| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
rexmerdinus
Penny Sorter Member
47 Posts |
 Posted - 08/23/2010 : 14:00:49
|
So, I've been kicking around this idea for a while, and I wanted to get some feedback on it.
Let's say I have a job that is my primary livelihood, but I own a business on the side, more as a hobby than a major source of income. This business sells many different widgets, and one particular type of widget sells for around $1500.00 USD. Someone comes in and selects said widget from the shelf, and he and I work out a deal where instead of $1500.00 FRN's, he pays me in specie, specifically a $20.00 gold piece. Since the US has never demonetized obsolete coins and currency, that $20.00 gold double eagle is still legal tender for its face value, so if I assume a 5% sales tax I only have to charge the customer one dollar on behalf of the taxing authority, it would seem. My first question is, does anyone know of any state or local government that has laws against this type of transaction?
Now in terms of income, I actually take a loss, since I don't realize any profit unless I sell that coin for more than the cost of goods sold. Obviously I can't do this on every transaction, since the IRS tends to look rather closely at businesses that operate at a constant loss and still continue to exist. If you take a small salary (say $20.00 or so!), and could still cover all your bottom lines with some other transactions in FRN's, it seems like you could lower your income and business taxes while still building wealth in tangible assets.
I guess I'm wondering how close this would come to money laundering or tax evasion or some other charge.
I'm sure there are more details that would need to be worked out, but you get the general idea. Time for y'all to knock holes in it!
|
|
|
PennySaved
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1720 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2010 : 14:04:59
|
Look what they did to this guy
You must be logged in to see this link. |
SELLING COPPER PENNIES 1.4X FACE SHIPPED......“I sincerely believe that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies, and that the principles of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale” Thomas Jefferson |
 |
|
|
PennySaved
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1720 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2010 : 14:10:01
|
| You must be logged in to see this link. |
SELLING COPPER PENNIES 1.4X FACE SHIPPED......“I sincerely believe that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies, and that the principles of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale” Thomas Jefferson |
|
|
|
Kurr
1000+ Penny Miser Member
2906 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2010 : 14:10:37
|
You must be logged in to see this link.
Employer's gold, silver payroll standard may bring hard time
'This is a case about money, greed and fraud'
Robert Kahre, who owns numerous construction businesses in Las Vegas, is standing trial on 57 counts of income tax evasion, tax fraud and criminal conspiracy. If convicted on most counts, he could live out his life in prison.
But attorney William Cohan paints Kahre as an American "hero" who believes his payroll system helped keep the U.S. monetary system sound, and was also a form of legal tax avoidance.
A self-made entrepreneur, Kahre, 48, paid his workers in gold and silver coin, and said they could go by the coins' face value -- rather than the much higher market value of their precious metal content -- for federal tax purposes. He did not withhold taxes from their wages, and he provided the same payroll system to 35 outside clients, which were other local businesses.
Judge David Ezra is presiding over the criminal trial, which began May 19 in U.S. District Court. Joining Kahre as defendants are his longtime girlfriend, a sister who works in his businesses, and a former business assistant.
Three of the four present defendants were among the nine people tried on similar charges two years ago, but no convictions resulted. In the 2007 trial, four others of the nine defendants, including Kahre's mother, were entirely acquitted. Two individuals were only partially acquitted, but dropped from the indictment that forms the basis for the trial before Ezra.
This time around, the only new defendant is Danille Cline, Kahre's girlfriend of 19 years, and the stay-at-home mother of his four children. The government claims she obstructed the Internal Revenue Service by allowing Kahre to place several homes in her name, thus attempting to conceal his assets.
Cline's former brother-in-law, Thomas Browne, also was indicted this time, for his role as broker in some of the real estate transactions, but has since reached a plea bargain. He is expected to testify against the defendants.
"This is a case about money, greed and fraud." The line appeared on screen in court during the government's opening statement by Christopher Maietta, a trial lawyer from the Washington, D.C., office of the Department of Justice.
According to the government, Kahre and others concocted a fraudulent cash payroll "scheme" and then peddled it to other Las Vegas contractors. Defendants did not report to the IRS any payments made to workers, "either at the true amount or at the bogus amount, ... being the face value of the coin or coins," according to the indictment.
The now-suspended payroll service handled about $114 million over six years, according to court records. Between 17 and 25 percent of that went to Kahre or his workers; the rest went to the 35 client businesses to pay their workers, court records show.
The government did not indict most of the outside businesses or their personnel as co-conspirators with Kahre; although on May 6, Daniel McCartan of Action Concrete, which was one of Kahre's payroll clients, was finally sentenced in connection with a plea agreement reached in December 2006. McCartan received five months in prison and five months of home detention for one count of tax evasion.
Kahre contends his workers had agreed to be independent contractors, so he did not have to withhold taxes for them. His six businesses are in the trades of painting, drywall, tiling, plumbing, heating-cooling and electrical work.
Further, the $50 gold coins and the silver dollars Kahre used for payroll are designated by Congress as legal tender, so people are entitled to value them at their stamped denominations, he also contends. Taken at face value, each defendant's annual coin income placed him below the threshold for filing a federal tax return.
Earlier cases on the question of how to value gold or silver coins have focused on collectible coins that had been pulled from circulation but still have value as property, according to the defense. Kahre used coins minted after 1985, which are allowed to circulate.
"It's not whether what Mr. Kahre did was legal under the law," defense attorney Michael Kennedy told the jury in his opening statement. "It's whether he believed what he did was legal," in the absence of explicit instructions by the IRS -- on its Web site, in its publications or in response to written correspondence from Kahre -- on how to value post-1985 gold or silver coins.
"We're not here to determine if moneys are owed," said Kennedy on behalf of his client, Lori Kahre, who had relied on her brother's tax theory. A tax mistake is different from a tax crime, so the IRS can still use administrative channels to force the defendants to pay back taxes, Kennedy has noted in the past.
A sincere, but mistaken understanding of the tax-filing process is different from adopting a "pretextual" belief system in order to dodge taxes, Ezra acknowledged in court Wednesday.
Cohan described Kahre's payroll system as a "boycott of the Federal Reserve." But when the lawyer attempted to elaborate on Kahre's view that the nation has debased its paper currency by abandoning its former gold standard, Ezra added, "We're not here to convince the jury that the ... (U.S.) monetary system belongs to an international cabal."
Edited to add link
Seems I was late, but ya! |
The silver [is] mine, and the gold [is] mine, saith the LORD of hosts. Hag 2:8 [/b]
He created it. He controls it. He gave it to us for His use. Why did we turn from sound scriptural currency that PROTECTS us?
KJV Bible w/ Strong's Concordance: http://www.blueletterbible.org/
The book of The Hundreds: http://www.land.netonecom.net/tlp/ref/boh/bookOfTheHundreds_v4.1.pdf
The Two Republics: http://www.whitehorsemedia.com/docs/THE_TWO_REPUBLICS.pdf
Good reading: http://ecclesia.org/truth/government.html
A number of people are educated beyond, sometimes way beyond, their intelligence. - Tenbears
|
Edited by - Kurr on 08/23/2010 14:11:37 |
|
|
|
fasteddy
Penny Collector Member
USA
298 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2010 : 14:12:36
|
| good luck on that one...its already been tried and I think the guy is in jail now....Tax evasion...the IRS will get their portion or send you to jail. Not worth it. |
|
|
|
jonflyfish
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
693 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2010 : 14:35:51
|
| Simple rule- IRS values everything in FRN's and thus it is. |
The first panacea for a mismanaged nation is inflation of the currency; second is war. Both bring a temporary (and false) prosperity; both bring a permanent ruin. But both are the refuge of political and economic opportunities. |
|
|
|
Lemon Thrower
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1588 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2010 : 14:41:50
|
on paper you ought to win but that guy didn't win.
one difference with that guy was he made a ready market buying the coins back from his employees.
of course its best not to play with fire. i prefer to pay my taxes and sleep well at night knowing i have paid them. |
Buying:
Peace/Morgan G+ at $15.00
copper cents at 1.3X
wheat pennies at 3X
|
|
|
|
redneck
1000+ Penny Miser Member
1273 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2010 : 17:56:02
|
You must be logged in to see this link.
Businessman Robert Kahre sentenced in tax fraud scheme
By Mary Manning
Tuesday, Nov. 17, 2009 | 6:55 p.m.
Robert Kahre, owner of six construction-related businesses in Las Vegas, was sentenced to more than 15 years in prison today.
Kahre paid employees more than $100 million in cash wages as part of an elaborate scheme to defraud the IRS, said U.S. Attorney Daniel G. Bogden of Nevada.
His sister, Lori Kahre, was sentenced to six years in prison for her role in the conspiracy. Two others, including Kahre's girlfriend and his business consultant, are expected to be sentenced Wednesday, Bogden said.
After more than three hours in a sentencing hearing, visiting U.S. District Judge David A. Ezra of the District of Hawaii sentenced Robert Kahre to serve 15 years and 10 months in federal prison, followed by three years of supervised release.
Kahre was also ordered to pay more than $16 million to the IRS.
The judge ordered Kahre, who has been free on a personal recognizance bond since his arrest in 2005, be taken into custody by U.S. Marshals.
In August 2009, after a three-month trial, Robert and Lori Kahre were found guilty of conspiracy to defraud the federal government to impede the IRS in its collection of income and employment taxes.
Robert Kahre was also convicted at the time of 49 counts of failure to collect or pay employment taxes, two counts of attempting to interfere with administering IRS laws, four counts of tax evasion and one count of wire fraud.
His sister was convicted to two counts of attempting to interfere with administering IRS laws, one count of making a false statement to a bank and seven counts of tax evasion.
Alexander C. Loglia, who served as Robert Kahre's business consultant, was convicted of filing a false income tax return and tax evasion.
Danille Cline, Robert Kahre's girlfriend, was convicted of attempts to interfere with administering IRS laws and wire fraud.
Between 1997 and 2003, Kahre owned and operated six construction businesses, including Wright Painting and Drywall, Production Plumbing, Production Air Conditioning, Production Electric, Union Pacific Construction and Sherman Tile and Marble. Through hundreds of employees at the businesses, Kahre and his sister used a payroll scheme to avoid paying taxes. |
|
|
|
frugalcanuck
Penny Pincher Member
Canada
103 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2010 : 18:08:51
|
| I remember a case where the guy got away with it. It was in the news 2 years ago. I remember it because I asked my boss if I could be payed in Silver maple leafs after I showed him the article. It would save the company taxes and make me happier and thus work harder. Win Win. But he didnt go for it. |
One box of Nickels
11.65% .999 Ni |
|
|
|
Sheikh_yer_BuTay
Penny Pincher Member
USA
232 Posts |
Posted - 08/23/2010 : 22:59:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by PennySaved
You must be logged in to see this link.
Hope he appeals the verdicts. What a sad day for our country.
The Feds keep an ever increasing grip around our throats. |
"The most fiscally irresponsible government in American history."
Mort Zuckerman, liberal columnist and former Obama speech writer |
|
|
|
rainsonme
Penny Pincher Member
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2010 : 23:00:21
|
| I have 2 primary goals for my life: 1 Not to be horribly mutilated in a car accident, and the other, not to be assaulted in federal prison. Therefore, I wear seat belts, drive the speed limit, and pay my taxes. |
|
|
|
rosco
Penny Collector Member
USA
254 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2010 : 03:07:53
|
quote:
Originally posted by rainsonme
I have 2 primary goals for my life: 1 Not to be horribly mutilated in a car accident, and the other, not to be assaulted in federal prison. Therefore, I wear seat belts, drive the speed limit, and pay my taxes.
I'm with you , But I still whine about TAXES |
Old Geezer a HAND Sorter |
|
|
|
Sheikh_yer_BuTay
Penny Pincher Member
USA
232 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2010 : 07:07:45
|
quote:
Originally posted by rexmerdinus
So, I've been kicking around this idea for a while, and I wanted to get some feedback on it.
Actually, it sounds like a good idea! After all, the Government has set the face value of the coins, so how could they not agree with you? Obviously, the IRS does not agree. This subject will eventually be heard at SCOTUS.
If the IRS lost... it would radically change the face value of gold and silver coins and force the gov. to partially go back to a gold standard!
Years ago, I read about how some businesses wrote contracts denominated in ounces of gold, instead of dollars. No taxes were paid because there was no income. I don't remember the details, but the gist of it was the transactions were a net zero on paper. An ounce of gold was exchanged for an ounce of gold's worth of goods. I may have to look that one up again.
We need to learn how Mr. Kahre erred, like exchanging the employees pay back into FRN's. |
"The most fiscally irresponsible government in American history."
Mort Zuckerman, liberal columnist and former Obama speech writer |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
Tax (avoidance) idea
Forum Locked
