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goodcents
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
504 Posts |
 Posted - 02/14/2010 : 20:13:59
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Poll Question:
This may hit a nerve with some people but I'm very curious to get others' opinions on this subject.
I firmly believe in the value of scrap copper and even in the investment of copper pennies 1982 and earlier.
What I'm having a hard time with is seeing copper treated as bullion and extreme rates being charged for .999 pure copper bars, rounds etc. Usually in the 10.00/lb and up rate.
I consider these as art/collectible only and not true investment pieces.
Silver and Gold are precious metals. Copper is not.
So with that being said. What do you think is the most sound investment when it comes to copper
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Kurr
1000+ Penny Miser Member
2906 Posts |
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goodcents
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
504 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2010 : 20:30:10
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| will bars/rounds really hold any value? Beyond scrap/melt value that is? |
Edited by - goodcents on 02/14/2010 20:30:50 |
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goodcents
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
504 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2010 : 20:34:45
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I don't want to sound like a jerk but I really have a bad feeling about people putting a lot of money in "copper bullion". I don't like seeing people lose money in the long term. I feel there is a market for copper bullion bars and rounds. And that is the collectible market. Art bars and something to diversify the collection. True pieces of art that alot of us like to add for a little variety.
But..... I plead with anyone who thinks putting alot of this material away as a investment when they could be saving scrap, pennies, or silver gold.
Am I wrong to think this way. I'm always looking to learn from others and maybe I'm missing something. |
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Neckro
1000+ Penny Miser Member
Saudi Arabia
2080 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2010 : 20:38:38
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I believe copper pennies have less value than pure copper in the scrap market. Dealers pay below spot for your pure copper, let alone would pay even less for unpure pennies. And face value, if SHTF happens, that 1c face will still buy you nothing.
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Trolling is an art. |
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2010 : 20:38:53
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quote:
Originally posted by goodcents
will bars/rounds really hold any value? Beyond scrap/melt value that is?
There may be some collector's value to them someday.
Kurr said it well in his reply. Copper (brass) pennies at face value can't be beat for use as a money. Scrap copper obtained for free can't be beat for cashing in on now or for holding for the future. I wouldn't be trying to compete with the scrap yards in buying scrap copper just to store it away for the future. An exception might be something like copper buss bars if I could get them cheap enough and they were not hot. But who is going to sell them cheap if they weren't?
Your last poll obtion didn't really fit in with the rest. |
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Think positive. |
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goodcents
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
504 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2010 : 20:42:50
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The last option was simply to say.....I have not yet been convinced copper is a viable investment option in the metals market. So I'll stick to silver and gold. For those who have not hopped on the copper bandwagon.
I'm hoping for some good debate on the subject of copper as an upcoming semi-precious metal or poor mans bartering method as the paper dollar becomes less and less valuable over time. |
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2010 : 20:55:09
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It all goes back to copper being a monetary metal as long or longer than gold and silver. Obviously it is still being used even today. The big problem with it like you said is that to get .999 pure bars makes it cost prohibitive...at least on a small scale. Transportation costs alone are expensive. I think I could get a hold of pure copper in Erie for a reasonable price but I would have to buy a lot and to resell it I would be faced with a limited market other than scrap dealers. Unless copper really takes off again I can't see how selling to scrap dealers would turn a profit. Storage could be a problem too.
I'm putting my money into silver now and buying US nickels at face value to hold as a hard money cash reserve. |
Realcent.forumco.com disclosure. Please read.
All posts either by the members, moderators, and the administration of http://realcent.forumco.com are for your edification and amusement only. It is not the intent of realcent.forumco.com or its host to provide investment, medical, matrimonial, legal, security or tax advice and nothing posted here should be considered to be so. All rights reserved.
Think positive. |
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Kurr
1000+ Penny Miser Member
2906 Posts |
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2010 : 21:24:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Kurr
How's that for a viable investment?
It all depends on what you buy and sell at.
Looks great, but what you are looking at is paper copper on the Comex. That's one thing, but buying physical .999 copper on a small scale and reselling it for the same or even similar profit appears to be quite another. |
Realcent.forumco.com disclosure. Please read.
All posts either by the members, moderators, and the administration of http://realcent.forumco.com are for your edification and amusement only. It is not the intent of realcent.forumco.com or its host to provide investment, medical, matrimonial, legal, security or tax advice and nothing posted here should be considered to be so. All rights reserved.
Think positive. |
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hobo finds
Penny Hoarding Member
838 Posts |
Posted - 02/14/2010 : 21:38:48
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145 copper pennies make a pound.
A lb. of copper is $3.08.
I got $2.15 a pound for scrap copper at the scrap yard |
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Market Harmony
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1274 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2010 : 00:14:05
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quote:
Originally posted by goodcents
This may hit a nerve with some people but I'm very curious to get others' opinions on this subject.
I firmly believe in the value of scrap copper and even in the investment of copper pennies 1982 and earlier.
What I'm having a hard time with is seeing copper treated as bullion and extreme rates being charged for .999 pure copper bars, rounds etc. Usually in the 10.00/lb and up rate.
I consider these as art/collectible only and not true investment pieces.
Silver and Gold are precious metals. Copper is not.
So with that being said. What do you think is the most sound investment when it comes to copper
I have been pretty consistent with my recommendation to people looking to purchase copper bullion, "First, decide why you are doing it, and then let good judgment and general interest guide your buying decisions.
Everyone that holds bullion is proud of their collection. I've yet to hear anyone say, "my safe is ugly inside" or "I really hate that 10 ounce silver bar" This is the key point to consider when deciding on a style of copper bullion to purchase. You never want to look into your safe and feel regret. I'm not writing this to defend copper bullion as an investment, or to advertise Market Harmony LLC. I am just sharing my philosophy of why my company offers bullion in the unique, hand-poured style that it does.
When someone looks at their hoard of copper bullion, do they see it as an investment in metal? Normally, not unless they bought it for current spot price or less, or they are planning on reselling it as merchandise. The latter is still not necessarily an investment in metal, but an investment in a finished product that will be sold for a profit.
So, why would someone pay more than spot for copper bullion? Here's a few possibilities:
- They like the looks of it (it's artistic) and see more than just intrinsic value
- They need it for something other than investment (functional purpose, i.e. conversation, paperweight, etc.)
- They view it as a collectible item (hobbyists)
- They assume that current premiums will extend into the future. They plan to be able to profit with value added service, or by playing the copper market, and hoping to recoup current premiums at the time of divestiture (speculative investment)
- They are looking to invest in copper, but are uninformed of the intrinsic value of the bullion they purchase (they make a financial mistake)
There may be other reasons to add to this short list, but I have found that these are the common reasons of people who buy copper bullion. This poll asks about copper as an investment. This infers that speculators must be the main participants. At first glance this question is easily answered: speculators should want higher copper prices, so that they can make more money on their investment in copper. Their goals would be to find the cheapest supply of copper. However, copper bullion was specifically mentioned, and this changes things.
The primary goal of a speculator in copper bullion should be to increase the total number of copper bullion buyers in the other categories (art lovers, functional users, hobbyists, and uninformed buyers). If speculators are simply selling to other speculators, then the market is just churning. But, if they sell to end users, who will keep their copper bullion, then the available supply in the market shrinks. This would support the higher premiums, and keep the speculation game going.
Are there profits to be made in speculating in copper bullion? Yes, absolutely. Will they last forever? My guess is, no. Eventually, we will see many types of generically cut and smoothed bars that have a different stamp on them (Buffalo, WL, Morgan, Peace, etc.) and these will be pretty commonplace. Premiums will fall as the end user marketplace becomes saturated, and speculators can only sell to other speculators, who will only buy at very low prices because that is the nature of the speculating game: buy low, sell high. Or, buy high, sell higher. Sooner or later, these speculators will loose enough money that they will exit. End users will be ever more picky in their choice of copper bullion.
Does this mean that all copper bullion will cease to continue to sell at high premiums? No. When there is a product which appeals to the end users' needs, and not the speculators, then premiums will be maintained. To prove this, just imagine that you open your safe of bullion many years into the future: Gold is at $4000, Silver at $250 (we can dream, right?) and Copper is at $15. But at this point, the premiums in copper have dropped due to market saturation, and the generic bars of today are at tomorrow's intrinsic value. What kind of copper do you want to have in your safe at that point in time? An artistic piece, a paperweight blob, or a generic bar? Do you want to be the first person to EVER say, "I hate the way my safe looks on the inside?"
So, I also come back to what I've always said, "first, decide why you want to do it, and then let good judgment and general interest guide your buying decision" It is my opinion that producers and retailers which keep the end users' needs in mind will be supporting the copper bullion niche. Speculators that are projecting future profits on today's circumstances will eventually become disappointed. However, the people who buy copper bullion because they find it artistically appealing, or can put it towards a useful purpose, will enjoy their purchase for many years into the future. They should always be able to look inside their safe and like what they see.
With all this being said, I answered the poll question for exactly how it was stated, "What do you think is the most sound investment when it comes to copper" I voted copper pennies... "investment" was the key word in my opinion.
However, if you had just put in the word "bullion" then my answer would most assuredly have been biased   |
goto the new and improved realcent: http://realcent.org |
Edited by - Market Harmony on 02/15/2010 00:29:30 |
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goodcents
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
504 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2010 : 17:15:51
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| I appreciate the great post MH. |
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goodcoin
Penny Sorter Member
42 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2010 : 19:41:09
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I voted for scrap copper because you can usually find it for free when people are remodeling and/or repairing their old plumbing. Copper pennies are the way to go otherwise. Forty years back you were able to get some good candy for a cent . With the price of copper going up and hyper-inflation in view, those days are coming back for the penny store. |
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Flbandit
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
851 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2010 : 21:07:39
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| I have to say all the above. I try to hold a bit of everything I can get. You never can tell what will be hot in the future, or for how long. |
Are you throwing that out? |
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goodcoin
Penny Sorter Member
42 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2010 : 00:40:28
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| I like copper pennies. They feel like real money. |
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PennySaved
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1720 Posts |
Posted - 02/27/2010 : 01:08:04
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| Personally, I like scrap copper and copper pennies when it comes to investing in copper. If you are looking for a less speculative holding of copper for the short term, I think those are the two best options. Once it gets harder to pick up copper pennies at face from the bank, then I would consider start paying the higher premium for copper bullion bars. |
SELLING COPPER PENNIES 1.4X FACE SHIPPED......“I sincerely believe that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies, and that the principles of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale” Thomas Jefferson |
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Scrap Copper VS Copper Bullion
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