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swusc
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
553 Posts |
 Posted - 07/09/2008 : 19:59:05
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quote:
Originally posted by starwarsgeek171
"It would take more energy to remove the coal than could ever be extracted from the coal... therefore it will NEVER be economical. Ditto with oil shales... ditto with corn-based ethanol."
Unfortunately not many people understand this.
I know nothing about coal and oil shales. The corn based ethanol for oil replace was just stupid. It has to be up there in the most stupid things every done.
I think we get like 1 gallon of ethanol for every 0.7 gallons of oil based energy. This says nothing for the fact they aren't 1 to 1 in energy. This says nothing for the fact we consumed a lot of time and land to do it. Seems like someone wasn't thinking and it isn't profitable. Well it wasn't profitable to until the government through in some tax dollars/ and laws forcing demand. Lets see now we have to pay double for the gas... at the gas station and when we buy food.
I really don't think their are a lot of economical energy replacements. We just need to get use to $4 gas and stop fussing. If we make the government make changes, then we just end up paying more.
If someone can make solar, wind, coal, oil shales, seaweed, trash, or whatever work, then they will take it to market. Until then we are just screwed. Don't think something wont get discovered because their wasn't some government program. If someone can make a buck, then they will do it.
-SWUSC |
`Everybody is ignorant. Only on different subjects.' Will Rogers
"This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the "hidden" confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists' antagonism toward the gold standard." Alan Greenspan, 1966. |
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redneck
1000+ Penny Miser Member
1273 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2008 : 00:47:27
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quote:
I really don't think their are a lot of economical energy replacements.
Really...???
quote:
We just need to get use to $4 gas and stop fussing.
I personally will never get used to being SCREWED and LIED to.
I will never "stop fussing" or as you say "get use to it".
quote:
Don't think something wont get discovered because their wasn't some government program.
Something was discovered without a government program and then rediscovered with a government program and then promptly shelved again.
quote:
If someone can make a buck, then they will do it.
People in power or with connections to power do not like competition.
quote:
Originally posted by starwarsgeek171
"It would take more energy to remove the coal than could ever be extracted from the coal... therefore it will NEVER be economical. Ditto with oil shales... ditto with corn-based ethanol."
Unfortunately not many people understand this.
If that statement were true it wouldn't be economical to process crude oil either. Both processes use PYROLYSIS to make the end products.
Pyrolysis is the heating of oil to crack and evaporate the chemical compounds and then condense them on plates (cracker tower).
Coal,oil shales and biomass are treated in the same way.
Producer gas or what is commonly called wood gas is made with biomass (wood gas is a vapor not a liquid) and was used for many years for gas street lights,homes, businesses and later to produce electricity.
On-board gasifiers produced fuel for 1 MILLION cars and trucks in Europe in during WW2.
Also certain types of biomass can be pressed to extract oil.
Peanut oil is the fuel that Rudolph Diesel first ran in his engine that bears his name in 1900's World Fair.
Industrial Hemp
The Hemp plant has over 10,000 known uses,food,fuel,clothing and textiles,cosmetics,paints and cleaners,paper,building materials and health care products.
AS you can see,this plant is to dangerous to to many with private interests.
Do your own research on this vile evil plant,and other renewable non polluting biomass energy alternatives.
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Excerpt;
Popular Mechanics, in February 1937, predicted hemp would be the world's first "Billion Dollar Crop" that would support thousands of jobs and provide a vast array of consumer products from dynamite to plastics. It is estimated as of 2000 that the industry would be 500 billion to a trillion dollar industry if allowed to be cultivated. It is very peculiar that at the same time The Marijuana Tax of 1937 act was passed making farming the plant unfeasible, Dupont’s Patent for making plastic out of crude oil & coal was just given and the sulfate process in making paper out of wood. It was estimated in the 1930’s by Dupont that the patented sulfate process part of their business would be 80% of there business for the next 50 years. Unfortunately they would have to cut down oxygen producing trees to do so.
In the 1930's, hemp was a major threat to Secretary Mellon's friends and business associates, especially Randolph Hearst with his wood paper industry and Lammont DuPont with his petrochemical and synthetic fiber conglomerates. After all, hemp farmers wouldn't need DuPont's chemicals to grow their hemp because the crop is self-sufficient. The hemp-based ethanol fuel that was mentioned in the Popular Mechanics' article probably didn't sit too well with the oil companies of the time either. They also couldn't have been too thrilled to learn that this same plant produced high-strength plastics without a petroleum base. The hemp-based plastics developed at the time were stronger and lighter than steel, which we can imagine wasn't the best news for the steel industry. Furthermore the lumber industry had a stake in the future of hemp.
Henry Ford of Ford Motor Company had a huge biomass conversation plant at Iron Mountain Michigan. He made plastics from wheat straw, hemp and sisal. He also could produce methanol, charcoal, char, pitch, ethyl-acetate, & creosote all building blocks for the many chemical compounds that had been derived by Rockefeller for more 30 years through refining crude oil. Since biomass has no sulfur they do not produce nearly the pollution that crude oil does in refining. Pyrolysis is the method Henry Ford biomas refinery plant used which is identical to the process Rockefellers Standard Oil used in refining crude oil. In a 1941 Popular Mechanics Magazine published picture of a car made almost entirely of hemp was published. So to say that hemp was outlawed because of its narcotic effect is insulting to any average intelligent educated human. It’s legalization threatens the oil companies, timber industries, chemical refinery companies (textile), energy companies and pharmaceutical companies just to name a few. We all know the market capitol these companies hold and their influence on the US Government.
(end)
A short video.
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Peak oil...??? What a joke...!!!
Just more manipulation by the money changers.
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lilyrdape
Penny Pincher Member
USA
152 Posts |
Posted - 07/10/2008 : 00:55:12
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| a billion dollar crop in 1937...that would be alot more then that today :P lol |
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swusc
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
553 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2008 : 14:50:49
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so all of these ways that make sense are just being hidden by the government? So all the other people in the world just don't want to make a profit because the u.s.a is against it?
The U.S. government has a lot of power, but I don't think they are that powerful. A lot of people around the world don't care what the US thinks.
what are these economical energy replacements? Saying really? makes me think you just don't like the comment but don't have a hard answer to it.
Just because something goes through the same process doesn't mean it cost the same per unit of energy. I have no idea if using coal as a oil replacement makes sense. I do know that just because the two might use exact process doesn't mean both will work economical. There is more to production cost than refining plus the energy yields matter as well. I know enough organic chemistry to know that much.
Wood gas is a good replacement? 1000 kg of wood combustible matter has been found to substitute 365 litres of petrol during real transportation.
Ok so we can make 2200ish pounds of wood into 91 gallons of gas. Any idea on the cost to move the wood, convert it into wood gas, and get it to market? Is the car going to do all that from the raw wood? If you assume 10 pounds per cubic foot, then you are looking at around 29 cubic feet of wood for a 12 gallon tank of gas. That is 5x6 foot wood tank. That is a lot of wood! Wood doesn't grow that fast either. I just don't think we have enough wood to replace oil. There is a reason we moved away from using wood.
Plus were are we going to get the 2200 pounds of wood cheap enough that all the other production cost let us sell if for less than 91 gallons of gas? 91 gallons of gas would be $360 ? Wood must be pretty cheap.
-SWUSC
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`Everybody is ignorant. Only on different subjects.' Will Rogers
"This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the "hidden" confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists' antagonism toward the gold standard." Alan Greenspan, 1966. |
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redneck
1000+ Penny Miser Member
1273 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2008 : 21:35:01
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The U.S. government and other governments around the world help to keep a lid on it.
Oil is power,oil is money and deep pockets can do a lot.
Your right a lot of people around the world don't care what the U.S. thinks.
On our list of "Axises of Evil" are Iran and Venezuela.They charge their own people for gasoline $0.28 &$0.12 respectably,though the government subsidizes them to a degree. They won't bend to the big boys to fall in line so there treated as enemies with sanctions ,trade barriers and threat of war.
Me saying "Really...?" was not meant as a poke at you personally but rather to provoke "thought".
The hard answer you were referring to would be Hemp,Sugarcane,Algae, related biomass and other technologies.
Hemp would probably be better for the U.S.A. because of its tolerance to grow in varying climates.(read info on previous post)A combination of all would be best.
Brazil uses Sugarcane.
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Although it seems Brazil made a deal with the big boys,you know the ones with deep pockets.
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Excerpts;
That process has already started. In April, an associated business of Santelisa announced it had formed a 50-50 joint venture with BP in a deal worth as much as $1bn (£500m). The following day, Santelisa's main rival bought Exxon Mobil's network of filling stations in Brazil.
Goldman Sachs, the US investment bank, has recently bought a 16% stake in Santelisa and there is talk of a stockmarket listing - not only in São Paulo but also in New York.
The arrival of the big corporations such as BP and Goldman Sachs suggests that ethanol from sugar cane is regarded as a potential moneyspinner and Friends of the Earth wants to know whether they will be a force for good or ill.
"Where there is big money," says Menezes, "there are big risks."
(end)
Cost of energy.
You are correct, there are different costs per unit of energy as well as BTU values.With oil at $140 a barrel a lot of processes become economical energy replacements.
Germany used Coal liquefaction in WW2 to fuel its armed forces.
Estonia, China and Brazil have well-established oil shale industries; and Germany, Israel and Russia also have some industrial production.
Wood gas
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I mentioned Wood gas as a example of what is possible when using biomass as a energy alternative.
Example;
Hemp could used to produce Ethanol for gas engines and Hemp oil for diesel and the unusable by-products made into Wood gas - Carbon Monoxide,Hydrogen and Methane thru Pyrolysis .Then burned to produce electricity like they do with the Bagasse from Sugarcane in Brazil.
If you were to take all the alternative fuel sources and lump them together our energy dependence on crude oil would be over.Not to mention all the positive effects. Small family farms,local processing centers and other cottage industries would spring up overnight helping to provide jobs.The unofficial unemployment rate is 12% and climbing.
Here's a couple more;
Air Car
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Water electric car
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Having said all this, the powers to be will not go away without a fight.There's way to much oil out there to throw the towel in yet.
Peak oil...??? What a joke...!!!
Just more manipulation by the money changers.
Good job looking up the info. on Wood gas thats what I meant by provoking thought... 
Check out this site, I think you'll be surprised.
(click on research, read page, then click on the subcategories on the left side - lots and lots to read and comprehend)
I guarantee you'll never look at things the same way again.
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swusc
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
553 Posts |
Posted - 07/13/2008 : 21:20:52
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Well I would love to see a lot of those job in the U.S. I would love to see us dump foreign oil if we can do it cheaper. Money is power, but the money is leaving the country.
-SWUSC |
`Everybody is ignorant. Only on different subjects.' Will Rogers
"This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the "hidden" confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists' antagonism toward the gold standard." Alan Greenspan, 1966. |
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Interesting guy, opposing peak oil (kinda)
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