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Nickelless
Administrator
USA
5580 Posts |
 Posted - 09/07/2008 : 05:21:39
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I figured I'd sort one last brick before I turned in for the night, and as I was watching my zinc pile I noticed a 1976 penny (Philadelphia mint/no mintmark) drop in with the zincs. Thinking that the discriminator just burped, I put the penny on top of the Ryedale until all other coins had run through, then fed it back through. It dropped into the zinc pile again. I did it four more times, and each time it dropped into the zinc pile. So I fished another 1976 and a 1976-D out of my copper pile and dropped each one into the feeder one at a time, and the one 1976 still kept dropping into the zinc pile. So I got to wondering, were there any zincs that were accidentally minted after the Mint authorized the composition change in 1974, and if so, would this penny be worth much if it turns out to be zinc? I bought a really cheap (less than $10) handheld scale a while back on eBay, but the batteries are dead right now so I can't weigh the penny. Could I have stumbled across a pricey penny or is there some other explanation?
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JerrySpringer
Penny Hoarding Member
669 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2008 : 09:32:43
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| Drop it on a glass counter top or other hard surface, like granite. Compare the sound it makes to a known zinc and a known copper penny respectively. If it sounds like a zinc thud sound, you may just be America's next millionaire........... |
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NotABigDeal
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
3890 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2008 : 10:25:09
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Cut it in half....
Deal |
Live free or die.
Plain and simple.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your council or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
- Samuel Adams |
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n/a
deleted
23 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2008 : 10:30:46
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| I own a couple of 1976 pennies that look just like steel cents. A local coin dealer explained to me that a supermarket chain had a promotion going on back in the '70's called "a red cent sale" and they handed out pennies colored red (apparenting a zince plating was applied as a primer before the red coat was applied). The red coating wore off (or can be cleaned off with solvent) easily. The dealer said these 1976 pennies pop up from time to time and have no premium. This might be what you have come across. |
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jadedragon
Administrator
Canada
3788 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2008 : 10:53:51
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| I see pennies like that occasionally. Put a known zinc in as the referance coin tune the machine to accept known zincs but reject copper, then try your mistery penny. My guess is it will not accept as zinc either and is simply a penny with slightly non-standard metal composition... not enough copper to register as the same as the copper standard coin. While you are at it put the 1976 in as the referance coin and see what happensto some known zincs and coppers. Hope to see your results here |
“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” – George Bernard Shaw.
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Passive Income blog |
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n/a
deleted
51 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2008 : 17:05:22
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I posted a reply to another thread ( You must be logged in to see this link.) about this the other day. This thread is a better one to carry on the discussion though.
I had a '74 that compares as zinc and started to use it as my ref coin by mistake. Then I remembered the thread. It (the '74) consistently matches zinc & rejects copper. I suggested a Mr. Science experiment in the other thread, but haven't done it yet.
So it sounds like I need to look through my zincs for 74's AND 76's if I want to squeeze every last copper oz, eh??
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AgCollector
Penny Collector Member
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2008 : 20:17:19
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| Is the color or weight off at all? It could be "struck on a foreign planchet" which would make it valuable. |
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Nickelless
Administrator
USA
5580 Posts |
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n/a
deleted
51 Posts |
Posted - 09/07/2008 : 21:05:07
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I have at least 2 74's that look normal, weigh 3.1g, but compare like zinc. I'm betting that your 76 will weigh 3.1 as well, but if it weighs less you might have an easier shot at it being valuable. Not that I'm an expert or anywhere close, just that I haven't seen anything about pre 82 zincs.
Other than the density/volume thing that I mentioned in the other thread or maybe some kind of spectrometer, unless it weighs less than 3.1 I'm not sure how you verify the zinc/copper content. But if you could then maybe someone will think it's unusual enough to have a premium?? |
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AgCollector
Penny Collector Member
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 09/09/2008 : 08:17:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Nickelless
quote:
Originally posted by AgCollector
Is the color or weight off at all? It could be "struck on a foreign planchet" which would make it valuable.
The color is fine. I'll get fresh batteries for my scale in the next couple days and see how much the penny weighs.
By "struck on a foreign planchet" you mean this possibly being struck as a zinc rather than a copper?
If it is a zinc, any idea what it might be worth?
No, it wouldn't be zinc since that's way too early for the mint to have been experimenting with those planchets. Rather, the US Mint used to do extensive contract work for other countries to make their coins and occasionally some US coins would be struck on planchets intended for other countries. Here's a good article on the subject:
You must be logged in to see this link.
Excerpt: "Note first that no circulating coinage has been made in U.S. Mints for a foreign country since 1984. In most cases, foreign coinage planchets will be of different dimensions"
Quote from another article:
"Another planchet error, one that is highly sought by collectors, occurs when a planchet intended for a foreign nation’s coinage is struck by dies for a United States coin. This type of error was more common before 1984, when the U. S. Mint cut back its production of coins for other countries. It still may occur, however, as planchets are supplied to our mints by commercial vendors, and these vendors also service the mints of other countries. It’s not impossible for a shipment of planchets intended for one country to accidentally include those of another."
As to how you find out whether this is what you have, I'm not so sure.
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Nickelless
Administrator
USA
5580 Posts |
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n/a
deleted
51 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2008 : 07:51:16
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Why my 74's match as zinc has been stuck in my head, so I had to experiment. Disclaimer: I don't know my sphincter from a sinkhole when it comes to physics/math/numismatics.
Bottom line so far is that they are not a "traditional" zinc like post-82. Meaning that they are not copper-clad zinc. After all of my theorizing & experimenting I simply scratched the heck out of one and it doesn't show zinc below the surface like newer ones.
My speculation about density & water displacement should prove out since Cu is more dense than Zn by 1.78g/cm3 but the differences in a penny-sized object are too hard for me to accurately measure in the home-brew lab. After trying that & then doing the calculations with the different composition combinations of Cu/Zn, the different displaced volumes would be tenths and hundredths of a cc- too hard for my aging eyes to see and too hard to mark a small enough vessel. No luck there.
I balanced my eBay comparitors (CMI CC-40's) so I knew there was a test point on them that measured the voltage from the coin coils, so I sat down and manually measured some different coins I put in the sample area. I'll spare the details but my two 74's that match to zinc's are definitely between coppers & zincs, electrically. They don't measure quite as low as a post-82 zinc and not quite as high as a copper, but they are closer to zinc. I also measured 4 74's that match as copper and they measure almost as high as 3 pre-82's I tested, but not quite as high.
My guess is now that they must be a slightly different mix of Cu/Zn than the others, but I can't determine what the mix might be. Whether they were mint experiments, mistakes using foreign planchets, or just odd-ball alloy mistakes in regular planchets, is the resulting mystery. Unless one of the valuation gods of numismatics says otherwise in print somplace they seem to be worth either copper content value or 1 cent U.S. depending on your point of view!
AgCollector- see the other thread to follow a link to a Fed newsletter about the composition changes being authorized in 1974, but not having actually been put in place until 82. Perfect fuel for mint composition experiment speculation :-o |
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AgCollector
Penny Collector Member
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2008 : 08:09:05
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quote:
Originally posted by JD4x4
AgCollector- see the other thread to follow a link to a Fed newsletter about the composition changes being authorized in 1974, but not having actually been put in place until 82. Perfect fuel for mint composition experiment speculation :-o
Oh, they definitely experimented in 1974, but the two types of new experimental cents that I'm aware of are
(1) an all-aluminum cent (which of course is not what you have)
(2) copper plated steel
Now, I believe they were all dated 1974, so I doubt that a 1976 could be either, but- if you have any 1974's that are suspicious they could indeed be option (2). I don't know of a good way to check other than damaging it irreparably.
Note, however, that they are technically illegal to own so even if it turns out to be the beyond rare copper plated steel 1974 cent, it would be confiscated if you tried to sell it in the US. |
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SANITARIUM_INMATE
Penny Pincher Member
211 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2008 : 09:50:05
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| My only thought is that it is the composition of the copper that might be in question here. I have read that in some coins the mixure of the metals used in coinage is not mixed well. Is there any kind of streaking in the coin from metals not mixing well enough? if so this may throw a monkey wrench in your machine ( just a thought). If it does turn out to be this type of error which is a known error it still does not bring in much of a premium. |
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MRBONG411
Penny Sorter Member
USA
89 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2008 : 12:43:26
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I found a penny that was kinda off and had set it aside and forgot about it till I came across this thread.
It is a 1979 penny and looks kinda reddish. side by side with another penny the front and back look identical but it seems to be slightly thinner.
It weighs 2.8 grams and doing the drop test sounds identical.
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Edited by - MRBONG411 on 09/10/2008 12:44:33 |
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jadedragon
Administrator
Canada
3788 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2008 : 13:14:34
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| MRBONG411 it sounds like that coin is made from a thinner plancet (stamped from thinner material. Same weight as a 1980/81 Canadian Penny after the made it thinner to save copper. Could always sell it on ebay as a rarity with a good write up. The fact it's red is good as redder coins are considered better by most collectors. |
“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” – George Bernard Shaw.
Why Copper Bullion ~~~ Interview with Silver Bullion Producer Market Harmony
Passive Income blog |
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Nickelless
Administrator
USA
5580 Posts |
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Nickelless
Administrator
USA
5580 Posts |
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n/a
deleted
51 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2008 : 10:24:14
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After I found my couple of 74's and went through all the mental gymnastics like I referred to before.. I decided to put mine aside and I ordered a better scale (to 0.01g) and am going to try checking their specific gravity for fun & more mental gymnastics. I don't know just yet if that will tell me (us) anything but I need a better scale anyway. I figure that I should learn how to read SG since I'm starting to buy silver these days, but I'm not rich enough or ready yet to spend the $ for a scale that's good to 0.001g, which is what I understand is maybe good enough to discriminate between silver/lead, copper/nickel, and some others. Kind of a neat setup here that I'm going to try and duplicate:
You must be logged in to see this link. |
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Why does this 1976 keep dropping in my zinc pile?
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