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n/a
deleted
478 Posts |
 Posted - 07/03/2007 : 18:15:22
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People telling you that canadian nickles from the '70's and '80s are made from pure nickel are wrong. I work in the welding industry and have worked with pure nickel extensively. Pure nickel will not attract a magnet. Candian nickels will...and very strongly.
Better check your resources because someone is BS-ing you.
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
 Posted - 07/03/2007 : 19:44:13
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If anyone knows more about this please post.
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Nickel is a silvery white metal that takes on a high polish. It belongs to the transition metals, and is hard and ductile. It occurs most usually in combination with sulfur and iron in pentlandite, with sulfur in millerite, with arsenic in the mineral niccolite, and with arsenic and sulfur in nickel glance.
Because of its permanence in air and its inertness to oxidation, it is used in coins, for plating iron, brass, etc., for chemical apparatus, and in certain alloys, such as German silver. It is magnetic, and is very frequently accompanied by cobalt, both being found in meteoric iron. It is chiefly valuable for the alloys it forms, especially many superalloys, and particularly stainless steel.
Nickel is one of the five ferromagnetic elements. However, the U.S. "nickel" coin is not magnetic, because it actually is mostly (75%) copper. The Canadian nickel minted at various periods between 1922-81 was 99.9% nickel, and these were magnetic.
The most common oxidation state of nickel is +2, though 0, +1, +3 and +4 Ni complexes are observed. It is also thought that a +6 oxidation state may exist, however, results are inconclusive.
The unit cell of nickel is a face centred cube with a lattice parameter of 0.356 nm giving a radius of the atom of 0.126 nm.
Nickel-62 is the most stable nuclide of all the existing elements; it is more stable even than Iron-56.
Magnetic ordering ferromagnetic
Electrical resistivity (20 °C) 69.3 nÙ·m
Thermal conductivity (300 K) 90.9 W·m#8722;1·K#8722;1
Thermal expansion (25 °C) 13.4 µm·m#8722;1·K#8722;1
Speed of sound (thin rod) (r.t.) 4900 m·s#8722;1
Young's modulus 200 GPa
Shear modulus 76 GPa
Bulk modulus 180 GPa
Poisson ratio 0.31
Mohs hardness 4.0
Vickers hardness 638 MPa
Brinell hardness 700 MPa
CAS registry number
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Fanaticism is doubling one's efforts, yet forgetting one's purpose.
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 19:59:20
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Re: Magnets attract some objects, but not others, Why?
Date: Fri Mar 27 21:21:40 1998
Posted By: Erin Cram, Grad student, Molecular and Cellular Biology, University of CA, Berkeley
Area of science: Science History
ID: 889130365.Sh
Message:
Juan,
Maybe the reason nobody has answered your question for a few weeks is
that it's a hard one! But let me try...
Have you ever heard of a ferromagnetic metal? That is a type of metal that responds strongly to magnetic fields. There are only a few of them - some are common metals, like iron, cobalt, and nickel.
Others are very rare, and have funny names like gadolinium, Terbium, Dysprosium, and Holmium. Anyway, almost all magnets are made out of these metals or mixes (alloys) of them. By the way, a nickel (the coin) is made out of 3/4 copper and only 1/4 nickel - this mixture is not very magnetic at all,
but a pure piece of nickel would be.
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Where Nickel is Used
Nickel, Nickel Everywhere
Nickel Institute Reprint Series No. 14048
Reprinted from Materials World, September 1998
Nickel is found in the first transition series of elements in the periodic table, and this position gives rise to its metallurgical make-up:
has a high melting point of 1453°C
forms an adherent oxide film
resists corrosion by alkalis
is face-centred cubic, conferring ductility
forms alloys readily, both as solute and solvent
is ferromagnetic at room temperature
is readily deposited by electroplating
exhibits catalytic behaviour
If any one would know, the Nickel Institute should know if nickel is magnetic or not.
Could it be that the nickel you weld with may have be a nickel alloy with an addition of some other metal to render the nickel non-magnetic? It is said that stainless steel loses its magnetic properties when a high content of chrome is added. Maybe it is the same with nickel?
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a little vanadium helps eliminate the magnetic properties that can occur with pure nickel.
I am not sure if this applies to soldering/micro soldering techniques or for full sized welding, but worth a mention.
I should have chosen "Cut-n-Paste" as a forum name, since that is what I do, mostly. |
Edited by - pencilvanian on 07/03/2007 20:56:17 |
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Gresham
Penny Pincher Member
184 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 20:21:41
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| Well to get some hard and fast results of how whether nickel is strongly attracted to ordinary magnets, I'm going to test this with some pure elemental nickel shot. |
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n/a
deleted
478 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 22:14:44
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| nickle is slightly magnetic. nothing close to iron or steel. your canadian nickle is not pure nickle. No way in hell. |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2007 : 23:49:44
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I am not going to argue the point since Canadian Nickels are not so easily available to me, though I will state this:
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I bought a container of Tech-Rod 141 nickel core electrodes a year ago at an auction. The composition per the manufacturer is 97.6% nickel and 0.35% iron. Could be the iron is increasing the magnetic attraction of the welding rod (the magnet does stick to the rods) There was a post on the periodic tables
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canadian dimes and quarters tested had anywhere from 0.03% to 0.24% iron in them with the majority of the metal as nickel.
Maybe the iron is increasing the magnetic capabilites of Canadian Coins?
The poster from the elemetial tables covers himself with the following-
"XRF tests of the surface of a coin have many potential sources of error, but on the other hand pronouncements on the official website of a mint may not always correspond exactly to what raw materials their suppliers sold them in any given year."
Agian, could be majority nickel and small minority iron to create the magnetic pull of Canadian Coins.
I should have chosen "Cut-n-Paste" as a forum name, since that is what I do, mostly. |
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MaDeuce
Penny Pincher Member
USA
124 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 15:21:04
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On a related note, I have found Canadian nickels within a given year to be both magnetic and non-magnetic. By this I mean out of a group of ten 1986 nickels, for example, some will be magnetic and some will not be. Yet, per the RCM, all coins were made with the same metal. How can this be?
I have an acquaintance that I'm going to send some samples to. He has a small handheld spectrometer that he can do a quick analysis with. It will be interesting to see what he reports. I'll pass the info along when I get it.
BTW, a good while ago, I had pre-82 CDN nickels tested in a similar manner. One test came back with 99%+ nickel; the other said 1.75% Zn, 0.075% molybdenum, with the rest nickel (this is equivalent to Hastelloy D).
From what I've seen both in the US and in Canada, the mints appear to vary alloy content somewhat within a given year, even though they do not disclose that fact. I know of at least one other person that came to the same conclusion independently of me regarding certain US coins.
MaDeuce |
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 18:18:07
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Thank you all for maintaining cool heads during this discussion. I'm always open to consider new information or opinions about this subject or any other subject presented here. I'll reserve judgement on the subject for now.
A thread related to this discussion was posted here a while back. I'll post the link to it for those who may not have seen it.
You must be logged in to see this link.
****************
Fanaticism is doubling one's efforts, yet forgetting one's purpose.
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cakesea
Penny Sorter Member
51 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2007 : 19:42:16
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nickel iron gadalinium cobalt are the only elements that can be magnetized. if you pass enough electrical current through any element that can be magnetized you can make that element a magnet this may explain the nickel situation. hope this helps
cake |
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Ryedale
Administrator
USA
523 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 00:10:53
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This blew my mind originally too, however I did some research, and found that a number of "elements" are ferromagnetic.
heres the text from Wikipedia. A good search for "magnetic elements" shows many other hits with "scientific" data
Magnetic metallic elements
Many materials have unpaired electron spins, but the majority of these materials are paramagnetic. When the spins interact with each other in such a way that the spins align spontaneously, the materials are called ferromagnetic (what is often loosely termed as "magnetic"). Due to the way their regular crystalline atomic structure causes their spins to interact, some metals are (ferro)magnetic when found in their natural states, as ores. These include iron ore (magnetite or lodestone), cobalt and nickel, as well the rare earth metals gadolinium and dysprosium (when at a very low temperature). Such naturally occurring (ferro)magnets were used in the first experiments with magnetism. Technology has since expanded the availability of magnetic materials to include various manmade products, all based, however, on naturally magnetic elements.
Here is a link with some good magnetism information
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the periodic chart shows NI as ferromagnetic.
Enjoy
Ryedale
Hoard Copper Pennies,
The market will develop |
Edited by - Ryedale on 07/05/2007 00:16:47 |
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Canadian_Nickle
Penny Hoarding Member
Canada
938 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 00:36:34
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All I know is that the RCM is the finest refiner in the world. We invented .9999 process silver/gold bullion. The only reason I can think of for impurities would be some sort of "fingerprint" composition with a trace of other elemnts to help identify nickel bars produced as a result of illegally melting the coins.
________________________
"A nickel's nothing to scoff at."
C. Montgomery Burns
HoardCode0.1: M28/5CAON:CA5Ni35000:CA1Cu1200:CA100Ag345:
CA10Ag250:CA50Ag100:CA25Ag30:CA500Ag48:US100Ag20:CA1000Ag16
How to read a HoardCode:
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NiBullionCu
Penny Pincher Member
USA
168 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 15:33:28
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Sorry CuproNickle, but pure Ni is magnetic.
If you are buying "pure" nickel rods you better call your supplier and ask why they aren't attracted by a magnet.
As you alloy nickel with non-magnetic materials it will become non-magnetic.
Here is a link to a supplier selling nickel-alloy wire:
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You'll notice that their description of their 99% pure Ni wire is magnetic.
Notice that 72% Ni wire is non-magnetic.
Perhaps CuproNickle you could supply the part# and mfg of the nickel rods you are using? |
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Gresham
Penny Pincher Member
184 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2007 : 20:28:46
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| Found some pure nickel powder (Not shot as I hoped, but 99.9%), and it behaves just like my 99.9% Canadian nickels. |
Edited by - Gresham on 07/06/2007 10:39:58 |
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Canadian_Nickle
Penny Hoarding Member
Canada
938 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2007 : 00:57:26
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so you can make really expensive versions of those old iron filing magnet arts.
________________________
"A nickel's nothing to scoff at."
C. Montgomery Burns
HoardCode0.1: M28/5CAON:CA5Ni35000:CA1Cu1200:CA100Ag345:
CA10Ag250:CA50Ag100:CA25Ag30:CA500Ag48:US100Ag20:CA1000Ag16
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just carl
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
601 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2007 : 17:44:31
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Any material can be used as a magnet. Any material can be made into a magnet. Basically magnitism is not truely understood just as gravity is not understood. We know it's there, know how to make it or use it but no one really knows what it is for real. We are aware of the molecular structures that change to align themselves in particular ways to create a magnetic attraction but no one really knows what the thing called magnitism is for sure. Now as an example of materials that can be made into a magnet that do not contain Iron check out what may be the strongest natural magnets called AlNiCo. It is a combination of Aluminum, Nickel and Cobalt and is many, many times stronger than iron as a magnet and no one really knows why. Even non metalic materials can be made into a magnet through an eletromagnetic type system.
Anyway to say something is magnetic or not is just a term used loosely. I do like that Wikipedia wegb site though. I also noted it was copied well here but just a reference would have been sufficient. I doubt the vast majority of people understood the technical contents but now know Nickel is magnetic.
Carl |
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MaDeuce
Penny Pincher Member
USA
124 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2007 : 22:27:49
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This has really been bugging me, as I could not recall the specifics of the magnetic/non-magnetic nickels from the same year. I pulled out my Canadian coin collection this evening. I keep five coins of every year pretty much from 1927 through 2006 that I have personally pulled from circulation. There are a few holes in the collection (e.g., what the hell is up with 1970?), but that is fodder for another numismatic topic.
Anyway, I did find coins that behave as I described in my post of 7/4. Specifically, I have four 2006 nickels that ARE magnetic and one 2006 that IS NOT magnetic. Has anybody else seen anything like this? I'm pretty sure I've seen it in other years as well, but I had not previously paid much attention to it.
I will send these off tomorrow for spectrographic tests. I should have results back by the end of the week, which I'll share back with the list.
It's an interesting issue; I may have to break down and call someone at the mint to see what they have to say about it.
MaDeuce |
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Canadian_Nickle
Penny Hoarding Member
Canada
938 Posts |
Posted - 07/16/2007 : 22:47:38
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2006 has both CuNi nickels and steel nickels (running change)
________________________
"A nickel's nothing to scoff at."
C. Montgomery Burns
HoardCode0.1: M28/5CAON:CA5Ni35000:CA1Cu1200:CA100Ag345:
CA10Ag250:CA50Ag100:CA25Ag30:CA500Ag48:US100Ag20:CA1000Ag16
How to read a HoardCode:
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MaDeuce
Penny Pincher Member
USA
124 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2007 : 10:44:26
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Thanks Canadian_Nickle. I'd been working off the Wikipedia page, which is obviously wrong. I recall reading somewhere that the Wikipedia pages on Canadian coins had errors, but I don't recall where; guess this is one of them. Can you recommend a better, more accurate, comprehensive source of similar info on Canadian coins?
Over the weekend, I put all the Wikipedia info on Canadian and US coins in a spreadsheet. It allows one to input metal prices and see how they affect the bullion value of the coinage. I was going to make it available to readers of this site, but I hate to do it until I remove any such errors from it.
MaDeuce |
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Ryedale
Administrator
USA
523 Posts |
Posted - 07/17/2007 : 11:28:25
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you may be aware of this, but coinflation has a Canadian page. However as you stated the accuracy may be off depending on the year/metal content etc.
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Ryedale
Hoard Copper Pennies,
The market will develop |
Edited by - Ryedale on 07/17/2007 11:30:01 |
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MaDeuce
Penny Pincher Member
USA
124 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2007 : 01:16:45
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Alec, the owner of the coinflation pages, was kind enough to give me pointers to the RCM pages that spell out the composition of Canadian coinage. Thought I'd pass it along... I'm putting together a spreadsheet that has the composition of US and Canadian coins and lets one play with base/precious metal prices to see how they affect coin value. Once I feel like I've gotten the spreadsheet built without error, I'll post a link so that you, my fellow aficionados on this site, can play with it.
Here's what Alec provided:
Hi Kenneth,
I agree, the Canadian Mint website is difficult to navigate.
Go to You must be logged in to see this link. , click on "The Passion" , click on "Our Coins" , click on "Circulation Currency" , then for each coin click on "Technical Specifications".
I too found many websites with inconsistent composition information for Canadian coins. It's also been suggested that the Mint information is wrong... but I'm sticking with their specs as the credible source since they actually made the coins.
Regards,
Alec
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Pure Nickle is NOT magnetic.
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