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barrytrot
Administrator
USA
721 Posts |
 Posted - 01/12/2010 : 18:56:51
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Anyone know when the ban on melting 90% silver was lifted?
I'm curious as I'm trying to see if a long term play on a somewhat substantial amount of cents makes sense.
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jacer333
Penny Pincher Member
USA
119 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2010 : 19:01:02
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| I am finding May 1969 to be date. Looks like roughly 5 years from the metal change then, not a terribly long time span. |
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Country
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
3121 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2010 : 19:05:32
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| I don't think the melt ban will be lifted on coppers until: (1) cents are discontinued, or (2) cents are minted in another alloy distinctively different in color; and after these are minted in sufficient quantity for commerce (5 years after the change). |
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– Theodore Roosevelt
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toomuchcopper
Penny Collector Member
USA
406 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2010 : 19:16:06
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| they will not lift the ban on copper until they dont need to to reproduce the one cent coin, |
visit www.crazycoinguy.com
for information on how to sort, what to sort, and sorting equipment. We also sell copper pennies in bulk, and other coins. |
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jadedragon
Administrator
Canada
3788 Posts |
Posted - 01/12/2010 : 21:32:17
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| I would guess the melt ban will only last until the percentage in circulation drops low enough that the coppers disappearing will not matter much. Also, they will switch to steel core cents or something else cheap. Basically same as when silver disappeared from circulation the silver melt ban no longer made sense. |
“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” – George Bernard Shaw.
Why Copper Bullion ~~~ Interview with Silver Bullion Producer Market Harmony
Passive Income blog |
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barrytrot
Administrator
USA
721 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2010 : 07:39:34
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| Anyone know the date that the SILVER melt ban was lifted? I'm looking for hard facts if possible :) |
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AGCoinHunter
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
685 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2010 : 08:32:46
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| I dont think there ever was a ban on melting silver was there? As I understand the law on on AG coins is that you can melt them just not alter them for the purpose of fraud. |
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent."
-Thomas Jefferson
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slickeast
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2533 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2010 : 08:38:39
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| Department of the Treasury's regulations prohibiting the exportation, melting, or treatment of silver coins between 1967 and 1969 |
You don't have to be the BEST you just have to be.......SLICK
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slickeast
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2533 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2010 : 08:49:49
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| The anti-melting ban officially began as of May 19, 1967. |
You don't have to be the BEST you just have to be.......SLICK
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slickeast
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2533 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2010 : 08:57:03
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| In May 1969 the manipulative Feds lifted the ban on melting of the discontinued 90% silver coins in a move to free more metal for the predacious Silver Users Association |
You don't have to be the BEST you just have to be.......SLICK
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slickeast
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2533 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2010 : 08:59:25
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| Appears to be around May 13th ( 1969 ) when the ban was lifted |
You don't have to be the BEST you just have to be.......SLICK
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barrytrot
Administrator
USA
721 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2010 : 10:36:48
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Thanks slickeast!
Good to know.
So if we assume similar behavior (and betting on similarity in the Government other than always being lame is risky of course!) then that would mean a removal of the ban no earlier than 2015 based on 2012 for "steel/other type change" and then add 3 years for the rest of the timing of the melt ban. And possibly the melt ban could go to 2017 if we add 5 years (1969 - 1964) to a 2012 type change.
I'm anticipating a "type change" in 2012 since by then each cent will have been worth a "cent" for a year giving the mint enough time to react and change it out.
Naturally it could be 2013, 2014, or (probably not) 2011. But I'm guessing 2012 is the year.
So lets do some math assuming a melt lift on 2017:
Let's say that the copy value at that point is equivalent to 3 cents per cent (3x). That's probably reasonable, I would think.
If you buy copper on the market right now for 1.5x that means that you double your investment in 7 years. That's just over 11% per year.
However, if you get your copper at "face value" and hold it until 2017 that means you triple your money in 7 years, which is 17% per year, which is quite good!
So in either case, copper appears to be a good buy right now at any level! |
Edited by - barrytrot on 01/13/2010 10:37:15 |
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wheeler_dealer
Penny Collector Member
USA
402 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2010 : 11:17:56
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| Slickeast has provided very accurate data regarding the melt ban. Silver users association was the driving force behind that ban being lifted. Think KODAK and Polaroid and it's inherent need for silver in film, also the military was a big consumer of silver in warheads( need to check but believe the figure was 1,ooo,ooo ounces per missile). When calculating time frames for potential lifting of ban remember to do your homework carefully. |
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wheeler_dealer
Penny Collector Member
USA
402 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2010 : 11:30:16
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I would be pressed to guesstimate the time frame of any melt ban on cents being lifted. IMO I think the that we could see it occur if we end up in a war where the need for industrial metals (copper) for bullets or equipment causes a strain on supply. The other possibility would be the production costs for cents outpaces metal costs and forces the composition change. (could be a long time for that since U.S. wants to create jobs and mining and associated industries may end up being subsidized. (or worse NATIONALIZED)
Food for thought: FDR recalled Gold as a supposed act of patriotism. Failure to turn in Gold was a crime. Back then ownership was mostly private and no records were kept. Today we have digital finger prints and a controlled bank system. Make no mistake if the Government wanted our copper for whatever reason they would come get it and leave us with their current script. |
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NDFARMER
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1197 Posts |
Posted - 01/13/2010 : 12:03:46
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quote:
Originally posted by wheeler_dealer
Make no mistake if the Government wanted our copper for whatever reason they would come get it and leave us with their current script.
How would they know I have copper? When I dump my zincers each week I always get paid in cash and when I go to my supply bank to pick up my bags I always pay with cash. |
COPPER - the "poormans" precious metal!!!
SELLING - $100.00 face copper shipped to you for $189.00 machine rolled or bagged - PM me if your interested. |
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goldsilverpro
Penny Sorter Member
26 Posts |
Posted - 01/17/2010 : 09:39:32
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Some comments about the melting of 90% coins, historically.
The silver content of 90% silver coins is .72336 tr.oz./$1 face value. When these coins could be obtained at face value, the break-even silver price was therefore a little over $1.38/oz. In about June of 1967, the price broke this level and went to about $1.70. It remained above this level and the peak was about $2.60 sometime between June 1967 and May 1969, when melting was legalized.
During this 2 year window, there was a lot of illegal melting done. A book was written about this period called "The Great Silver Meltdown", that detailed the illegal melting operations. It's main purpose was to show that, due to the huge volumes of melting involved, the scarcity of all coin dates was far greater than the mintage quantities in the coin books would indicate. I am unable to find any mention of this book on the internet. I once owned a copy, so I know it existed. The book is very interesting. For example, I remember stories about axles breaking on the vehicles used to transport the bags of coins.
The method used was to melt the coins with enough copper to lower the silver content to 80%. That way, they could claim that they were melting Canadian silver coins. The bullion was then shipped to major silver refiners for refining.
I knew a guy that was a major player in this. He profited about $4 million during this time. He claimed to have used a total of $60,000 worth of copper to downgrade the silver from 90% to 80%. Copper was about $.40/pound at that time. If you do the math (I did this quickly, so there may be errors), that would mean that he melted about 20 million oz of coins. And he was only one of many melters. His profit seems to be right in line, considering such things as the high refining fees necessarily involved with refining 80% silver. Also, since the refiners surely knew the source of this material, there were probably "bonuses" involved. |
Edited by - goldsilverpro on 01/17/2010 09:49:55 |
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NiBullionCu
Penny Pincher Member
USA
168 Posts |
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goldsilverpro
Penny Sorter Member
26 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2010 : 08:06:01
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| You're right and I'm wrong. I don't know why that other title stuck in my head all these years. Actually, I think the term, The Great Silver Meltdown, was used to signify what happened in 1980. I was confusing the two. |
Edited by - goldsilverpro on 01/20/2010 08:07:30 |
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kirkland
New Member
USA
0 Posts |
Posted - 01/20/2010 : 13:40:51
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| I wondered about the same thing. Hopefully the copper pennies and nickels melt ban is lifted soon. |
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When was the silver melt ban lifted?
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