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n/a
deleted
23 Posts |
 Posted - 09/10/2008 : 22:18:08
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It occured to me today that companies like Coinstar and Brinks are sitting in the prime spot to cull out the coppers that passes through their hands before they pass them back down to the banks. They certainly have the ability to buy the necessary sorters. But based on what I read here, their rolls have coppers in them too. I wonder if they've thought to culling the coppers but rejected the idea. If so, I wonder why they don't? Any thoughts guys?
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moboman
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2555 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2008 : 22:42:22
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probably b/c that would cost the US government a lot to replace all the coppers in circulation, therefore the government probably gives brinks/coinstar some kind of stypen not to. Remember the melt ban is b/c of the pre-1982 pennies in circulation would cost a fortune to replace. No one would melt zinc cents!
Just a thought. |
"99% of all lawyers give the rest of them a bad name" 
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jadedragon
Administrator
Canada
3788 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2008 : 22:57:54
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This is just my opinion - take it for what it's worth.
Yes they could pull major copper pretty quickly and the big coin machines already have the capacity to discriminate by metal content but:
1. where is the big market while there is a melt ban? Will they sell on ebay? Copper pennies are still a thin market
2. as company's that are working closely with the Mint and Fed responsible for ensuring the coins are available where they are needed, will they annoy the Mint by significantly reducing the pennies in circulation?
3. Who will finance the buying and storage of huge quantities of copper pennies for unknown periods of time? That is not Coinstar's business or Brink's business. Coinstar has Brinks and other Armored Car companies pick up and process for them.
4. Except for the very small numbers of pennies pulled by our group of hobbyists (and a few others), no one is pulling copper. If you have access to millions of pennies everyday, and could get as much copper % tomorrow as you could today, all over the USA, why bother pulling copper and tieing up your cash in pennies today? We do it because it takes us time to accumulate and we will not be able to grab so fast when the pennies can be melted.
Therefore there is no real reason to pull really large scale copper until it can be melted. When the word goes out from the Mint that the melt ban has lifted, the big players will step in and grab all the copper fairly quickly.
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“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” – George Bernard Shaw.
Why Copper Bullion ~~~ Interview with Silver Bullion Producer Market Harmony
Passive Income blog |
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fasTTcar
Penny Hoarding Member
Canada
573 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2008 : 08:18:53
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| In Canada, the mint is pulling CuNi out through a program called ARP (alloy recovery program) via Coinstar and its processor CDI. |
www.londongoldbuyer.com |
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Copper Catcher
Administrator
USA
2092 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2008 : 09:39:06
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| Let's think about this for a moment. If the US Mint switched to using another metal why would they go to the trouble of trying to pull copper out the system knowing for every penny they pull out it would have to be replaced costing $$$. Also, while you, me and everyone on the forum are wishing for the melt band to be lifted, why would the Mint ever consider this? In another words, what would be their benefit to doing so? The Mint is not set up to make money sorting coins but obviously in Canada they see a benefit to "recovering" certain metals. I might be talking myself out of hoarding pennies!! But really the only downside to hoarding pennies is the time value of the money tied up and of course your own time. |
Edited by - Copper Catcher on 09/11/2008 11:19:11 |
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Copper Catcher
Administrator
USA
2092 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2008 : 09:41:35
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| Another thought....the Mint does not have to play by it's own rules. They can melt all they want, we just can't! So if they do decide to do "recovering" via contracting this out to folks like Brinks and Coinstar do you really think they are going to bother to tell US about it? |
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horgad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1641 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2008 : 10:08:48
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| Most businesses don't want to hoard. Their investors want to see cash flow and profits not piles of copper assets building up... |
Edited by - horgad on 09/11/2008 14:17:49 |
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Copper Catcher
Administrator
USA
2092 Posts |
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billsattic
Penny Sorter Member
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2008 : 12:53:51
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| I know that if the ban is lifted, I'm melting away. There is just too many on the market to have any real collector value. There will be a few lucky dividuals who might get premium on a auction block / ebay or something, but this would only be sporadic. |
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AgCollector
Penny Collector Member
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2008 : 20:21:35
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I know some of you read goldismoney.info but here's an interesting post from a guy named <SLV> who says he melted up to 150,000,000 cents before the ban:
(original thread: You must be logged in to see this link.)
I got a call on July 3rd from the coin manager at the Denver Brinks location. He said, "I've got $80,000 in COPPER pennies sitting on the dock, and I was wondering if you wanted to buy them."
Short version: Brinks has upgraded their equipment nationally and has started to sort out all the copper pennies from the coins which they process on behalf of Coinstar. Coinstar sees a future market to resell these for a profit while at the same time cutting back on the amount of coins that they have to deposit with the bank (and therefore incur banking fees).
After a couple weeks of phone calls I ended up speaking for some time with the Chief Counsel at the US Mint. Basically, the ban on melting/export is still firmly in place. Despite rumors that Jackson Metals in Ohio was purchasing these coins from Coinstar and melting them under "special permit" from the US Mint, I was assured that all applications for special permit have been declined. The mint's chief attorney told me that the ban on melting/export/"treating" would continue until the following two conditions were met:
1. The US Congress grants approval for the mint to make cents and nickels out of an alloy of their choosing (They favor a bill introduced in the Senate recently by Wayne Allard -- #1986 if I remember correctly).
2. They MUST be able to make a penny for less than $0.01. Even if they switch alloys they are not convinced - given the current inflationary environment - that another alloy would bring the cost to under $0.01.
If both of these conditions were met they would lift the ban as soon as they were producing the new alloyed coins.
I probably shouldn't be sharing so many trade secrets, but as far as I can tell it is game over for my company, Pincher Processing, because Brinks, by upgrading their equipment, just cut me out of the chain.
BTW... coinstar is currently sorting out 3,000,000 copper cents PER DAY (5 days/week) in conjunction with Brinks nationally.
One more thing: The reason they wanted to sell me that $80,000 stack of copper cents is because their (Coinstar's) inventory is getting too large while waiting for the ban to be lifted. They wanted me to tie up capital in the waiting game. Coinstar does not "deposit" the copper cents, but they are held by Brinks as "inventory" on their balance sheet. |
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jadedragon
Administrator
Canada
3788 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2008 : 20:35:28
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| Wow thanks AgCollector. One of the best posts I've seen in a while - and I made some poor assumptions. |
“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” – George Bernard Shaw.
Why Copper Bullion ~~~ Interview with Silver Bullion Producer Market Harmony
Passive Income blog |
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n/a
deleted
84 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2008 : 20:44:25
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Copper Catcher,
I would hesitate to assume that all of the sorters and hoarders on this forum are eager for the melt ban to be lifted. For many of us, the melt ban acts as a protective umbrella that allows us to pursue this hobby without competition from the big commercial sorters. We don't want to compete with Jackson Metals, etc., so we want the melt ban to remain.
Thoughts?
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"Truth is treason in the empire of lies." -Ron Paul, from _The Revolution: A Manifesto_ |
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knibloe
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1066 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2008 : 21:13:19
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I agree. I don't want the ban lifted. I sort on a small scale and put a little away each week. I have some goals that are a long way from being met, and if the ban stays in place I can sort slowly and not bother ramping up.
With the ban lifted, I would have to try and compete with the big boys and do it in a shortened time frame. |
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longhorn
Penny Sorter Member
80 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2008 : 21:15:38
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It seems to me that while the big guys probably have the capability to pull cu out of circulation, buying reports indicate they aren't doing it now on a large scale. When they begin to do so, they will rapidly accumulate a substaintial inventory of cu cents which cant be melted, and because of the "thin" market for cu cents are probably going to have to be put in inventory. This creates two big problems, it ties up working capital and it uses up their available warehouse space, yet it produces no revenue.
Corporations today are measured on their quarterly results, and can't afford to invest to much in this kind of endeavor which won't pay off till they have a market for these cents.
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Obey Gresham's Law |
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AgCollector
Penny Collector Member
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2008 : 06:00:51
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quote:
Originally posted by legacypac
Wow thanks AgCollector. One of the best posts I've seen in a while - and I made some poor assumptions.
Thanks- same guy, <SLV>, had also one point last December or so posted the whole details about his operation including number of operating machines, daily volume, logistics, etc but he has since deleted those posts. I estimated he probably made around $400,000 in the time he was sorting; I'm not sure how many workers he had but it was an impressive profit in a short amount of time. |
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NotABigDeal
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
3890 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2008 : 06:21:40
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Nice posts AgCollector. I'm going to have to read that whole thread. Interesting indeed.
Deal |
Live free or die.
Plain and simple.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your council or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
- Samuel Adams |
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Copper Catcher
Administrator
USA
2092 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2008 : 09:59:36
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Ref: Economist and knibloe NOT in favor of the ban being lifted. Interesting, but I'm not sure I think it would be a wise assumption to trust that "the big guys" whoever you might guess those to be are still not playing ball.
If investors sees the potential to make money then time is not a factor. Think of investing in copper pennies like a big viatical settlement waiting to happen! What is the estimated life expectancy remaining to the penny is anyone guess, but there is one things for sure, time will tell.
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Cody8404
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
602 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2008 : 12:31:26
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I see the melt ban being lifted quietly about the same time the mint starts reducing the number of cents being produced.
With inflation the way it is expect to see retailers stop excepting cents. If you write a check or use a credit card they will give the exact amount, but watch for retailers to stop using cents even faster if the Fed stops printing Dollar bills and the retailers need to find a spot for the dollar coins. The leave a penny take a penny helps many retailers ignore the cents.
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Awake, O kings of the earth! Come ye, O, come ye, with your gold and your silver, to the help of my people, to the house of the daughters of Zion, to the help of the people of the God of this Land even Jesus Christ. |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2008 : 14:04:16
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Melt ban or not, a copper penny can still be sold for 2 cents-
to a coin collector.
Think about it for a minute-
during the melt ban on silver coins not all of them went into the melting pot.
Junk silver/pre 1965 dimes, quarters and halves can still be found and can sell for more than silver's spot price if they are in uncirculated condition.
Suppose mixed in with your copper hoarde are some error cents, uncirculated cents, etc. Why sell for melt when you can sell to a collector for 2 cents or 2.5 cents each?
The melt ban stands in our way to make money selling pennies for scrap, but it has no effect on us to sell pennies as collectables.
As long as penny albums are made and there collectors willing to fill those albums, there will be a market for our cents, melt ban or not. |
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NDFARMER
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1197 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2008 : 14:29:20
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| I think the melt ban will be lifted in 2010 or 2011, after the 100th anniversary of the Lincoln penny and after they decide to do away with the penny as we continue to move toward a cashless society. |
COPPER - the "poormans" precious metal!!!
SELLING - $100.00 face copper shipped to you for $189.00 machine rolled or bagged - PM me if your interested. |
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horgad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1641 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2008 : 14:34:53
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quote:
Originally posted by pencilvanian
Melt ban or not, a copper penny can still be sold for 2 cents-
to a coin collector.
Think about it for a minute-
during the melt ban on silver coins not all of them went into the melting pot.
Junk silver/pre 1965 dimes, quarters and halves can still be found and can sell for more than silver's spot price if they are in uncirculated condition.
Suppose mixed in with your copper hoarde are some error cents, uncirculated cents, etc. Why sell for melt when you can sell to a collector for 2 cents or 2.5 cents each?
The melt ban stands in our way to make money selling pennies for scrap, but it has no effect on us to sell pennies as collectables.
As long as penny albums are made and there collectors willing to fill those albums, there will be a market for our cents, melt ban or not.
The question that pops into my mind is "What percentage of silver coins were melted down?". In other words, was there a period of melting required before it started to make more sense to sell silver coins to collectors? I am not old enough, but does anybody remember any stories of industrial scale melting of silver coins?
My thought on copper pennies is that supply will continue to outstrip collector demand (not copper demand) and push prices down until a whole carp load of them is melted. As such, the average price will stay below scrap until the melt ban is lifted. Afterwards, prices will quickly jump to scrap value and then later, after enough of them have been melted, prices will jump close to melt value.
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Dan52
Penny Collector Member
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2008 : 17:18:37
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| What is the penalty for selling copper coins for scrap? |
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n/a
deleted
23 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2008 : 19:40:21
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| Horgad, I was only 7 years old in 1965 when the US switched from 90% silver to CuNi in dimes & quarters, & by the time I began trying to collect coins to fill those Whitman folders (one or two years later) silver coins simply were not to be found in circulation. Virtually all the silver had been hoarded. I do not recall hearing of melting silver US coinage until the mid to late '70's when silver prices began to soar on speculation and the melting of silver coinage began in earnest. Anyone else remember the Hunt brothers? At that point lots of hoards came out of the woodwork and were sold at the going spot rate. |
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jadedragon
Administrator
Canada
3788 Posts |
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2008 : 02:39:40
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I remember the Hunt brothers.. I love the Hunt brothers.. I sold out everything at the peak.. the day before it crashed. I remember you had to deeply discount silver from spot if you wanted to sell it. I was only getting 26 times face.  |
If your percentages are low.. just sort more. If your percentages are high.. just sort more.
Now selling Copper pennies. 1.6x plus shipping. Limited amounts available. |
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Delawhere Jack
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1680 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2008 : 08:40:48
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quote:
Originally posted by AgCollector
2. They MUST be able to make a penny for less than $0.01. Even if they switch alloys they are not convinced - given the current inflationary environment - that another alloy would bring the cost to under $0.01.
If both of these conditions were met they would lift the ban as soon as they were producing the new alloyed coins.
With the current inflation level, what are the odds that ANY alloy would allow them to produce a cent for less than a cent? Even lead wouldn't fit the tab. The only viable means of producing under that threshold would be.....gasp...have them made in China, but the political ramifications would be disasterous.
So, short of the mint making coins from mud or plastic, rule #2 precludes the melt ban ever being lifted. Enter lobbyists. We've seen some members here, that have substantial hoards, measured in tons, and I have no doubt that some speculative investors out there have considerably more. A few well placed campaign contributions could get the ban lifted when the time is right.
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"Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty." Thomas Jefferson
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Why aren't "the big guys" hoarding?
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