he trade me a bottle of $30 wine for a bottle of propane that I paid $2 for?
I recommend to anyone who is hording for a WTSHTF scenario to hold these basics:
1. Canned and dehydrated foods.
2. Fuel. Candles, Propane camping bottles, newspapers, anything that you can get cheap now that you could burn later.
3. Water filters and cartridges.
4. Tools. Especially hardware, you know nails, screws, aluminum foil, etc.
If you are preparing for a SHTF scenario AND you have lots of these kinds of things, THEN hord money.
If you are preparing for a long slow slide into poverty, then hoard pennies.
If you are like me and you can't decide, hoard both.
Peace to you and yours
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A billiard ball dropped from 1,362 feet (height of the South Tower) in a
vacuum would require 9.22 seconds to hit the ground. How then did the
towers collapse in 10 seconds and 11.4 seconds, and why has not one
member of the mainstream media insisted on honest answers from the
government in this regard?
"The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a conspiracy
so monstrous [that] he cannot believe it exists."
- J. Edgar Hoover |
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2006 : 20:46:10
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Yes, IMO, S could Hit The Fan. Even if it doesn't we are still going to continue to see a world-wide growing population along with a decreasing supply of commodities base metals included. For all I know they may soon start mining the ocean's floor for base metals, but in the mean time base metals continue to seem to be a good solid investment.
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If you can conceive it and believe it, you can achieve it. -Napoleon Hill |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 12/03/2006 : 22:33:05
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| Good point about candles Atheist. I once was told that it is a good idea to keep an empty cofee can and a few emergency candles in your car during winter time. If you get stuck in icy conditions and you worry you will run out of heat if you run out of gas, you can light a candle and let it burn in the coffee can and it is supposed to provide enough heat to keep you from freezing. I have not tried this myself it seems like a workable idea. |
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beercritic
Penny Pincher Member
USA
112 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2006 : 08:25:13
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When hyperinflation hits a paper currency, the coins are quickly removed (hoarded) from circulation and used for barter. Folks that store most of their wealth in paper, are pretty much screwed. Coins will become more and more dear as time goes on.
Most folks do have a small stash of base-metal coins. They will want to hold on to them, using them for dire times. Eventually, some of the precious will begin circulating, too. At that point, it'd be OK to occasionally whip out some silver.
It'd probably not be a very good idea to be one of the first people to barter with precious. You'd be known as 'that guy who has silver'. Instead of someone who eventually 'just happened to get some in trade'.
JMHO
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Metalophile
Penny Collector Member
USA
320 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2006 : 09:14:52
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That's right, beercritic, spend your paper first if you can, and save your metals for when you really need them and after a market develops for them. And if you do have a metals stash, be sure you have the means to defend your home and family in case people do notice that you have metals to trade.
On candles, at first I was skeptical that you could get much heat from a candle, but I did a quick back-of-the envelope calculation: Suppose you're waiting out a winter storm in your car and you have some 4 oz. candles which take 4 hours to burn each. That's about 100 g of parrafin, and burning them releases approx. 9 kcal per gram, or 900 kcal or 900,000 calories. 4.184 joules per calorie, so that's about 3.8 million joules per candle. Now, if you burn that over a period of 4 hours, that's 4 hrs x (60 min/hr) x (60 sec/min) = 14400 seconds. That means 3.8 million joules produced over a time of 14400 seconds, 3,800,000 joules/14,400 sec = 264 watts. That candle is the equivalent of having a 260 watt heater, or about 1/6 the output of a blow dryer set on high. That's not enough to keep you cozy, but in a confined space like a car it may well help to keep you from freezing to death!
In a related vein, I recently purchased a 8' x 8' tent for about $25, not to use outside, but to pitch in the middle of our living room in case of power outage (as in ice storm) or SHTF during winter time. If there's not any fuel or electricity to heat the whole house, I figure the family could huddle in the tent, maybe throw a couple of blankets over the top, and our body heat in the confined space will keep us much warmer than out in the open room. Now, cooling the house in the summer in Arkansas . . . I haven't figured that one out yet! Maybe we'll pitch the tent in the back yard.
Metalophile |
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479 Posts |
Posted - 12/04/2006 : 09:16:35
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I Think Beercritic's point is extremely important.
So here's a possible chronology.
1. SHTF
2. Barter and paper money
3. Base coins
4. Precious metal
5. See You must be logged in to see this link.
A billiard ball dropped from 1,362 feet (height of the South Tower) in a
vacuum would require 9.22 seconds to hit the ground. How then did the
towers collapse in 10 seconds and 11.4 seconds, and why has not one
member of the mainstream media insisted on honest answers from the
government in this regard?
"The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a conspiracy
so monstrous [that] he cannot believe it exists."
- J. Edgar Hoover |
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n/a
deleted
479 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2007 : 19:17:40
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I dug up this old thread because it contained the word, "confiscate".
I would like to report to the board that I have changed my tactics recentely.
I no longer get most of my cash from the ATM directly.
Instead I get my cash at the cashiers in grocery stores and suchlike.
The cash that is despensed to me at the ATM is likely to create a database entry in which the serial number of the actual federal reserve notes being dispensed is tied to my personal data.
If I then go down the street with those serial numbers and buy precious metals, the database miners will be able to put two and two together if they decide to confiscate my PMs.
If however, I get "cash back" from the use of an ATM card at a grocery store, it is very unlikely that those serial numbers acn be traced to me.
There was an old saying,
"Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't me they aren't out to get me."
Let me paraphrase if you will,
"Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't me they aren't out to get my precious metals."
peace
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tmaring
Penny Collector Member
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2007 : 19:38:56
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You mentioned the word confiscate with respect to precious metals... and at first I just went "harumpff"... but then I recall that there was a period when US citizens were not permitted to hold gold. I never understood how that prohibition was run, and how exceptions for coins and for jewelery and jewelers was managed. I don't really understand why they did that in the first place... I guess it was abit before my time. Does anybody foresee a situation in which the government would try to make a similar prohibition against metals hoarding again?
Tom Maringer
Shire Post Mint
Springdale, Arkansas |
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
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479 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2007 : 19:55:38
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yes, several of us, especially pencilvanian and myself have commented on this repeatedly.
My GUESS is that confiscation is only "worth it" at a fairly large scale.
If you have a 100 million bucks of gold at your house and they know it, it would be worth their time and effort to come to your house, point a gun in your face and get your gold.
If you have $3000. worth of silver, and nickel, and one gold coin, you will PROBABLY not be worth it.
THe whole thing really revolves around monopoly power.
Right now the Federal Reserve Banks hold a monopoly power over what money, "is".
If they thought that that power were in any serious danger of competition, they would sick the goons on whomever they saw as a serious threat to their monopoly position.
They have done this in the past.
Draw your own conclusions about the future, but I recommend that you read up on the past examples of monopolies that are threatened with competition, before concluding that they would not "play hardball" and / or "make an example of" someone to force eveyone else into compliance.
PEACE!
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43 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2007 : 20:52:50
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i think it all depends. I would say for daily transactions in a hyperinflationary scenario you would want to have smaller denominations.
for major purchases you'd probably want silver and gold and etc.
Hey Now. |
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479 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2007 : 21:03:06
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I agree with the basic notion of Diversification.
In a minor SHTF scenario, I don't expect the dollar to collapse.
In a middle scale SHTF scenario, Silver and Nickel and Copper would be better than gold and rhodium, and pladium.
In an all out S--- H-- T-- F--!!!!! scenario, I could buy a city block downtown for an can of pork-n-beans.
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n/a
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478 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2007 : 07:11:22
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If the SHTF, Weapons and ammo will be worth as much, if not more than food.
With weapons, people can TAKE your food. People can TAKE your gold, silver, copper, etc or I can DEFEND against you trying to take MINE forcing you to move on to softer targets. Those with weapons will be the ones who survive.
High grade brass is used in rifle cartidges. A nice dual purpose way to buy copper. Ammunition in popular calibers will be worth their weight in gold. Just my opinion. |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2007 : 21:31:31
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Lead would also be good for reloading.
Reloading supplies would be useful too.
If you have the only reloading setup for miles around, you have a business for the post WTSHTF days. |
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479 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2007 : 21:57:26
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We all have to make moral decisions.
I have decided in advance that I will not kill for food.
If things get that bad, someone will probably kill me.
I do not have a gun, and will not buy one.
Since I have candles, propane, food, water, etc. etc etc at my house, my place is an easy target and I know it.
Maybe it's just my devout atheism, but I know that I will not kill for food, period.
I'd rather die and leave my hoard to some undeserving murderer than have blood on my hands.
Honestly, I would rather die than kill.
I will die within a few decades whether I kill or not.
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Edited by - n/a on 02/28/2007 22:02:50 |
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Canadian_Nickle
Penny Hoarding Member
Canada
938 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2007 : 22:08:58
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Surely being able to ignore "thou shalt not kill" is one of the benefits of atheism, no?
I have no gun either, but for a different reason: You must be logged in to see this link.
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Edited by - Canadian_Nickle on 02/28/2007 22:09:53 |
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479 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2007 : 22:38:18
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An atheist has no one to turn to to beg forgiveness from.
I have to look in the mirror to settle my scores on moral decisions.
I wish I could take the easy road of theism, but it just seems too easy.
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Edited by - n/a on 02/28/2007 22:40:49 |
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When SHTF, what metal will be most useful?
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