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AGgressive Metal
Administrator
USA
1937 Posts |
 Posted - 05/15/2009 : 15:56:49
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This story is out of England, but it probably would be about the same if you did a similar study in the US. I blame three things:
1. People subconsciously or consciously know there is a govt safety net if they loose their jobs.
2. A consumer culture/mindset encouraged by advertising and govt
3. Horribly low interest payments on savings caused by cheap credit from the central banks.
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And he that hath lyberte ought to kepe hit wel / For nothyng is better than lyberte / For lyberte shold not be wel sold for alle the gold and syluer of all the world.
-Caxton's edition of Aesop's Fables, 1484 |
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Country
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
3121 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2009 : 13:04:39
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| I believe the mindset of the public is changing from rampant consumerism to moderate savers. The shaking up of many of the world economies has caused many to be cautious when spending, I know I have changed my spending habits. I believe a recent survey showed the US public is now saving about 4% of income, opposed to the negative savings rate during the Republican Bush administration. In years past, a normal amount of saving was in the 10% range. It's possible that level of saving could be reached again. |
---> Come to the new and improved realcent: http://realcent.org
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
Theodore Roosevelt
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keys
Penny Collector Member
383 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2009 : 14:29:14
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"More than a third could not survive on savings if they lost their jobs"
That is where the term JOB comes from-
Just
Over
Broke
Another piece of the low savings rate puzzle was the idea of a " savings glut" going on in Asia. The concept was Asians save too much so Americans don't have to save at all, the banks and US Government can just tap into that overseas savings and there would be no problem-
until Asians decide they can't or won't buy US Debt or allow their savings to go to the US but would be better used in their own region (a little detail the 'savings glut' theory overlooked.)
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I change with the times-
but like silver coins found in your change
I stay the same.
*****************
The United States of America started out as the new Republic of Rome.
Will The United States of America end up as the New Imperial Rome? |
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fb101
Administrator
USA
2856 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2009 : 16:17:45
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The savings rate in this country went to abysmal when they started really taxing savings.
After Federal and state taxes, and inflation. the results were a negative. It made more sense to
spend than save. Unfortunately, that scenario still exists.
Many people figured that out in 1979 when we had a peanut as a president and 15% inflation.
Wasn't our current president promising to untax interest on the first 100K of earnings?
Oh that's right, that was a campaign promise which so far he's done the opposite on almost every one. |
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highroller4321
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2648 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2009 : 16:30:12
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| I think the number is a lot higher than a 1/3! |
Copper Penny Investing
www.portlandmint.com |
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Country
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
3121 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2009 : 18:05:56
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quote:
Originally posted by fb101
Wasn't our current president promising to untax interest on the first 100K of earnings?
Oh that's right, that was a campaign promise which so far he's done the opposite on almost every one.
That's BS !!  I don't remember any campaign promise by our President Obama to untax interest on the first 100K of earnings.
See the link below and you will know every campaign promise that was kept, what are being worked on, and some that were not kept. The link below delineates campaign promises in the area of taxes, but you can research other areas you may have an interest on this website.
You must be logged in to see this link. |
---> Come to the new and improved realcent: http://realcent.org
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
Theodore Roosevelt
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fb101
Administrator
USA
2856 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2009 : 19:47:06
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Sorry, just wanted to test your debating skills.
I won't be getting into any political debates with you. |
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Delawhere Jack
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1680 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2009 : 19:41:54
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quote:
Originally posted by fb101
Sorry, just wanted to test your debating skills.
I won't be getting into any political debates with you.
Now FB! You're going to go and get yourself on more lists if you keep "dissin'" The Annointed One. 
BTW, the savings rates declined not only due to the tax and inflation disincentives to save, but also due to easy credit. Easy credit also paved the way for price increases on those items bought on time. Notice how car payment terms went from 3yrs to 4, then 5 and in some cases 6 years?
When I bought the one and only new car I've ever owned, I told the dealer I wanted the bare bones base model (Hey, I was 18 and only making about $7FRN/hr). The salesman asked about a radio, I said show me what you've got. Base radio, $500FRN, or "only $13FRN/month" as he pointed out. I passed, and instead installed a much better unit and speakers for $300FRN, no interest, thank-you-very-much!
I can't tell you how many horses-a$$es I see all summer long tooling around on Harley's that came with 7 YEAR LOANS!!! It's a MOTORCYCLE FOR G@D SAKE! Two wheels, some steel tubing, the worst engine design in history, some wire, leather and chrome! Best of all, you can only ride 6 months out of the year around here.
Final point, then I'll stop rambling. Some knucklehead I work with bought a Harley and had it for two years, til he and the wife decided to move from their condo to a single family home. She made him sell the bike (I won't go into who wears the pants, she's 110lbs of woman that I wouldn't want to cross...). Anyway, he sells the bike at a $5,000FRN loss. Bought for $14k sold for $9k. One day he's busting my chops about buying PM's. I asked him how many miles he had put on the bike. About 900 he says......
5 bucks a mile.....not counting gas, insurance, registration....
He doesn't question my financial judgement any longer... cause he knows I'll give him the $5 dollar smack-down! 
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"Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty." Thomas Jefferson
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jadedragon
Administrator
Canada
3788 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2009 : 01:19:28
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| Conservitive Govt in Canada just rolled out the Tax Free Savings Account. $5000 a year can go in and there are no taxes on the account or on withdrawal. No deduction for contributions - you put in tax paid dollars. This should help Canadian's saving rates. |
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. George Bernard Shaw.
Why Copper Bullion ~~~ Interview with Silver Bullion Producer Market Harmony
Passive Income blog |
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swusc
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
553 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2009 : 07:08:36
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That bike cost $6 a mile based on assuming he paid $400 in all that other stuff... $7 a mile if cost $1300 (which is more likely)
:)
The system is build on debt. That is the whole point, which is always overlooked by the main stream. What is a FRN? A non interesting bearing note from the U.S. government (issued through a government bank fully owned by the U.S. government outside a few interest bearing issues). What is that money market account? A bunch of short term debt.
The whole money supply is debt. You currently have the private sector defaulting on debt and the government sector trying to borrow enough to still create inflation.
Just wait until the government has to start taxing for these programs. They might can just borrow/print now, but at some point the economy isn't going to let them do that. Then we will get another down economy due to overtaxation.
Bush was an idiot. McCain wasn't going to be any better and likely worse. Obama makes Bush look smart on the economy. We are screwed. Iraq and the war on terror has screwed our country by giving us the current government, so in a way... we lost the war since the other sides just want to hurt us badly.
-SWUSC |
`Everybody is ignorant. Only on different subjects.' Will Rogers
"This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the "hidden" confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists' antagonism toward the gold standard." Alan Greenspan, 1966. |
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swusc
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
553 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2009 : 07:15:54
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Just to add.
We currently are borrowing around $1 for every tax dollar received. That means all taxes would need to almost double!!
Just think about what the economy would look like if FICA was 30.8% vs 15.4% in total. Business and Income taxes were doubled. Gas Tax doubled. Energy taxes doubled!
We just can't do what Obama wants. His budget is a joke. He uses estimates that are no way in Hell going to happen. I have a better chance of winning the powerball than his estimates have of working.
I mean the SP500 is worth 10,000 vs its current 900ish. If you take the current earnings growth and change it to like 30% for the next 20 years then you would get some stupid numbers too.
-SWUSC |
`Everybody is ignorant. Only on different subjects.' Will Rogers
"This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the "hidden" confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists' antagonism toward the gold standard." Alan Greenspan, 1966. |
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swusc
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
553 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2009 : 08:01:48
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Before I start working...
I want to point out a few problems with nationalized health care.
1. If we have nationalized health care, then we are by estimates that I have read somewhere around 100,000 doctors short. We don't put out anywhere near that number of doctors a year in this country. You might can increase class sizes 10%, but that is only going to add around 1000-2000 more a year. Plus it takes a long time to be an attending-- 4 years college, 4 years of medical school, and then 2-6 years residency. Then after that... a lot of doctor's have to do a fellowship. That shortfall is easy to fix.
2. Now that we see that we don't have the doctors for this plan. We can attempt to fix this problem by pushing down work onto nurse practitioner or Dr. Nurses as they like to be called, PAs, and RNs along with still having some major waiting list. The quality of care is going to suffer and this going to cause a secondary market, where the rich pay for services to avoid this nightmare. So now the rich are going to take doctors out of the market for everyone else for their own healthcare service. That is going to make it worse for the normal Joe.
3. This one shows a lack of thought on the current administration. We have this shortage, and they want to raise taxes on people making over $250k. Now do you think that is going to make those doctors work more hours or less hours? Go ahead and add a few months to that two year waiting list on that elective surgery.
The problem is we don't have the resources to do nationalized healthcare. We either are going to hand out care using money or waiting list. Waiting lists are going to cause a black market or secondary market. It is going to be middle class that suffers and I am not totally sold on who wins other than big corporations (and the doctors which I am cool with).
-SWUSC
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`Everybody is ignorant. Only on different subjects.' Will Rogers
"This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the "hidden" confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists' antagonism toward the gold standard." Alan Greenspan, 1966. |
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horgad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1641 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2009 : 09:04:43
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National health care can be as simple as creating national health insurance. In the US the insurance companies eat up about 15% of the money spent on health care. In Canada the system eats up about .5% and is considered (rightfully so) very inefficient and full of the usually government bungling.
So your choice is to spend $115 on $100 worth of medical care and have $15 go to greedy corporate middle men whose only purpose in life is make a profit by pushing some papers around or to spend $100.50 on $100 worth of medical care and have 50 cents go to some bungling bureaucrats.
Of course ideally there would be no middle men and we would all pay $100 for $100 worth of service.
In short, socialized medicine stinks. Capitalistic medicine controlled by big insurance companies stinks 30 times worse ($15 / .50).
These simple numbers, to me, speak louder than all the political rhetoric that has been spoken on the subject for the last 50 years. |
Edited by - horgad on 05/18/2009 09:07:17 |
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swusc
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
553 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2009 : 09:47:41
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Well assuming those numbers are right which I will give you.
The middle and upper class are going to pay a lot more than $100.50 for $100 of care. They are going to pay their $100.50 and their share of those that pay nothing.
Now that those that pay nothing can get all the care they want... they will want more. So you will pay more for worse coverage.
I will be a doctor, so I don't care. I will be better off with U.S. Taxpayer paying me for everything. Taxpayer will be worse off.
-SWUSC |
`Everybody is ignorant. Only on different subjects.' Will Rogers
"This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the "hidden" confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists' antagonism toward the gold standard." Alan Greenspan, 1966. |
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keys
Penny Collector Member
383 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2009 : 16:22:00
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Not to knock the Canadian Healthcare System, but when it comes to bureaucratic bungling the Canadian Government can't hold a candle to American Bureaucratic bungling ($600 toilet seats for the military, medicare fraud, etc.)
Footnote:
Medical tourism for the rich already exists for those who have the money and want top quality care outside the US.
Expect medical tourism to increase under the nationwide healthcare plan.
Back to US Savings Rate-
Compare the rate of inflation measured over one particular year
(use official inflation rate or shadowstats.com inflation rate, take your pick)
and compare the interest rates paid by banks during the same year.
Interest earned tends to be lower than the inflation rate. Hence, a saver is losing money on the deal due to inflation.
Factor in income taxes and it is a losing proposition. |
I change with the times-
but like silver coins found in your change
I stay the same.
*****************
The United States of America started out as the new Republic of Rome.
Will The United States of America end up as the New Imperial Rome? |
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buyingsilvers
Penny Collector Member
441 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2009 : 16:42:14
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| 4% savings is still pathetically low. |
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AGgressive Metal
Administrator
USA
1937 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2009 : 21:25:50
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quote:
Originally posted by horgad
National health care can be as simple as creating national health insurance. In the US the insurance companies eat up about 15% of the money spent on health care. In Canada the system eats up about .5% and is considered (rightfully so) very inefficient and full of the usually government bungling.
So your choice is to spend $115 on $100 worth of medical care and have $15 go to greedy corporate middle men whose only purpose in life is make a profit by pushing some papers around or to spend $100.50 on $100 worth of medical care and have 50 cents go to some bungling bureaucrats.
Of course ideally there would be no middle men and we would all pay $100 for $100 worth of service.
In short, socialized medicine stinks. Capitalistic medicine controlled by big insurance companies stinks 30 times worse ($15 / .50).
These simple numbers, to me, speak louder than all the political rhetoric that has been spoken on the subject for the last 50 years.
How can you possibly call the US system capitalism - 50% of the population already gets their healthcare from Uncle Sam, paid for off the backs of everyone else. Uncle Sam then underpays and the insured have to foot the remainder through higher rates. In other words, we don't have a free market at all, or else costs would be going down just like the free market does with electronics, food, etc. |
And he that hath lyberte ought to kepe hit wel / For nothyng is better than lyberte / For lyberte shold not be wel sold for alle the gold and syluer of all the world.
-Caxton's edition of Aesop's Fables, 1484 |
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AGgressive Metal
Administrator
USA
1937 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2009 : 21:28:43
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quote:
Originally posted by swusc
Well assuming those numbers are right which I will give you.
The middle and upper class are going to pay a lot more than $100.50 for $100 of care. They are going to pay their $100.50 and their share of those that pay nothing.
Or what if you don't get sick at all? You will be paying thousands of dollars for the medical costs of welfare loafers, drug addicts, illegal immigrants, government employees, etc - just like we already are forced to do in the US, but on an even grander scale. Socialism is inherently evil because it's fundamental principle is THEFT. |
And he that hath lyberte ought to kepe hit wel / For nothyng is better than lyberte / For lyberte shold not be wel sold for alle the gold and syluer of all the world.
-Caxton's edition of Aesop's Fables, 1484 |
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fb101
Administrator
USA
2856 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2009 : 21:33:08
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| Go AG! You got it right. Too many of these people think they're playing Robin Hood. But his' primary occupation was thief! |
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horgad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1641 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2009 : 07:45:05
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quote:
Originally posted by AGgressive Metal
quote:
Originally posted by horgad
National health care can be as simple as creating national health insurance. In the US the insurance companies eat up about 15% of the money spent on health care. In Canada the system eats up about .5% and is considered (rightfully so) very inefficient and full of the usually government bungling.
So your choice is to spend $115 on $100 worth of medical care and have $15 go to greedy corporate middle men whose only purpose in life is make a profit by pushing some papers around or to spend $100.50 on $100 worth of medical care and have 50 cents go to some bungling bureaucrats.
Of course ideally there would be no middle men and we would all pay $100 for $100 worth of service.
In short, socialized medicine stinks. Capitalistic medicine controlled by big insurance companies stinks 30 times worse ($15 / .50).
These simple numbers, to me, speak louder than all the political rhetoric that has been spoken on the subject for the last 50 years.
How can you possibly call the US system capitalism - 50% of the population already gets their healthcare from Uncle Sam, paid for off the backs of everyone else. Uncle Sam then underpays and the insured have to foot the remainder through higher rates. In other words, we don't have a free market at all, or else costs would be going down just like the free market does with electronics, food, etc.
Agree 100%. I meant to put "Capitalistic medicine" in quotes to show that they were not my feelings, but rather they were what most people think we have. People in the US like to brag about how great our Capitalistic system is when in fact Capitilism is nothing but a distance memory in many, many areas. |
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horgad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1641 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2009 : 07:59:29
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quote:
Originally posted by swusc
Well assuming those numbers are right which I will give you.
The middle and upper class are going to pay a lot more than $100.50 for $100 of care. They are going to pay their $100.50 and their share of those that pay nothing.
Now that those that pay nothing can get all the care they want... they will want more. So you will pay more for worse coverage.
I will be a doctor, so I don't care. I will be better off with U.S. Taxpayer paying me for everything. Taxpayer will be worse off.
-SWUSC
Good point. Those figures would be averages in both cases. Those in the US now without insurance or money are paying $0 for $100 of medical care (when they can get it). So somebody in the US must be paying far more than $115 for $100. And that would not change under a national insurance program. Somebody would still be paying for somebody else...just the administration costs, middle man bloat, would go down.
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AGgressive Metal
Administrator
USA
1937 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2009 : 23:35:18
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| The biggest problem of all with government monopolized and controlled medicine is that the individual has no control of their own fate. You are put on a list and cannot contract with other individuals to get what you want when you want it. It is a total loss of personal soveriegnty. I know my dad would be dead if he wasn't able to demand the treatment he knew he needed when he needed it (he understands medicine because he defends doctors in litigation frequently, and when he had a heart attack he was reading the charts and lab reports and told the doctors to do an operation that they didnt want to do originally, and he was right and lived - if he had been in Canada they would have told him to "shut up the government doctor knows best - you'll get the care the government wants to give". Then he would have snuffed it). I'll be damned if I let the government tell my family what procedures they are going to recieve - that is why wealthy Canadians come to America for standard treatment and why wealthy Americans go to Mexico if they want alternative treatment. |
And he that hath lyberte ought to kepe hit wel / For nothyng is better than lyberte / For lyberte shold not be wel sold for alle the gold and syluer of all the world.
-Caxton's edition of Aesop's Fables, 1484 |
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The savings rate is abysmal
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