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brian0918
Penny Collector Member
USA
315 Posts |
 Posted - 10/28/2009 : 09:16:22
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I emailed someone recently who was selling silver rounds on ebay, flat out asking "how do I know these are silver". The only thing he could say is that there's really no incentive for counterfeiting silver rounds / American Eagles.
But what about if the SHTF and the price of gold/silver skyrockets? Will people be less likely to accept non-mint or off-brand silver rounds due to increased possibility of counterfeiting? Is there any chance nobody will want the gold/silver bullion I'm saving if SHTF?
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"The man who speaks to you of sacrifice, speaks of slaves and masters. And intends to be the master." -- Ayn Rand
Searched: $2230 Nickels; Liberty: 1; Buffalo: 4; War: 20; 2009: 2; 2010D: 8 |
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Lemon Thrower
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1588 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2009 : 10:09:02
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there is always that risk - hard to quantify.
this is why govt minted stuff has the highest premium.
its also why i am leery of numismatics - the premium for condition/rarity is irrelevant in a shtf scenario. |
Buying:
Peace/Morgan G+ at $15.00
copper cents at 1.3X
wheat pennies at 3X
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moboman
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2555 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2009 : 10:15:42
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I've been wondering this a lot lately. A scale will help, b/c knowing that it's marked a certain weight and it isnt, means it's probably not real. Also u can drop the bar and see if it makes a ping sound.
These are the only tests the local coin shop does. They've handled enough silver they can tell just by seeing it normally. knowing a certain weight should look like a certain size also helps. Like how big (diameter and thickness) an oz coin should be because it's possible to make an oz in aluminum, but it wouldnt be the same size.
Basically there's nothing stopping anyone from stamping bars .999. |
"99% of all lawyers give the rest of them a bad name" 
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beauanderos
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2408 Posts |
 Posted - 10/28/2009 : 10:38:40
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I've bought thousands of coins off ebay over the last six years and had problems three times, each with gold coins. One was a Mexican fifty peso that was obviously the wrong color but you couldn't tell from the pic. Got my money back. Another was a St. Gauden's $20 that was pretty darned realistic, right weight, looked like gold... but it didn't have the stars on the rim! Last was a guy advertising a 1913 indian head gold coin that stated in small print at the very bottom "ebay wouldn't let me change the title after the ad was listed, this is really for a 1913 gold-plated nickel." Well, I wasn't about to buy it after I read that and refused, went to arbitration and won. Brian - you're probably right about silver being counterfeited when it gets more expensive. The Chinese already make copies of most numismatic silver coins, I have an 1804 fifty cent piece I bought just for fun that I think I paid less than two dollars for. Just check the feedback rating of sellers and only buy from those who have very high ratings from hundreds of buyers. (tough luck, new guys)  |
Hoard now and hold on!
http://coppermillions.blogspot.com/
http://wherewillyoubein2012.blogspot.com/ |
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Lemon Thrower
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1588 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2009 : 11:52:01
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yeah, i have seen on other boards folks finding several counterfeit 1909 vdb-S. guy took it to the coin shop and he had a box with a few dozen counterfiets in there.
i also so a replica 1892-S half on ebay. it was listed as a replica. now that is not really a headline coin, maybe 2-300 bucks. so the replicas are getting widespread.
i think with gold you are crazy if you don't measure and weigh it.
silver you can weigh cumulatively - like a whole bag.
this has the potential to ruin the entire numismatic portion of the hobby. |
Buying:
Peace/Morgan G+ at $15.00
copper cents at 1.3X
wheat pennies at 3X
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n/a
deleted
478 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2009 : 12:16:37
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I stay away from any bullion made in Mexico or China. One of the most counterfeited gold coins is the English Sovereign.
I understand Peace and Morgan Dollars are being faked also. Some are pretty good quality. Here's a link showing some chicom fakes.
You must be logged in to see this link. |
Edited by - n/a on 10/28/2009 12:20:34 |
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Copper Catcher
Administrator
USA
2092 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2009 : 14:21:31
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| I have one of the generic silver rounds that is not silver. A magnet attracts! So yes, there are counterfeit silver coins already out there! |
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beauanderos
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2408 Posts |
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n/a
deleted
478 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2009 : 18:02:40
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| Silver: Austrian Philharmonic, Canadian Maple Leaf or American Eagles (AE's not being produced this year). Purchase from a reliable source, pay the extra premium. 90% US coinage, smaller denominations...maybe Canadian 80% also as you may get some deals on it. Avoid MEXICAN COINS or anything from China. |
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n/a
deleted
478 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2009 : 18:06:06
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I posted this before but here it is again. Inside a Fake Morgan Silver Dollar Factory with photos. China, gotta love them. Enjoy!
You must be logged in to see this link.
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Edited by - n/a on 10/28/2009 18:21:04 |
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Dalsuh
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
757 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2009 : 18:16:37
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I live near the Jewelry District and Chinatown so I run into many fakes. After handling enough silver it's pretty easy to tell the fakes IMO. I don't have much experience buying gold/platinum so I only buy from trusted dealers.
The only silver I stay away from are "big bars"(100 oz. and up) because they can be drilled and you'll never know it. If you want big bars, again, buy from trusted dealers. There's many out there.
Watch out for Craigslist! |
PACK THE FORUM EVERY MONDAY NIGHT
Eastern 9 PM
Central 8 PM ( Forum Time )
Mountain 7 PM
Pacific 6 PM ( HoardCopperByTheTon Time)
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Dalsuh
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
757 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2009 : 18:22:40
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| Especially considering all the news about tungsten bars, I'll definitely stick with 10 oz. bars/coins and under. Liquidity becomes a problem when you have anything over 100 ozs. |
PACK THE FORUM EVERY MONDAY NIGHT
Eastern 9 PM
Central 8 PM ( Forum Time )
Mountain 7 PM
Pacific 6 PM ( HoardCopperByTheTon Time)
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Market Harmony
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1274 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2009 : 19:51:56
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Niton Gun, check it out: You must be logged in to see this link. There are many of these around. Your local scrap yard may even have one. They are excellent for 10 oz and lower precious metal bars, rounds, etc. The key is the thickness of what you are testing.
Learn about hallmarks here: You must be logged in to see this link..
As stated earlier, anyone with a stamp set and a hammer can put "999" on a bar. But, put a hallmark on it, and that bar is now authenticated by the hallmarker.
If you are only looking for the raw PM's, then don't become a numismatist. If you are only looking for collectible coins, then invest your time in learning all the details before buying.
There are labs where you can send a drill sample taken from larger bars if you are unsure or skeptical of the authenticity of a hallmark, or from an unmarked bar.
There are many resources available to authenticate PM's, and many resources freely available to use to educate yourself on numismatics. If someone is too lazy or cannot find the resources, then perhaps they should stick to only those physical products which are virtually guaranteed to be authentic, or find a reputable and trustworthy dealer, or avoid physical product and stick to paper investments.
In a SHTF scenario, however unlikely, the person that is most educated will be the real winner, regardless of whether they make a purchase, sale, or take no action at all. But there will ALWAYS be a buyer for PM's... ALWAYS  |
goto the new and improved realcent: http://realcent.org |
Edited by - Market Harmony on 10/28/2009 19:56:33 |
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beauanderos
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2408 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2009 : 20:14:50
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| Wow, just viewed the pics in the link provided by CN. Nothing is safe anymore! How do we even know they won't start counterfeiting the eagles, maple leafs, philharmonics, etc?? Always has to be someone around to spoil a good thing. I'd really hate to consider that perhaps a sizable proportion of my cache could be fakes!! |
Hoard now and hold on!
http://coppermillions.blogspot.com/
http://wherewillyoubein2012.blogspot.com/ |
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El Dee
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
547 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 10:22:40
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I'll never walk through a coin show with confidence again.
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Trust the government? Ask an Indian. |
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Coinage
Penny Collector Member
Canada
303 Posts |
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keys
Penny Collector Member
383 Posts |
Posted - 10/29/2009 : 20:56:42
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The first coins were produced in the kingdom of Lydia, now part of modern Turkey, but when it comes to counterfeit coins keep this in mind-
The first coins were minted on a Monday in 700 BC
the first Fake coins were produced the day after in 700 BC
It has alwyas been a buyer beware kind of world whether you are looking for coins or anything else. Roman coins were counterfeited during the times of the Roman Empire, even though it meant execution if the counterfeiter was caught.
Here is a tidbit of information I had heard somewhere before-
The Aztecs used cocoa beans as money the way copper coins were used elsewhere.
Think this eliminated the counterfeiting problem?
Think again- Fake cocoa beans were made from baked clay and sometimes passed for the real thing!
As far as the original question, what happens if silver is faked in a post SHTF world, will people refuse to accept them?
Not likely, since there will be traders who will have the means to test the purity of PMs.
Ever hear of Brasher? He was the man who produced the Brasher Dubloon, one of the most beautiful gold coins made after the American Revolution was over. Many examples of these Brasher Dubloons, as well as many other coins, were stamped by Brasher to authenticate the coin's qurity and the fact it was real.
This was a hallmark of sorts, a trader stamping the coin to gaurantee its authenticity and purity, much like traders stamped gold and silver objects before coins were minted.
A trader could establish a good reputation testing gold and silver and 'hallmarking' the objects that are tested. Granted, there could be counterfeit hallmark stamps stamped into coins and ingots, but this would require careful planning and skill that few would posess in a post SHTF world.
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I change with the times-
but like silver coins found in your change
I stay the same.
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The United States of America started out as the new Republic of Rome.
Will The United States of America end up as the New Imperial Rome? |
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Risk of silver bullion counterfeiting when SHTF?
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