| Author |
 Topic  |
|
n/a
deleted
13 Posts |
 Posted - 08/19/2006 : 14:47:32
|
Hey guys,
New member here, currently with bullion investments that are almost exclusively gold and silver. I now see the value of lower denomination base metal coins, and have begun some modest efforts at sorting and hoarding pennies and nickels with the help of my daughters (young eyes!).
Was wondering about the relative investment potential of US cupro-nickel coins versus almost pure coins like the pre-82 Canadian nickels or copper pennies. For the sake of discussion, say nickel and copper have the same investment potential going forward.
My main question is, would a smelter not pay as much for cupro-nickel since it consists of two elements instead of one, i.e. you would not get the full melt value of both nickel and copper portions because of the cost and complexity of separating the metals?
Or, does cupro-nickel alloy have its own fair melt value as a desirable, useful metal?
This would only matter if one decided to melt the coins to extract a metal investment. Might make sense, depend on what you're trying to trade up to. However, in a shtf scenerio, intact coins would likely be most useful as real money for routine trading anyway. I'm in no big hurry to run off and melt coins.
Thanks,
boomhauer
|
|
|
Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2006 : 16:05:45
|
Cupronickel
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Cupronickel is an alloy of copper, nickel and stengthening impurities, such as iron and manganese.
Cupronickel does not corrode in seawater, because its electronegativity is adjusted to be neutral with regard to seawater. Because of this it is used for marine hardware, and sometimes for the propellers, crankshafts and hulls of premium tugboats, fishing boats and other working boats.
The most ubiquitous use, from the point of view of the average person, is that most of the silver-coloured modern circulation coins are cupronickel. A typical mix is 75% copper, 25% nickel, and a trace amount of manganese. In the past true silver coins were debased with cupronickel.
It is used in thermocouples, and a 55% copper/45% nickel alloy is used to make very accurate resistors.
Monel metal is a copper-nickel alloy, containing up to 65% nickel.
See also bronze (copper alloyed with tin), brass (copper alloyed with zinc), and nickel silver (another group of copper-nickel alloys).
[edit]
History
Cupronickel coin of king Pantaleon c. 170 BCE.
Obv: Bust of Dionysos with a wreath of leaves.
Rev: Panther with a small bell around the neck, touching a vine with the left leg. Greek legend: BASILEOS PANTALEONTOS "King Pantaleon".The cupronickel alloy technology has been known by the Chinese since the 3rd century BCE under the name "White copper" (some weapons from the Warring States Period were in copper-nickel alloy 1).
The Greco-Bactrian kings Agathocles and Pantaleon were the first in the world to issue copper-nickel (75/25 ratio) coins 2 around 170 BCE, suggesting that exchanges of the metallic alloy, or possibly exchanges of technicians, were happening at the time between China and the region of Bactria. The practice of exporting Chinese metals, in particular iron, for trade is attested around that period.
The cupro-nickel technology was not used again in coinage until the 19th century. Has been used in quarters and dimes in all made after 1965.
Beginning around the turn of the 20th century, bullet jackets were commonly made from this material. It was soon replaced with gilding metal to reduce metal fouling in the bore.
[edit]
External links
National Pollutant Inventory - Copper and compounds fact sheet
National Pollutant Inventory - Nickel and compounds fact sheet
1 Ancient Chinese weapons & A halberd of copper-nickel alloy, from the Warring States Period.
2 Copper-Nickel coinage in Greco-Bactria.
Retrieved from "You must be logged in to see this link."
Categories: Nickel alloys | Copper alloys | Coins
I think in terms of U.S. nickels as being cupronickel because that is what they really are. If and when I sell my nickels for scrap that is what they would most likely be used for. It only makes sense, if you have a metal that is already ready to go, why alter it to something else? As you can see, cupronickel has its own value.
________________________
If you can conceive it and believe it, you can achieve it. -Napoleon Hill |
 |
|
|
Canadian_Nickle
Penny Hoarding Member
Canada
938 Posts |
Posted - 08/19/2006 : 17:26:33
|
| I only hoard the .999NI coins now. I was hoarding both (25/75 CuNi and .999) until I realizaed that I could get more .999ni ones by trading in my 25/75CuNi's. I think the ,999 is always a better thing to hold, because it is easier to use for stuff like making stainless steel, and also the price is easier to track. |
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
13 Posts |
Posted - 08/20/2006 : 14:45:02
|
Thanks for your replies.
My current preference would also be towards pure nickel. Its flexibility to create other alloys is a plus. A more pure play, in general.
Most of the scrap metal sites refererence purchase prices for pure nickel, 90/10, 80/20 and 70/30 - but not 75/25, at least not yet.
In the event of a currency crisis, the rules will change. In the US, the Jefferson nickel, by virtue of its familiarity, may be more desirable than other international coins.
Thanks for all the info. Planning a trip to the bank to trade some paper for real money. |
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
9 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2006 : 03:06:59
|
Interesting question I had been wondering that myself.
Proud Sponsor of the American Military-Industrial Complex |
|
|
|
Canadian_Nickle
Penny Hoarding Member
Canada
938 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2006 : 14:27:03
|
| I think it mostly comes down to where you live. If you live in Canada, you should collect the .999 nickels, because they are easy to come by in bank boxes still (~20%) but if you're in the US, you should be buying boxes of the CuNi nickels and just hoarding them without sorting - you don't need to sort at all, and you're already making money on them. |
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
13 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2006 : 14:58:36
|
A trip to the bank is imminent. Since I have a business account, "nickels for marketing materials" sounds like a good ruse to not raise suspicion or scrutiny.
Truth be told, I expect silver to be the superior performer in the short/medium term, so most of my new investment money would go to silver. Loose change pickings and at least a box of nickels (I assume that a box is $100) will start my base metal hoard for now. Already have a fair amount of pennies, although probably nothing like some here.
Speaking of silver, 90% dimes should prove to be very liquid, but I could see them going for $10 each sometime in the next couple years. Maybe one silver dime will still a loaf of bread then, who knows, but it wouldn't hurt to have some copper pennies and nickels around for extra liquidity and ease of transaction.
The revolution will not be televised... |
|
|
|
Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2006 : 16:45:19
|
You are hardcore boomhauer. Like Candian Nickel says, If you can get the 100% Canadian nickels out of circulation then do so. If you are in the U.S. then you will have to mostly go for the cuponickels. When I get a 100% Canadian nickels out of circulation I grab them. I still might meet someone at the boarder some night and trade some FRNs for a box of 100%s. I can't bring myself to trade my silver even if I could turn around and re-buy it back the same day.
My nickel hoard is both a speculation in the cupro-nickel market and a cash reserve incase SHTF and I need to use them as a measure of trade.
________________________
If you can conceive it and believe it, you can achieve it. -Napoleon Hill |
|
|
|
Canadian_Nickle
Penny Hoarding Member
Canada
938 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2006 : 18:30:05
|
| Yeah, the markets for both nickel and silver are so volatile now that it's hard to work out a fair trade. For now, fiat currency is still a better medum for a direct buy. |
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
13 Posts |
Posted - 08/21/2006 : 20:56:47
|
Thanks for the comebacks. Hardcore? I haven't even started on the gunsafe, lead hoard, Dillon press and my affinity for .45 cal projectiles.
Yeah, we still deal almost exclusively in FRNs around here. My daughters get to keep the zinc pennies they sort (daddy gets the copper ones), but I see them using those zincs to buy silver and perhaps some wheaties. Wheats cost 5 cents at the local coin shop, and the girls love when they find them in our penny bucket. I think the wheats are interesting because they are easily identifiable, and perhaps semi-numismatic. Maybe longer term investment at 5 cents each, or sometimes 4 cents if purchased in bag quantities.
PS. $10 for a silver dime would occur at $140/ounce silver - the inflation adjusted price of the 1980 high. Only this time, there's no silver in the treasury and very limited mining supply...
-------------------------------
The revolution will not be televised... |
Edited by - n/a on 08/21/2006 22:02:24 |
|
|
|
Frugi
Administrator
USA
627 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2006 : 14:08:35
|
| Listen up---I have talked with more than a few scrap dealers who buy copper cents and canadian Ni nickels from me and they all agree the worst thing to have in your nickel is COPPER. If your nickel contains even a small portion of copper it is considered contaminated and therefore sells at a much lower scrap price. If tips are given or qoutes are given on saving/scrapping US nickels one must cosider the true melt value of jefferson nickels will be less than one might think since the cost of recovery outweighs the benefits of saving US nickels for the nickel/copper content. However, in the opposite case selling copper that has nickel in it is not as bad. So in conclusion if copper rises high enough US nickels could be sold for strictly there weight in copper--which is 75% of total coin weight. If one is going to save US nickels just know that they are not as liquid as canadian Ni nickels pre-1981 which average out at above 94% Ni. |
|
|
|
pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2006 : 22:42:29
|
[quote]Originally posted by Ardent Listener
Cupronickel
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Cupronickel is an alloy of copper, nickel and stengthening impurities, such as iron and manganese.
Cupronickel does not corrode in seawater, because its electronegativity is adjusted to be neutral with regard to seawater. Because of this it is used for marine hardware, and sometimes for the propellers, crankshafts and hulls of premium tugboats, fishing boats and other working boats.
It seems that since copper-nickel alloy is useful for boating, their might someday be a demand for our nickels for boat builders/marinas.
It is cheaper to recycle aluminum than it is to dig alumina ore out of the ground and turn it into new aluminum. Perhaps it would be cheaper to melt down nickels for boating purposes than to dig the metals out of the ground, mix them to the right consistency, ship them from the foundry, etc. |
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
143 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2006 : 12:48:12
|
quote:
Originally posted by Frugi
Listen up---I have talked with more than a few scrap dealers who buy copper cents and canadian Ni nickels from me and they all agree the worst thing to have in your nickel is COPPER. If your nickel contains even a small portion of copper it is considered contaminated and therefore sells at a much lower scrap price. If tips are given or qoutes are given on saving/scrapping US nickels one must cosider the true melt value of jefferson nickels will be less than one might think since the cost of recovery outweighs the benefits of saving US nickels for the nickel/copper content. However, in the opposite case selling copper that has nickel in it is not as bad. So in conclusion if copper rises high enough US nickels could be sold for strictly there weight in copper--which is 75% of total coin weight. If one is going to save US nickels just know that they are not as liquid as canadian Ni nickels pre-1981 which average out at above 94% Ni.
for those who plan to hoard US nickels, this is very helpful information, thank you, Frugi;
i am curious, though, how you come up with the 94%? thank you |
|
|
|
Frugi
Administrator
USA
627 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2006 : 18:35:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by ballcopper
quote:
Originally posted by Frugi
Listen up---I have talked with more than a few scrap dealers who buy copper cents and canadian Ni nickels from me and they all agree the worst thing to have in your nickel is COPPER. If your nickel contains even a small portion of copper it is considered contaminated and therefore sells at a much lower scrap price. If tips are given or qoutes are given on saving/scrapping US nickels one must cosider the true melt value of jefferson nickels will be less than one might think since the cost of recovery outweighs the benefits of saving US nickels for the nickel/copper content. However, in the opposite case selling copper that has nickel in it is not as bad. So in conclusion if copper rises high enough US nickels could be sold for strictly there weight in copper--which is 75% of total coin weight. If one is going to save US nickels just know that they are not as liquid as canadian Ni nickels pre-1981 which average out at above 94% Ni.
for those who plan to hoard US nickels, this is very helpful information, thank you, Frugi;
i am curious, though, how you come up with the 94%? thank you
Real Eyes Realize Real Lies |
|
|
|
Frugi
Administrator
USA
627 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2006 : 18:39:33
|
You must be logged in to see this link. on his site he did random testing of canadian nickel nickels and i think other canadian nickel coinage--I havent been to his site in awhile, but if i remember correctly most of the coins tested out at less than what the canadian mint reported on its website.
I may be wrong, and correct me if i am, but 94% was just an average of purity.
Real Eyes Realize Real Lies |
Edited by - Frugi on 10/02/2006 18:54:11 |
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
103 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2006 : 18:44:33
|
You can't trust any goverment anymore.
All communication presented to this forum is private commerce by this forum user/member. All terms of private commerce are as this forum user/member understands it. Member F.D.I.C. Substantial penalty for early withdraw. |
|
|
|
pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2006 : 19:50:39
|
quote:
Originally posted by Frugi
Listen up---I have talked with more than a few scrap dealers who buy copper cents and canadian Ni nickels from me and they all agree the worst thing to have in your nickel is COPPER. If your nickel contains even a small portion of copper it is considered contaminated and therefore sells at a much lower scrap price. If tips are given or qoutes are given on saving/scrapping US nickels one must cosider the true melt value of jefferson nickels will be less than one might think since the cost of recovery outweighs the benefits of saving US nickels for the nickel/copper content. However, in the opposite case selling copper that has nickel in it is not as bad. So in conclusion if copper rises high enough US nickels could be sold for strictly there weight in copper--which is 75% of total coin weight. If one is going to save US nickels just know that they are not as liquid as canadian Ni nickels pre-1981 which average out at above 94% Ni.
Link from Nickel industry website. They don’t seem to indicate that 75/25 cupronickel is impossible to deal with.
Maybe the scrap dealers are dealing with smelters who don’t want to bother with US Nickels.
You must be logged in to see this link.
Copper-based alloys (1% primary nickel use)
Similar considerations apply as to nickel-based alloys but copper-based nickel alloys are fewer, less complex and easier to segregate. In the commonly used alloys -- cupronickel 90/10 and 75/25, nickel silver, Monel -- it is feasible to make the alloys 100% out of recycled secondary alloy provided the material is clean and well segregated.
Mixed copper-based nickel containing scrap can be remelted using primary metal additions to adjust the chemistry. Some nickel-containing copper-based alloys are used for special blends for certain nickel- and copper-containing steel grades. Some may become mixed with copper and be used as a raw material for general purpose brass production.
|
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
103 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2006 : 20:03:07
|
Copper and nickel sometimes comes out of the same mine!
You must be logged in to see this link.
All communication presented to this forum is private commerce by this forum user/member. All terms of private commerce are as this forum user/member understands it. Member F.D.I.C. Substantial penalty for early withdraw. |
Edited by - n/a on 10/02/2006 20:04:11 |
|
|
|
Canadian_Nickle
Penny Hoarding Member
Canada
938 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2006 : 21:36:21
|
| That site that tested the nickels and found 94% did surface tests with an electronic condutivity meter. Tranished nickels may read at lower than their actual content in such a test - he says so right on the page. |
|
|
|
pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2006 : 23:24:00
|
Hey wait!
Consider this!
The US Mint has a buyback program to accept beat up and mangled coins from the public, they give you coin for coin, or new nickel for old nickel.
The US Mint in turn sells the beat up and mangled nickels to metal fabricators to turn them into new cupronickel sheets to turn into new nickels.
The trick is to find out who these metal fabricators are and sell nickels to them directly.
Maybe the Mint will provide the answer if asked.
The mint doesn’t melt their own metal anymore, they outsourced the job, we just have to figure out who is doing the melting.
If the buyers won’t buy since nickels are still in spendable shape, we ourselves can intentionally mangle the coins and sell them for scrap. Of course, it is best to wait for the price to go up before selling, but getting the names of the buyers is something we can do now. |
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
103 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2006 : 10:32:25
|
quote:
Originally posted by pencilvanian
Hey wait!
Consider this!
The US Mint has a buyback program to accept beat up and mangled coins from the public, they give you coin for coin, or new nickel for old nickel.
The US Mint in turn sells the beat up and mangled nickels to metal fabricators to turn them into new cupronickel sheets to turn into new nickels.
The trick is to find out who these metal fabricators are and sell nickels to them directly.
Maybe the Mint will provide the answer if asked.
The mint doesn’t melt their own metal anymore, they outsourced the job, we just have to figure out who is doing the melting.
If the buyers won’t buy since nickels are still in spendable shape, we ourselves can intentionally mangle the coins and sell them for scrap. Of course, it is best to wait for the price to go up before selling, but getting the names of the buyers is something we can do now.
I'm working on my coin mangling machine today.
All communication presented to this forum is private commerce by this forum user/member. All terms of private commerce are as this forum user/member understands it. Member F.D.I.C. Substantial penalty for early withdraw. |
|
|
|
Frugi
Administrator
USA
627 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2006 : 16:46:01
|
I might be wrong but I think on the mint website it states that they will buy mangled coins back at their metal value.--but only mangled coins---it might be hard to convince the FED that you are sending them 200 lbs of mangled coins---they might start asking questions.
Real Eyes Realize Real Lies |
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
143 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2006 : 20:01:12
|
i am going to wait a few years, let the metal prices stabilize in a high plateau, and do this, either through ebay, or local buy and sell:
quote:
Originally posted by pencilvanian
Don’t melt your coins yet!
Some outfit called First Federal Coin Corporation is selling wheat pennies to the gullible and uninformed for about 22 cents each
Quote from advertisement
?U. S. Government to Abolish the Lincoln Penny?FOREVER?
For nearly 100 years, the Lincoln Cent has been a familiar everyday coin. But that may become history if recent legislation such as The Legal Tender Modernization Act (HR2528) is enacted, eliminating the one-cent coin forever.?
The ad offers a half pound of wheat pennies for a mere $19.95, of course a half pound of pennies is 74 Wheats. About 27 cents each for what dealers sell for about 5-10 cents each.
They also offer three whole pounds of pennies for $99 plus shipping and handling.
Three pounds works out to 444 Wheat pennies, or 22 1/2 cents each
This rip off, er, fine advertisement got me thinking, why not make up an offer for the papers to SELL our nickels to speculators instead of dealing with scrap dealers?
My sample of the advertisement
WORLD WIDE COIN CONVERSION UNDERWAY!
FIRST, SOUTH AMERICA, THEN EUROPE, NOW ASIA, WILL AMERICA BE THE NEXT COUNTRY TO CHANGE ITS CHANGE?
For decades, nations of the world have produced their coins from an alloy known as cupronickel, a combination of copper and nickel. However, as the price of these strategic metals has increased over the years, more and more nations are changing the metal content of their coins to aluminum or steel. The U. S. Mint is paying .068 cents to make a five cent coin. It is only a matter of time before the U. S. Mint is forced to alter the metal content of the Jefferson Nickel.
FACT: The U. S. Mint stopped making silver coins for circulation when the price of silver went up.
FACT: The U. S. Mint stopped making copper cents for circulation when the price of copper went up. Pennies are now copper plated zinc.
FACT: Many nations of the world use either steel or aluminum for their five cent coins.
America simply can’t afford to keep making five cent coins out of cupronickel.
Now is the time to profit from this run up in metal prices.
We are offering one pound of cupronickel Jefferson Nickels for $14.50 plus shipping and handling.
Profit from this once in a lifetime opportunity as prices of copper and nickel increase, causing your nickel collection to increase in value.
Quantities are limited.
Order today, they may all be sold tomorrow!
From
SKIP-TOWN INDUSTRIES
1 Rana way
Trynfindus NV
Note: I have seen offers of Susan B Anthony dollars for sale for 3 for $19.95, even though the coins best value is $2.00 each.
AT $14.50 a pound, we are talking $4.55 face value, or $9.95 profit.
in other words, i am going to be my own coin dealer |
|
|
|
pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2006 : 15:51:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by Copperhead
You can't trust any goverment anymore.
You can’t trust any government EVER!
That is the reason I am buying gold and silver. The governments of the world can fool around with the value of paper money, but gold and silver, even copper and nickel, are outside their manipulation control for the most part.
The world governments can depress the metals value, but they can’t completely destroy their value, unlike fiat currency.
I suppose the Canadian Mint can claim that it bought its nickel sheets in good faith from a metals producer, but if the coins really are less than pure nickel, that will be one real black eye for the Canadian Government. |
|
|
|
Frugi
Administrator
USA
627 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2006 : 16:01:26
|
In the 1990's Warren Buffet bought 1,000,000 ounces of silver when it was low; his company liquidated it in 2000 I believe. There are people/companies manipulating the silver and gold market including the copper market too; but it is true that the metal market cannot be manipulated as much as the fiat money system.
Real Eyes Realize Real Lies |
|
|
|
pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2006 : 00:50:58
|
It appears that on the site
You must be logged in to see this link.
The price of a five cent piece or nickel is the total value of its copper content
And
its nickel content.
At the current prices (10-20-06) there is .0435 cents of nickel in a nickel, even though the metal nickel is only 25% of the coins makeup (1.25 grams in a 5 gram coin)
If prices keep going up, there will be a nickel’s worth of nickel in a nickel.
So far .05 cents is getting .0723584 cents return on investment, (44.7168 %) better than most mutual funds.
Double check calculations
Price of the metal nickel $15.7873 lb
Grams in a pound 453.59237
.034805039 cents per gram of nickel
Total nickel in a nickel 25% or 1.25 grams in a 5 gram coin
.034805039 times 1.25 grams =.043506298 cents
The price for Canadian Nickels is even better, us hoarders ‘south of the border’ sure are envious of you up in Canada.
Hey wait a minute, at these prices nickel sells for 0.98 cents an ounce, silver once sold for that price many years ago,
nickel the next silver?  |
Edited by - pencilvanian on 10/21/2006 00:57:50 |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Cupro-nickel versus .999 nickel
Forum Locked
