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MaDeuce
Penny Pincher Member
USA
124 Posts |
 Posted - 07/13/2007 : 17:14:21
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Getting your coinage to sort from the bank is fraught with peril. I say this because you have no control over what it is that the bank sends you. I do a lot of sorting and I know others that do as well. From time to time (some of us more than others), one can get a "goose egg", which in this case, would be boxes or bags of coins all directly from the mint. Yes, you can sort these coins quickly (in fact, without even opening the box), but the yields aren't so hot! ;-)
Yes, you can get deals with armored car companies to purchase street coin from them, but it is exceedingly expensive to do so, and frequently they aren't up to the task. At least in my experience...
Lately, I've been conducting a thought exercise to identify which industries are the largest generators of pennies and nickels. The idea being that, if they are identified, one could go and purchase coin directly from them (before they roll it and send it to the bank or armored car company).
Phone companies and transit companies/authorities are two that I have identified and validated as good potential sources. Coin operated laundries and laundromats are not good, as they typically operate on quarters or larger.
Anyone else have ideas about good sources of large quantities of street coin?
Best Regards,
MaDeuce
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Hirbonzig
Penny Collector Member
USA
451 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2007 : 16:09:10
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| I think that groups like the Lions Club or the Kiwanis Clubs still have 1 and 5 cent gumball machines. Maybe one could buy the coin from their machines before it goes to the bank. A donation to these groups could also help land the deal. |
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just carl
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
601 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2007 : 20:42:57
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Wasting time. Best thing to do is try to meet, date, marry a bank teller. Better yet a bank official with access to the vault.
Carl |
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ME CO
Penny Pincher Member
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2007 : 20:53:43
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| Carls right. Mark |
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Hirbonzig
Penny Collector Member
USA
451 Posts |
Posted - 07/14/2007 : 22:28:23
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| Good idea carl. Marry a bank manager and get to sit in the vault and sort. |
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 02:22:43
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I agree with Carl. An intimate relationship with a person at the bank is your best bet. One other possible source, especially for pennies, would be charities. Salvation Army, Muscular Distrophy, Schools with penny drives. I remember doing some volunteer work with some charities a few years back and they would really appreciate someone coming in with a good high speed counter and counting their coin for them and just cashing them out. This would also free them up to work more on fund raising rather than counting all those coins so you would be doing a good deed.
"Preserving coinage.. 2 tons at a time"
HoardCode0.1:M48/14USCA:US1Cu639700:US5Ni2400:CA5Ni46 |
Edited by - HoardCopperByTheTon on 07/15/2007 13:15:01 |
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ME CO
Penny Pincher Member
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 13:34:16
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I just had that thought this AM but alas no high speed counter in the midst. Mark
The one at the CU I dump at must be a dinasaur- I remember thinking as I slowly fed it Saturday I could hand count faster. |
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 16:10:08
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quote:
Originally posted by ME CO
I just had that thought this AM but alas no high speed counter in the midst. Mark
The one at the CU I dump at must be a dinasaur- I remember thinking as I slowly fed it Saturday I could hand count faster.
Well, maybe they would be happy to just sell all those pennies to you after they roll them up or bag them. That way they wouldn't have to lug them to the bank. It's worth a try. I just figured volunteering to count the change for them would give you a better shot at getting to buy it.
"Preserving coinage.. 2 tons at a time"
HoardCode0.1:M48/14USCA:US1Cu639700:US5Ni2400:CA5Ni46 |
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ME CO
Penny Pincher Member
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 17:49:10
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| Definately counting and rolling or bagging would be the most help to them. Mark |
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 18:17:09
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I always wondered if it would pay to buy pennies by the pound from the public? Of course copper pennies are heavier than zinc. A guy could set his bid price based on a set percentage of copper ones.
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Fanaticism is doubling one's efforts, yet forgetting one's purpose.
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 07/15/2007 : 20:04:40
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Well I have multiple machines to do each operation (sorting, counting, rolling, bagging) Guess I should use this idea as a source and contact some charities. It is a win/win deal. I get a good source of raw coins and I will be doing a good deed for my local charities at the same time.
"Preserving coinage.. 2 tons at a time"
HoardCode0.1:M48/14USCA:US1Cu639700:US5Ni2400:CA5Ni46 |
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MaDeuce
Penny Pincher Member
USA
124 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2007 : 08:17:03
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Guys, if you think this is a "waste of time," or you think that making friends with a teller is the solution, you aren't thinking on the right scale. I need to source $50-100K per week. Some of the ideas about penny drives, Kiwanis, etc., are good, but they would seem to be sporadic. What I am looking for is consistent sources of coin on a day-in day-out basis.
The perfect situation would be to find businesses that generate large volumes of nickels or pennies and who are currently paying a small fortune to have them wrapped. I'd be happy to pay them face value for their loose coin, thereby saving them the expense of wrapping them.
So, the question remains, what types of regular, ongoing businesses generate significant volumes of pennies and/or nickels?
MaDeuce |
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2007 : 12:02:28
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MaDeuce,
Have you thought about what it is going to cost you to transport 4,000 boxes of pennies per week? Maybe what the armored car companies want to charge is not so unreasonable. There are few businesses that generate pennies or nickels in quantity. The small change does not circulate, it is merely used to make change for the consumer who throws it in a water jug or sock drawer. The only business that might generate a little volume is an operation such as Coinstar. To play at the level you want to play at maybe you can buy the franchise for several of these machines and vertically integrate.
I am curious, just where are you going to dispose of $80,000 (1600 bags) of zinc every week? At that level they are going to want to collect some serious fees from you.
You are running into the same problems we all do, it just becomes increasingly difficult at the higher volume level. There are 4 main parts to the operation.
Sourcing the pennies - a few rolls or boxes are easy, Tonnage is a challenge
Unwrapping - a few rolls or boxes are easy, the RollCracker 1000 will cover you at the industrial level.
Sorting - a few rolls or boxes are easy, a couple of hundred boxes are possible with a Ryedale machine. You would need multiple machines and labor for high volume.
Disposing of zinc - a few rolls or boxes are easy, $80,000 a week and somebody is going to want some serious fees. The stuff is heavy, and it costs money to transport it. They would surely notice a hit that size to the bottom line so they are not going to eat those fees.
"Preserving coinage.. 2 tons at a time"
HoardCode0.1:M48/14USCA:US1Cu639700:US5Ni2400:CA5Ni46 |
Edited by - HoardCopperByTheTon on 07/17/2007 01:18:35 |
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2007 : 14:04:13
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There is one more part of the operation, unless you are planning on building up a serious personal hoard. Do you have a market for $20,000 (400 bags) of copper every week? My experience is that the market for copper coins is still a little soft, and to move that kind of volume with the melting ban still in effect you would have to deeply discount it.
I was also thinking that that amount of coin (10 million pennies) would be more than the amount in circulation in any given area so you could not realistically expect to extract that many from circulation on a weekly basis. You may have to scale down the operation a little bit.
What price did the armored car companies quote you for delivering large quantities of coin?
"Preserving coinage.. 2 tons at a time"
HoardCode0.1:M48/14USCA:US1Cu639700:US5Ni2400:CA5Ni46 |
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MaDeuce
Penny Pincher Member
USA
124 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2007 : 19:25:03
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HCBTT, your observations are certainly valid, but they aren't really relevant to my original question. And, yes, I know the costs because I already incur them and have been incurring them for a good while. I was really hoping for some constructive input, not advice to the effect that I don't really need to know the answer to the question I posed. I will remain tight-lipped about what I do with them, but it is entirely legal and done with the relevant parties knowledge/approval.
I guess that another, perhaps more benign, way of posing the question would be to ask, "What industries/businesses are the largest users/providers of nickels and pennies? Which industries have the largest demand for rolling of nickels and pennies?" I'd welcome more thoughts on this.
To answer your question about armored car transport prices, they are much more reasonable than I had expected. However, I have cut back on using them and only do so when absolutely necessary -- the attention they draw causes increases the risk of associated problems exponentially more than does using a Ryder truck or other commercial carrier. Brinks and the others will argue about it 'till they are blue in the face, but the fact remains -- for bulk coins, armored car deliveries create more problems than they solve. One internationally known company charges me $155/month (one year contract) for four pickups and four deliveries, and this is in their monster truck designed for bulk coin. Additional pickups/deliveries are $35 each. I can only assume that they use the delivery/pickup service as a loss leader for their rolling and unrolling services, which cost an arm and a leg.
MaDeuce |
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2007 : 01:14:41
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MaDeuce, Thank you for sharing the info on the armored cars. It is much more reasonable than I thought it would be. I agree with you that while it might be convenient, having an amored car pull up in front of your building can certainly bring unwanted attention. They probably wouldn't let you stop by and pick up at their shop with your own truck, would they? Sorry if I strayed from a direct answer to the original question you posed. I think it is an excellent question and one which concerns many of us. Even us small farmers ponder where we can source the most coin for the least cost and can benefit from a free exchange of ideas here. I think the industry with the highest use of coin would be the retail industry, especially grocery stores. But they might not generate the scale of coin you are looking for. You might strike up a conversation with your friendly bank teller and ask her what industries are their heaviest hitters for coin.
"Preserving coinage.. 2 tons at a time"
HoardCode0.1:M48/14USCA:US1Cu639700:US5Ni2400:CA5Ni46 |
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just carl
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
601 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2007 : 14:37:59
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Naturally becoming close to a bank teller will get you valuable coins only on a small scale. If you really want to have a buisness that is a coin usage buisness, have you thought of a laundromat? I met a coin dealer at a coin show that said he had 5 laundromats. He said he estimates about $5,000 a week in just rare coinage that he sells on ebay or at coin shows. This is aside from the money he makes with the laundromat machines. Example is he has washing machines, dryers, vending machines with soaps, bleaches, pop & candy and all take coins. And he writes off his cars, part of his house all for buisness.
Carl |
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NiBullionCu
Penny Pincher Member
USA
168 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2007 : 15:19:35
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just carl said:
"He said he estimates about $5,000 a week in just rare coinage that he sells on ebay or at coin shows.
I call BS
No one is finding thousands in rare coins in vending machines... |
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Tourney64
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1035 Posts |
Posted - 07/24/2007 : 16:17:26
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It's getting real deep in here. $1,000/week in rare coinage per laundromat is pretty ridiculous. Of course if the people using the laundromat are into stealing rare coins and then using them in the laundromat for laundry, then it could be possible.
BTW ...still waiting on those great stock tips Just Carl. |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2007 : 13:19:30
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MaDeuce, you certianly have raised a tough problem, "who deals in such large quantities of pennies", that is not something we small time coin hoarders consider.
I would think that the bigger the store/chain, the more pennies they deal with, though the larger chains might not be willing to part with their cents unless a very compelling financial arguement could be made and to the right person (retail businesses, much like governments, have red tape bureaucracy that ties up good ideas.)
I suspect that even if you could present the evidence of how your purchasing of cents would save the company the expense of rolling and depositing the coins, the loss of the expense of coin rolling would have to be explained somewhere to somebody, and the somebody in question (the top brass) might want to know why this is being done, is there anything illegal going on, will this loss of expense have any effect on tax deductions for the company, etc (like I said, there's bureaucracy everywhere you look.)
Maybe the goal is to find multiple sources of coins instead of just one, deal with several small & mid sized companies instead of just one big company. The smaller companies might be more than willing to hear you out on saving an expense for them rahter than getting the runaround from one large dealer in cents. Also, if you have just one source of cents and that source ends the flow of coins for you, you have to start all over again looking for a new large source of coins.
Perhaps you need to turn the question around and ask "where do consumers take their coins to spend?" or "Which consumers are most likely to spend coins instead of dumping them into coinstar?". tough questions indeed, wish I had an answer for you.
Would Coinstar sell cents if you could find the right VP to talk to?
I should have chosen "Cut-n-Paste" as a forum name, since that is what I do, mostly. |
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just carl
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
601 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2007 : 16:43:57
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First of all not to be insulting but readers are leaders. Like I said the person I was referring to has 5 laundromats. He is a coin dealer on weekends and also sells on ebay and other web sites. In some areas here around Chicago, the coins you find in laundromat or many other vending machines come from numerous sourses. Very, very unfortunately some of those sources are not legitamate. Many, many robberies of coin collections are spent as normal coinage. In an area where there are 50,000 cars stolen per year, 600 to 700 or more murders per year reported that is, untold amount of robberies and this is only in the city limits and what is reported. Add in the suburbs and you have an awful lot of valuable coins being spent as normal currency daily.
Another item is in some areas where there are many people out of work, the money they spend in laundromats comes from an old jar, can, box that was saved for a rainy day. Laundromats are also a great place to dump coinage you are not sure of what it is and if it works in a machine, great. People try .02, .03, .20 cent pieces since some think they are fakes. The people in some of our not so nice areas have little knowledge of coinage values. Only that is spends and where it comes from it not to important. There are many coins that sell for thousands of dollars on ebay all the time.
An example is almost any Standing Liberty Quarters sell for a minimum of $3 in the poorest possible condition and some sell for as much as $20,000. These turn up in washing machines more than any one would suspect.
Carl |
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just carl
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
601 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2007 : 16:54:46
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It's getting real deep in here. $1,000/week in rare coinage per laundromat is pretty ridiculous. Of course if the people using the laundromat are into stealing rare coins and then using them in the laundromat for laundry, then it could be possible.
BTW ...still waiting on those great stock tips Just Carl.
As to stock tips, you have to be kidding. I've tripled my account at TDAmeritrade this year. If eveyone buys and sells the same stocks, then it becomes he who gets there first wins. No thanks, I'll just keep on winning myself.
As to the amount made at a laundromat, you obviouly do not have any experience in the Chicago area. It is a shame to say most of that comes from stolen collections, but it happens every day here.
Carl |
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Sources of pennies and nickels
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