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78 Posts |
 Posted - 10/01/2006 : 16:09:39
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There is talk here about both pennies and nickels...
I've been thinking about just buying nickels instead of doing the sorting (except pulling the copper pennies out of my change just for the heck of it)...
1. No sorting
2. No need to prove to a scrap dealer that they're sorted
3. Better excuse for getting them (you can say you're going to play nickel slot machines)
4. No need to return some of them
5. More compact and lighter than the same amount of pennies
6. Dont corrode, stay nice and shiny, and don't rub off on your hands as much
7. Likely to be legal tender longer
8. More diversified (about half the value in each of nickel and copper)
9. You can keep them in the mint boxes/rolls they come in, so no packaging requirements
10. Cupro-nickel is a widely-used alloy
11. Eaiser to get (no Brinks boxes of 99% Zinc)
Of course, they have disadvantages:
1. Less discount over spot
2. Likely to take longer to have premium over face value
3. Possibly more discount from spot because of alloy
4. They may release nickels in some other alloy, thus making you have to prove the content to a scrap buyer.
I don't have the time or energy to get, sort, and return pennies, but I could pick up a box of nickels every now and then.
For these reasons, I'd probly stick with nickels.
Two questions for those who might know:
1. Will scrap dealers buy cupro-nickel alloy for some specific price, or will they only buy them as contaminated copper or contaminated nickel? I know that there are uses for the alloy, but I don't know much about the scrap market.
2. Are there any other advantages/disadvantages to just buying nickels?
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2006 : 16:31:12
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Well, for point number 4.” They may release nickels in some other alloy, thus making you have to prove the content to a scrap buyer.” this wouldn’t be a problem with US nickels, since our nickels are not magnetic, unlike steel coins, so a magnet could differentiate between copper-nickel and other types. The dates on nickels would work too.
Also, if there is a switchover from copper-nickel to steel or some other metal, the numismatic value of obsolete coinage would come into play. Why deal with a scrap dealer when a coin collector will give you a better price?
If you are getting nickels, it has been suggested get them for the 75% copper content, not the nickel content.
One upside with hoarding nickels is there is always the chance of finding a 1942-1945 silver alloyed nickel in with the rest, or an old date Jefferson or even a buffalo nickel!
Per
You must be logged in to see this link.
a US nickel has a melt value of 0.068 cents as of 9/29/06
So a nickel has melt value as we speak. |
Edited by - pencilvanian on 10/01/2006 16:34:59 |
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2006 : 17:15:12
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FlyingMouse,
As to your question # 2, there are scrap buyers of scrap cupronickel now. The ones I found during a recent goolge search were located in China and India so I did not inquire into any price quotes from them. There was one I posted a while back in the scap forum who bought scrap coins. I'm sure there must be others out there. As long as there will be a demand for cuponickel for uses other than coins, I expect there will be scrap dealers who will want it. You can't make cupronickel without both copper and nickel. Both of which are getting harder to keep up with demand.
As fo disadvantage #3; U.S. nickels metal value are currently worth more than thier face value. However, unlike bronze pennies (pre-82s),that are not being made anymore, cuppronickel nickels are. I don't expect that will go on very much longer though. Then one would have to sort out the new steel ones.
You presented a good case for the hoarding of U.S. nickels here.
________________________
If you can conceive it and believe it, you can achieve it. -Napoleon Hill |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2006 : 17:30:03
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Footnote: I did the percentages
.05 face value for nickel
.068 melt value
Return on investment
36%
better than any mutual fund could offer, and with a guarantee Never to fall below the principal! |
Edited by - pencilvanian on 10/01/2006 17:31:24 |
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78 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2006 : 18:44:48
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| Is it known that the nickel will be replaced with steel? Two people above seem to be saying that, but do we know it won't be replaced with something else (zinc, for example?) |
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2006 : 18:53:05
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quote:
Originally posted by FlyingMoose
Is it known that the nickel will be replaced with steel? Two people above seem to be saying that, but do we know it won't be replaced with something else (zinc, for example?)
I don't think any of us know for sure what the U.S. Mint has in mind, but considering what Canada did and this artical pasted below, I would bet on steel nickels in our future. If they make a change it will be one that they will be able to stick with for a while. Zinc is getting too expensive to do that in my opinion.
Price of making money going up
Business First of Buffalo - 7:32 AM EDT Thursday
by Elizabeth Carey
Business First
Gibraltar Industries is keeping a close eye on the U.S. Mint, which is slated to end its fiscal year on Saturday, September 30th.
"This year, because of what happened with the metal to make the penny and nickel, they'll lose $40 to $50 million just making pennies and nickels," said Ken Houseknecht, vice-president of communications and investor relations for Gibraltar. Houseknecht estimates the U.S. penny costs 1.2 or 1.3 cents to make and the nickel 5.7 or 5.8 cents, due to rising metal prices.
Gibraltar has an interest in coin production because it rolls steel for the Canadian Mint. Steel processed at the metals plant on Military Road is used in Canadian pennies, nickels, dimes and quarters. It's only a small portion of Gibraltar's business, but it requires a lot of teamwork and intense processing to meet strict guidelines.
"A coin has got to be precise weight, thickness and hardness," Houseknecht said. "So that it works effectively in all applications, like a vending machine." Last year, Gibraltar was named supplier of the year by the Canadian Mint.
Company officials say the U.S. could save money by changing the composition of U.S. coins and using steel. That would require an act of Congress, but it wouldn't be the first time. In 1943, the U.S. made steel pennies during WWII. The current penny composition has been in place since 1982.
________________________
If you can conceive it and believe it, you can achieve it. -Napoleon Hill |
Edited by - Ardent Listener on 10/01/2006 18:57:20 |
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78 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2006 : 20:59:33
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One other thing... I've seen people say they can sort 1000 pennies per hour. That works out to maybe $3 per hour just for the sorting, which is less than minimum wage. I'd say pennies aren't worth it unless you have a machine.
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2006 : 21:35:07
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I can only speak for myself concerning sorting pennies, when I do it, it is a hobby with the potential of financial reward.
If I did it as a business, I might buy a machine, but I do it as a relaxing hobby and as a way to add to my coin collection through any wheat pennies I may find.
I think that worrying about how much it costs you per minimum wage to sort pennies takes the fun out of sorting.
We all do it in hopes of adding to our hoards, but if we concentrate too much on profit or loss or efficiency, we turn a fun pursuit into a dull, drab second job.
If it is on your time and it isn’t fun, it isn’t worth doing.
Don’t mean to sound harsh, just worrying too much about the cost of sorting is just worrying too much about what is supposed to be a fun hobby.
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Canadian_Nickle
Penny Hoarding Member
Canada
938 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2006 : 22:03:43
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| I sort 1 box of 2000 nickels in 1 hour. I get about $25 face in pure nickels from that, which is worth about $75 melt, so $50/hour. Not bad. |
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cakesea
Penny Sorter Member
51 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2006 : 22:48:43
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quote:
Originally posted by FlyingMoose
One other thing... I've seen people say they can sort 1000 pennies per hour. That works out to maybe $3 per hour just for the sorting, which is less than minimum wage. I'd say pennies aren't worth it unless you have a machine.
well thats if you get thirty percent of the pennies being copper. but you are also forgeting the the copper value is twice that of face value. so all you would need is $2.58 face to have more than minimum wage |
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Posted - 10/01/2006 : 23:36:36
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| But if you get twice face value from a scrap dealer, you're only earning a single times face value, since you had to pay that much for the pennies in the first place. In other words, if you give a scrap dealer 100 pennies and get $2 for them, and those pennies cost $1, then you earned $1 in however long it took you to sort those out. |
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143 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2006 : 03:49:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Canadian_Nickle
I sort 1 box of 2000 nickels in 1 hour. I get about $25 face in pure nickels from that, which is worth about $75 melt, so $50/hour. Not bad.
but what about the energy and time that is spent on transportation, acquiring, and re-rolling the coins; it takes me altogether 3 hours or more, to "process" each box of of (canadian) nickels
and then, i have to wonder, if we have to pay any tax, once any profitis realized after selling our nickels to the coin dealer or scrap dealer... |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2006 : 15:45:47
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I think we are missing the bigger picture here.
Now isn’t the time to cash out and sell our pennies or nickels for scrap.
While many predict doom and gloom for the economy I have heard it said,
“He predicted twelve of the last two recessions” or something like that.
We Eventually are headed for a crash, but it isn’t here yet and may not be here for several more years yet.
In the meantime, copper and nickel continue to rise in value, so holding off on selling, playing the waiting game, is our best bet.
Besides, why sell to scrap dealers when coin collectors and speculators will give a better price?
During the big silver run up in the sixties, speculators began buying silver small change in hopes of making a killing. The same may happen for nickels and pennies.
Selling for scrap is one option, but not THE only option.
A silver dime has a melt value of eighty cents, but a collectable value of a dollar or more. Why not cash in on the collectable value instead of the melt? |
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81 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2006 : 16:23:33
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i dont think i could get much for lets say a 1974 penny that's been circulated more than the community whore in terms of collectable value.
i think most pennies arent worth more than their metal value. unless you get REALLY nice examples. i just dont see them becoming the next wheat pennies. |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2006 : 17:08:05
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I was thinking more along the lines of speculators buying our pennies and nickels rather than selling them to the scrap dealer.
You never know, people will buy anything for speculation's sake, look at the beanie baby craze a few years back. |
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103 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2006 : 18:46:49
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quote:
Originally posted by ballcopper
quote:
Originally posted by Canadian_Nickle
I sort 1 box of 2000 nickels in 1 hour. I get about $25 face in pure nickels from that, which is worth about $75 melt, so $50/hour. Not bad.
but what about the energy and time that is spent on transportation, acquiring, and re-rolling the coins; it takes me altogether 3 hours or more, to "process" each box of of (canadian) nickels
and then, i have to wonder, if we have to pay any tax, once any profitis realized after selling our nickels to the coin dealer or scrap dealer...
I'll worry about the taxes when I can see a profit.
All communication presented to this forum is private commerce by this forum user/member. All terms of private commerce are as this forum user/member understands it. Member F.D.I.C. Substantial penalty for early withdraw. |
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103 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2006 : 18:56:04
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quote:
Originally posted by pencilvanian
I think we are missing the bigger picture here.
Now isn’t the time to cash out and sell our pennies or nickels for scrap.
While many predict doom and gloom for the economy I have heard it said,
“He predicted twelve of the last two recessions” or something like that.
We Eventually are headed for a crash, but it isn’t here yet and may not be here for several more years yet.
In the meantime, copper and nickel continue to rise in value, so holding off on selling, playing the waiting game, is our best bet.
Besides, why sell to scrap dealers when coin collectors and speculators will give a better price?
During the big silver run up in the sixties, speculators began buying silver small change in hopes of making a killing. The same may happen for nickels and pennies.
Selling for scrap is one option, but not THE only option.
A silver dime has a melt value of eighty cents, but a collectable value of a dollar or more. Why not cash in on the collectable value instead of the melt?
Your are correct about one thing, this is a long term thing we are involved with here no matter if you are going for pennies or nickels. A recession will bring down metal prices. But recessions don't last forever. China and India alone are going to continue to grow. In a few years they will be begging for our coins. Not to collect but to melt. Even with increased mining of the metals. I heard one mining offical talking on the tube the other day. He said that mining companies where out there buying up each others known reserves because it was so much easier to do than go out and find new ones.
All communication presented to this forum is private commerce by this forum user/member. All terms of private commerce are as this forum user/member understands it. Member F.D.I.C. Substantial penalty for early withdraw. |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2006 : 19:16:49
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quote:
Your are correct about one thing, this is a long term thing we are involved with here no matter if you are going for pennies or nickels. A recession will bring down metal prices. But recessions don't last forever. China and India alone are going to continue to grow. In a few years they will be begging for our coins. Not to collect but to melt. Even with increased mining of the metals. I heard one mining offical talking on the tube the other day. He said that mining companies where out there buying up each others known reserves because it was so much easier to do than go out and find new ones.
You are right, Copperhead, this is long term investing, but unlike some investments, pennies and nickels will always be worth face value, can’t say the same with stocks.
A recession in the US won’t necessarily mean recession in Asia or Europe, so demand for metals may flatten out or increase some. China is sitting on about one Trillion in US dollars, and they are looking to do something with that money, like internal improvements, more power plants, roads, oil storage facilities and the like. All that building means more demand for metals even if the US economy slows.
Old copper-nickel coins from Europe and now the Philippines are being bought up and shipped to China to feed its hunger for metals. It is only a matter of time before buyers start advertising in US newspapers, TV or over the web they ‘re buying coins.
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Frugi
Administrator
USA
627 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2006 : 19:50:18
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Bummer!!!!!!!!!!!
Last week I spoke to a local coin dealer who said he would sell me 100 rolls of canadian nickels that he has had since 1980. I was going to pick them up today from him at $0.05 USD a piece ($2.00) per roll. I drove the 24 miles to his shop, only to find out that he doesnt want to sell them anymore---it seems he found a website that talks about hoarding copper (and other metals)[nickel]. He said he didnt know that canadian nickels were pure nickel before 1981.--He said I should be ashamed of myself for trying to get them at .05 each, since nickel was at $15.00 a pound. He said he will no longer do business with me. I asked him what site he saw --he told me to get lost!!!
I wonder what site he found??? :-)
This normally wouldnt bother me --I am a pretty easy going person, but I have bought all the canadian nickels from all the local dealers in my area and there is no more to buy without having to drive far to get them (100 miles).
Real Eyes Realize Real Lies |
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 10/13/2006 : 20:02:24
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Well tell him that on this site we believe that a deal is a deal and a man is as good as his word. Same on him.
________________________
If you can conceive it and believe it, you can achieve it. -Napoleon Hill |
Edited by - Ardent Listener on 10/13/2006 20:03:09 |
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A case for nickels?
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