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MaDeuce
Penny Pincher Member
USA
124 Posts |
 Posted - 12/07/2007 : 23:13:00
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Brother sorters (any women on the list?),
Months ago, I promised to share some details of what I've been up to, but I got distracted. So I'm trying to catch up a little. I'm sharing this info for two reasons. The first is that I'm not sorting anymore, so I have no reason to keep things confidential. The second is that all of this is interesting to me, and I figure that since you are on the list, you'll find it interesting too.
Enough of the intro... Here's a little bit about the process I was following from start to finish. It's pretty primitive, but it's a hell of a nice improvement over the first load of coins that I sorted. Being out of the country and without most of my tools made it difficult to setup a really nice infrastructure.
In the beginning was Brinks... Brinks was a necessary evil. They were quite proud of themselves and were convinced that they added to our security. However, since we were in an industrial park, where an armored car had never been before, I probably couldn't have come up with anything better than a Brinks truck to draw attention to us.
I was stunned when I first learned that Canadian banks don't handle bulk coins. This means that no matter how many coins we ordered, they all came rolled up nice and tight inside of pretty cardboard boxes. So instead of getting bags of coins ready to be sorted, we had to expend a huge amount of effort "unrolling" the coins. This may help some of you understand why I was asking about roll breakers earlier this year. Our unrolling system was painful -- empty the boxes on a 4x8 sheet of plywood, line all the rolls up nice and straight, then slice both sides of the wrappers with utility knives. Once sliced, then the rolls were emptied of coins one at a time. It actually took longer to unroll than it did to sort. This was the worst part of the entire operation.
Once the coins were out of the wrappers, they were pushed off into a hopper. The hopper would be picked up with a forklift an put up on top of a rack.
Here you can see the hopper on top of the rack. There is a sliding trap door at the base of the hopper. When the trap door is opened, the coins flow into the the top of a chute. There is a pneumatic valve in the top of the chute. This valve is used to regulate the coin flow into the bottom of the chute which leads into the top of the sorter.
Here's a closer shot of the chute; you can see some nickels in it.
In this photo, you can see the coin discharges. The FIBC bag on the left are the rejects. It has loops on the top which can be picked up with a forklift. We had another company that would roll our rejects for us. They'd come by, and we'd just put these bags in their truck. They would roll the coins for us and re-deposit in the bank.
The keepers went into the 5 gallon buckets. They'd eventually end up in some sort of container for shipment.
I eventually quit using 55 gallon drums due to cost. In their place, we began using plywood containers that we made ourselves.
That's about all there was to it.
Happy sorting,
MaDeuce
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penny4mythoughts
Penny Sorter Member
USA
82 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2007 : 03:56:58
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| Wow! Just Wow! |
Los Angeles is the place I call home... |
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NotABigDeal
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
3890 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2007 : 09:24:17
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Absolutely amazing. Quite a setup. Nice money maker for you no doubt. When you said "us" and "our", I assume this was not a solo operation. Was this your actual "day job"? Thank you so much for sharing. Awesome system. How long were you at it? Thanks for sharing, and I look forward to seeing more pictures if you post them.
Deal |
Live free or die.
Plain and simple.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your council or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
- Samuel Adams |
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Tourney64
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1035 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2007 : 10:17:41
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| You are the envy of everyone on this forum. When you first joined and started talking about doing things big time, I thought you may have been full of hot air. As you have shared more, I realized that you weren't. Again thanks for sharing. Truly amazing and congratualtions. |
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MaDeuce
Penny Pincher Member
USA
124 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2007 : 10:18:35
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quote:
Originally posted by NotABigDeal
Absolutely amazing. Quite a setup. Nice money maker for you no doubt. When you said "us" and "our", I assume this was not a solo operation. Was this your actual "day job"? Thank you so much for sharing. Awesome system. How long were you at it? Thanks for sharing, and I look forward to seeing more pictures if you post them.
Deal
Well, the whole thing was strange timing, and definitely a confluence of events happened that allowed me to do it. I'm a software guy from wayback, and have been in high-tech for over 20 years. The last startup I was in wound-down late last year. I was sitting around in the typical "what's my next gig?" mode, and I ran across the whole penny "thing". In fact, it was just after the initial Mint ban that I saw an article in the WSJ about the ban. I thought to myself, "well, I really missed out on that opportunity."
It kept gnawing at me, and I initially spent some time trying to find legal a way around the ban. I never found one, but I did succumb and buy a Ryedale. I was also skeptical about the percentages that I was seeing reported here and elsewhere. So, when my Ryedale came in, I started some test sorting to establish percentages. And as you all know, Cu is still in circulation.
I don't mind pushing the envelope, but I am not going to break the law. So there I sat, knowing about the Cu, but not being able to do anything about it. I started to wonder about other possibilities, and eventually ran across the Canadian nickel thing.
I drove up to Canada with my Ryedale and did some testing up there. Once again, I was amazed to find out the percentages were real. At that point, I hired a Canadian attorney, and got a written opinion that export of coins was legal. Armed with that, I took the leap, and started sorting in earnest. So, yes, it sort of ended up being my day job for a number of months.
It was a blessing, no doubt that I was able to do it. One of those one door closes and another opens type things. In the past, I've been so busy with "real work" that I never could have done this. However, this time, I had some forced spare time on my hands, and I was able to pursue the opportunity in earnest. Even the darkest cloud has a sliver lining, as they say.
MaDeuce
P.S. I did have one other guy help me, a (non-blood) relative. This ended up being a big mistake as he ended up more or less trying to take over the operation. It was really the only blemish on what was a really fun operation. |
Edited by - MaDeuce on 12/08/2007 10:22:02 |
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MaDeuce
Penny Pincher Member
USA
124 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2007 : 10:31:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Tourney64
You are the envy of everyone on this forum. When you first joined and started talking about doing things big time, I thought you may have been full of hot air. As you have shared more, I realized that you weren't. Again thanks for sharing. Truly amazing and congratualtions.
Thanks very much. I hope that all of this is taken in the spirit that it is intended. I'm not trying to brag or show off. I'm just a lucky one that was able to get everything lined up perfectly and go to town for a period of time. I am an engineering-type by nature and by training, and I find the whole situation fascinating. While everything that I did was really pretty crude, I still think it was interesting and I had a lot of fun doing it. I know that most of you have day jobs and can't just chuck everything like I did and go off on a sorting adventure. So, I just want to share some of this with you, because I know that I'd have been fascinated if someone else had done it and shared it with me.
Anyway, as I sure most of you know, you really can't talk about this stuff with most people, even close friends, as you'll rather quickly be tagged as having a screw loose or being some sort of eccentric. Here, we are all brothers in sorting.
Finally, since I'm not sorting anymore, I am more than happy to share what I learned with anyone that needs assistance or that wants advice. I damn sure don't have all the answers, but I have made a bunch of mistakes along the way and have some arrows in the back, so I can at least tell everyone what not to do.
MaDeuce |
Edited by - MaDeuce on 12/08/2007 13:15:30 |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2007 : 14:04:53
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An amazing setup, no doubt about it.
Though your activity in Canadian Nickels may be over, it would not hurt to write down as much as you can for future reference for members on this forum, for yourself, and quite possibly for a book.
I know that sounds odd, a book about coin sorting, but considering the history of US and Canadain Coins in the past fifty years, another changover may someday be in the works.
If Canada can change its change from nickel to cupro-nickel to steel, who is to say the US will not follow the same path?
Such a book would make fascinating reading, especially to coinflationists, including the ones on this forum. |
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c140cessna
Penny Collector Member
USA
419 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2007 : 15:14:26
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A few questions - I was very involved as a serious hobbist doing the same thing (day job got in the way of getting too serious). You and I exchanged emails and a few phone calls early on and about midway through your activity....you were a bit guarded at the time....for obvious reasons.
A few questions:
1) Exactly where were you in Ontario?
2) Who did you use for a wrapping service.... LPS? They claimed to be involved in Ni sorting...they have something like a Coinstar service....
3) Why did you quit?
4) How low did the percentage become in the end....when I started back in March 07...25% was common in Windsor, Sarnia area. It is now well under 5%...not worth the bother...prices are way down...your activity and another guy I know had a major impact on the Ni population....perhaps the RCM ARP as well....love to hear your comments on the ARP...
5) I understand you sold these into the stainless steel industry here in the USA (Texas...)? What was the typical price you could sell at....80% of Spot...more/less?
6) Export must have been interesting....I've pulled over 1 ton of Ni out of Canada and a few tons of Cu...small as compared to your full time activity...
7) What was the final amount of coins sorted and tons exported...and in how long of a time period.
Thanks for sharing. Todd in Michigan. |
Edited by - c140cessna on 12/08/2007 15:19:58 |
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MaDeuce
Penny Pincher Member
USA
124 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2007 : 15:44:52
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Hi c140, yes, I remember you well.
quote:
Originally posted by c140cessna
1) Exactly where were you in Ontario?
I was outside of Toronto
2) Who did you use for a wrapping service.... LPS? They claimed to be involved in Ni sorting...they have something like a Coinstar service....
I used a number of different companies. I started with Brinks, but they were terribly expensive and took forever to get the money back in my account. I subsequently found out that they outsourced all of their processing. I finally found a small family owned operation that gave great service. They charged 6¢ per roll and would give me funds the same day that I delivered coins to them. I really don't recall their name at the moment. If you want it, PM me and I'll get it out of my notes. I also have a caveat -- one company, who I won't name here, kept $60K of my money for almost two months. I ended up having to get my attorney send them demand letters. While I really dislike Brinks for a number of reasons, I will say that you can at least trust them with your money.
I did talk with LPS, but we never managed to do any business with them. They will purchase coins for pretty decent prices, or at least they said they would.
3) Why did you quit?
I could not get enough good coins. Brinks got to where all they would bring me were 2007 coins. I am convinced they started doing this on purpose, but I have absolutely no evidence to support this, so I could easily be wrong. I met with many people at Brinks, but could never get a satisfactory outcome.
4) How low did the percentage become in the end....when I started back in March 07...25% was common in Windsor, Sarnia area. It is now well under 5%...not worth the bother...prices are way down...your activity and another guy I know had a major impact on the Ni population....perhaps the RCM ARP as well....love to hear your comments on the ARP...
I went from 23-25% to 0%. I know someone at a major company involved in the ARP; they warned me that the ARP was cranking up, which it did. I was sorry to see it happen, but I don't have an opinion otherwise. There's still a lot of nickel out there, but the trick is getting it. Since CoinStar in the prime source of older stale money, the CoinStar deal with the Mint on ARP is a killer. Prices dropping like they did were a factor as well. When nickel is $25/lb, it covers up a lot of inefficiency. At $10/lb, you better have a lean, mean operation and a good source of coins.
5) I understand you sold these into the stainless steel industry here in the USA (Texas...)? What was the typical price you could sell at....80% of Spot...more/less?
This is where scale is crucial. If you can deliver 20,000 pounds or so on a regular basis, you can get 90% or better. Lower than that, and you start to take it on the chin.
6) Export must have been interesting....I've pulled over 1 ton of Ni out of Canada and a few tons of Cu...small as compared to your full time activity...
Export is easy, actually. There is a lot of FUD that is liberally distributed by all agencies at the beginning. But, in the end, you just have to follow customs procedures. I never had a problem with a single shipment, not even my first. But I was holding my breath on the first one for sure.
7) What was the final amount of coins sorted and tons exported...and in how long of a time period.
I'll stay a little vague on this one. I did, however, go through hundreds of thousands of dollars in nickels. I started on pennies, but the rolling costs were a deal breaker. Now, if Canada were "civilized" and would handle bulk coins in bags, pennies would be interesting...
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NotABigDeal
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
3890 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2007 : 20:44:08
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Did the profits pay for the lease on the building and the equipment (forklift and such)? Do you have another plot brewing, or are you back to the high-tech thing? Sorry for the questions, but man....just makes me ask questions. You are correct about not being able to talk about it with most people. Genuine supporters are few and far between. A system like yours, however, will shut up any doubters. You sure have some great memories.
Deal |
Live free or die.
Plain and simple.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your council or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
- Samuel Adams |
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MaDeuce
Penny Pincher Member
USA
124 Posts |
Posted - 12/08/2007 : 21:21:49
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quote:
Originally posted by NotABigDeal
Did the profits pay for the lease on the building and the equipment (forklift and such)? Do you have another plot brewing, or are you back to the high-tech thing? Sorry for the questions, but man....just makes me ask questions. You are correct about not being able to talk about it with most people. Genuine supporters are few and far between. A system like yours, however, will shut up any doubters. You sure have some great memories.
Deal
I didn't make nearly as much as people might think, however, I did cover all expenses and got a decent return for my time and assumption of risk.
Yes, I have another scheme cooking. I'm using some of the knowledge from this venture to try something slightly different, but in the same space. Who knows, maybe this time next year I'll have another story to share with y'all.
And you are right about the memories. I was able to make it work, which does make me happy. And it was a lot of fun too.
MaDecue |
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snappy
Penny Collector Member
USA
301 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2007 : 09:37:12
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| I know you could not have searched them all for old/forgin coins but I know looking into a bucket some old ones just stick out were you able to find any good ones or did you even look? |
Selling Ryedale sorted USA cents
1.5 each + shipping over 500fv 1.5 each +1/2 shipping
If you pick up 1.35 each
located MT/ND boarder.
after Ryedale sorting they are hand sorted to remove canadian then rechecked with Ryedale to insure all copper and count out $50 FV then placed in cloth bags and sealed with #1 copper wire. |
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MaDeuce
Penny Pincher Member
USA
124 Posts |
Posted - 12/09/2007 : 11:16:17
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quote:
Originally posted by snappy
I know you could not have searched them all for old/forgin coins but I know looking into a bucket some old ones just stick out were you able to find any good ones or did you even look?
Snappy, when I first started, we were moving things around by buckets, and we'd pour coins into the sorter from buckets. When I was doing things that "hands-on", I pulled a bunch of old nickels and some other stuff out of the sorter. As time went on, and I tried to get more efficient in handling coins (e.g., going to a hopper and a chute), I touched and saw the individual coins less, and consequently pulled fewer old coins out of the pool. Also, as the novelty wore off, I became more focused on just getting the work done, which meant that the older coins were less of an interest. Sort of like being a meat hunter instead of being a trophy hunter, I guess.
I do have a pile of old coins, mostly Canadian. I don't have a feel for what any of them are really worth, so I have to check each one by hand against a reference. I've found a few Canadian nickels that are worth $5-10 or so, but I haven't checked all that many. there may be a few good ones in there...
The biggest surprise out of all the coins I found was an old US one cent piece. About 1903, I think. It's the oldest US coin I've ever found in circulation. Like the others, I checked, but it wasn't worth a whole bunch, say $10 or so.
My favorite coin was the 1963 Canadian nickel. In 1963 Canada put native animals on all of their coinage. The snowshoe hair was chosen for the nickel. My kids used to have rabbits for pets, so we got a kick out of them. I mentioned them to my banker one day, and she had never even heard of them. The next time I went in, I brought a handful of bunny nickels -- they caused quite a stir. Nobody in the bank had ever seen them before and were not aware of their existence. Go figure...
]br]
MaDeuce |
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