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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
 Posted - 04/12/2007 : 19:45:19
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The specific gravity of a metal or alloy is merely the weight in grams of one cubic centimeter. When it is more convenient to work in troy weights, the number of ounces per cubic inch of any metal or alloy may be found by multiplying its specific gravity by the constant 0.52686.
Melting Point and Weights of Various Metals and Alloys
Metal Symbol Melting Point ºF Melting Point ºC Specific Gravity Weight in Troy Ozs/Cu In
Aluminum Al 1220 660 2.70 1.423
Antimony Sb 1167 630 6.62 3.448
Beryllium Be 2340 1280 1.82 0.959
Bismuth Bi 520 271 9.80 5.163
Cadmium Cd 610 321 8.65 4.557
Carbon C - - 2.22 1.170
Chromium Cr 3430 1890 7.19 3.788
Cobalt Co 2723 1495 8.90 8.900
Copper Cu 1981 1083 8.96 4.719
Gold, 24K Pure Au 1945 1063 19.32 10.180
Iridium Ir 4449 2454 22.50 11.849
Iron Fe 2802 1539 7.87 4.145
Lead Pb 621 327 11.34 5.973
Magnesium Mg 1202 650 1.75 0.917
Manganese Mn 2273 1245 7.43 3.914
Molybdenum Mo 4760 2625 10.20 5.347
Nickel Ni 2651 1455 8.90 4.691
Osmium Os 4892 2700 22.50 11.854
Palladium Pd 2831 1555 12.00 6.322
Phosphorus P 111 44 1.82 0.959
Platinum, Pure Pt 3224 1773 21.45 11.301
15% Irid Plat - 3310 1821 21.59 11.301
10% Irid Plat - 3250 1788 21.54 11.349
5% Irid Plat - 3235 1779 21.50 11.325
Rhodium Rh 3571 1966 12.44 6.553
Ruthenium Ru 4500 2500 12.20 6.428
Silicon Si 2605 1430 2.33 1.247
Silver, Pure Ag 1761 961 10.49 5.525
Silver, Sterling - 1640 893 10.36 5.457
Silver, Coin - 1615 879 10.31 5.430
Tin Sn 450 232 7.30 3.846
Zinc Zn 787 419 7.10 3.7758
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For good times to come or bad times to come, now is the time to save your copper or nickel coins.
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Ridewithme38
Penny Sorter Member
USA
79 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 20:04:43
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Wow Zinc melts away at almost half the temperature of copper? Hmm makes it look like it'd be easy to seperate the copper from the zinc cents...set the heat to 1000F and walk away
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RUNNING TOTAL: APROXIMATELY..
6000 Copper
158 wheat
63 canadian
1 Guatemala coin?(1979)and a 250gram .999 pure copper bar(Jetco USA) |
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n/a
deleted
479 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 21:09:54
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I use a MAPP gas torch to "Sweat" copper fittings when I do plumbing work.
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MAPP gas can easily melt the solder (mostly zinc) and does not melt the copper.
In order to melt copper, one would have to use something more energetic than MAPP.
Acetylene may be the only way, shy of a full fledged electric-arc furnace.
Having used MAPP gas a Lot, and Oxy-Acteylene only a little,
I think is is fair to say that it is EXPENSIVE to melt metals.
If someone else is paying the bill, or if one can achieve some economies of scale in a larger furnace melting may be profitable, but I can't see how the metal value could ever come close to the cost of the fuels needed for a backyard operation.
Perhaps if one built an elaborate device with lots of insulation to keep the heat from disappating, it might make sense.
If anyone actually goes through the process of melting or trying to melt any pennies, Please let us all know how it went.
I wouldn't mind standing corrected on this, but I have a strong hunch that the fuel cost is more than we might bargain for.
Electric Arc Furnace
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Oxy_actylene
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MAPP
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28 times 13 = 364
We cannot divide the 365.25 days of a year into eqwal parts.
We never have and never will.
We cannot even divide the 365 whole days or integer days into eqwal parts.
But we could have a year that is 364 days long.
I propose that we use a calendar made up of 13 months of 28 days each.
Then every five years we have a five day long party or holiday
that would serve the function that leap days now serve every four years. |
Edited by - n/a on 04/12/2007 21:13:24 |
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Canadian_Nickle
Penny Hoarding Member
Canada
938 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 22:34:17
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Stone hearth + wood fire + bellows is how they did it throughout the dark ages. Maybe now, while they're cheap, is a good time to buy a bunch of bellows. You can always build the stone hearths after SHTF, but I imagine well-made bellows would be harder to come by than stone.
________________________
"A nickel's nothing to scoff at."
C. Montgomery Burns
HoardCode0.1: M28/5CAON:CA5Ni35000:CA1Cu1200:CA100Ag345:
CA10Ag250:CA50Ag100:CA25Ag30:CA500Ag48:US100Ag20:CA1000Ag16
How to read a HoardCode:
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psi
Penny Collector Member
Canada
399 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 22:46:51
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| You might be able to cut down on fuel costs considerably if you had a very well-insulated setup and used the waste heat from the cooling ingots to warm up the next batch closer to the melting point. I think that if anyone here does try to melt pennies or other coins, they should avoid incriminating themselves here by not explicitly stating that they are melting coins. Talking about melting copper 'scrap' would be one workaround but if I were doing something like this I would just keep my mouth shut about it. Innuendo on internet forums may not be enough to convict but it can certainly be enough to attract unwanted attention. |
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n/a
deleted
479 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2007 : 22:51:16
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I retract the above statement,
"If anyone actually goes through the process of melting or trying to melt any pennies, Please let us all know how it went."
on the grounds that it might incriminate someone or even me.
psi is right, "don't do this at home"
I also saw that a 240 volt "glass kiln" easily capable of the unspeakable is available for $1000 with shipping and tax.
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28 times 13 = 364
We cannot divide the 365.25 days of a year into eqwal parts.
We never have and never will.
We cannot even divide the 365 whole days or integer days into eqwal parts.
But we could have a year that is 364 days long.
I propose that we use a calendar made up of 13 months of 28 days each.
Then every five years we have a five day long party or holiday
that would serve the function that leap days now serve every four years. |
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Ridewithme38
Penny Sorter Member
USA
79 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2007 : 10:30:14
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isn't it going to be legal again to melt cents tommarrow?
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RUNNING TOTAL: APROXIMATELY..
6000 Copper
158 wheat
63 canadian
1 Guatemala coin?(1979)and a 250gram .999 pure copper bar(Jetco USA) |
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n/a
deleted
59 Posts |
 Posted - 04/13/2007 : 11:13:12
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As far as I understand it:
Unless something in the Federal Register tells us otherwise, it will indeed be legal to melt again, starting tomorrow.
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One of the chief attractions of the life of the wilderness is its rugged and stalwart democracy;
there every man stands for what he actually is, and can show himself to be.
-- Theodore Roosevelt |
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horgad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1641 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2007 : 11:59:37
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To separate zinc and copper I think you would have to melt both and then oxidize the zinc and remove the zinc oxide. The other alternative is to disolve both in acid and purify using electrolysis. Of course, it might be better to just sell your copper pennies as "dirty" copper... By the way, all you need to melt copper is a gas burner...no bellows required.
To melt nickels is a bit more challenging. Nickel has a melt temp. close to iron and you need a mini cupola furnace cable of melting iron. It uses a blower out of leaf blower and burns coke. However to make one you are going to need some welding equipment and some welding skill. Again the other alternative is disolving and elctrolysis.
WSHTF Note: imagine having the skills to weld and forge metal items uses a mini cupola furnace. I don't think you would ever go hungry...
Disclaimer: I would never attempt to do any of this as long as it illegal and would never suggest that anybody else try it either...but the 14th is so close:) |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2007 : 17:31:01
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Footnote:
US Federal law prevents the melting of US Coins, it doesn't say one word about melting coins from Europe, especially obsolete coinage. Some coin dealers have a "junk" box of foreign coins for sale. If you prove you melted foreign coins (via video tape) the gub'ment would be unable to charge you with anything. Tying up the gub'ment with its own red tape is the best revenge.
I should have chosen "Cut-n-Paste" as a forum name, since that is what I do, mostly. |
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Ridewithme38
Penny Sorter Member
USA
79 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2007 : 17:46:50
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Wow Pencilvanian now i'm completely confused??
Why did the Mint have to ban melting if it was already illegal?
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RUNNING TOTAL: APROXIMATELY..
6000 Copper
158 wheat
63 canadian
1 Guatemala coin?(1979)and a 250gram .999 pure copper bar(Jetco USA) |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2007 : 18:23:39
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"Why did the Mint have to ban melting if it was already illegal?"
It was only illegal to melt US coins (per some half forgotten law still on the books dating form the 1960's, unenforced until recently), foreign coins are beyond the US Mint's jurisdiction
so you can melt foreign coins to your heart's content.
(While the Mint would like to pretend that IT has absolute authority as to what happens to coins, the Mint is under the US Treasury, and if the Treasury ever comes out and says 'go ahead and melt your coins' the mint would have to accept the decision of the Treasury, or else face a budget cut from the Treas. No, the Mint can't mint up coins to pay its own employees. The employees want a paycheck like everybody else.)
I should have chosen "Cut-n-Paste" as a forum name, since that is what I do, mostly. |
Edited by - pencilvanian on 04/13/2007 19:12:37 |
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2007 : 19:57:34
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I'm not sure if all of these melt temps are correct. Notice these for example:
Silver, Pure Ag 1761 961 10.49 5.525
Silver, Sterling - 1640 893 10.36 5.457
Silver, Coin - 1615 879 10.31 5.430
Can anyone tell me how silver coin would have a lower melt point than pure silver? As you can see in the chart above, copper (1981) in the silver coin has a much higher melt point than pure silver.
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For good times to come or bad times to come, now is the time to save your copper or nickel coins. |
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Ryedale
Administrator
USA
523 Posts |
Posted - 04/13/2007 : 23:42:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Ardent Listener
I'm not sure if all of these melt temps are correct. Notice these for example:
Silver, Pure Ag 1761 961 10.49 5.525
Silver, Sterling - 1640 893 10.36 5.457
Silver, Coin - 1615 879 10.31 5.430
Can anyone tell me how silver coin would have a lower melt point than pure silver? As you can see in the chart above, copper (1981) in the silver coin has a much higher melt point than pure silver.
************************
For good times to come or bad times to come, now is the time to save your copper or nickel coins.
My normal day job is as an HVAC (refrigeration) mechanic. We use 15 percent brazing alloy, (15 percent silver) to braze copper piping together. The majority balance in the brazing alloy is copper. The melt point is less than the copper ACR tubing and piping we are "soldering" together. Brazing alloy melts around 1400 degrees F. It seems as more metals are alloyed together, the melt point of each individual is lost, and usually lowered.
I am attaching a PDF to the JWHARRIS company website. You can look at the MSDS and SPEC sheets of all their available products here. Incidently when I bacame an apprentice in HVAC my eyes really opened up to metals, as we use these "consumables" everyday in the trade.
I really like soldering with 45 and 56 percent silver alloys. You heat quite slowly with special flux and an acetylene torch, and then that gorgeous silver just flows into the joint, and leaves a nice silvery ring with at hint of yellow in it. You can polish it up with a wire brush or file too.
Silver solder is used (45 and 56 percent silver) where you have dis-similar metals being joined together. For instance where the discharge line of a compressor couples to the carbon steel refrigerant condenser. It also works great to solder copper fittings to a brass or bronze valve etc. We have even silver brazed stainless steel occationally.
This is a perfect example of where silver is consumed, and perhaps never recovered. Before the melt ban......I wanted to try using some junk war nickels to try brazing with. The 35% silver and majority balance of copper, would perhaps have been a good "emergency" brazing alloy. Never tried it, and of course I would not now. HONEST INJUN..I Would'nt.
Here is the link to JWHARRIS. ENJOY.
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Ryedale
Hoard Copper Pennies,
The market will develop |
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Ryedale
Administrator
USA
523 Posts |
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n/a
deleted
59 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2007 : 00:05:23
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Silver-copper alloys will have lower melt temperatures than both pure silver and pure copper. See the phase diagram at:
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Note that both sterling and coin silver are above eutectic; the temps in the above post, at first glance, look consistent with the phase diagram. Melt temperature should decrease until ~35% copper and increase from there.
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One of the chief attractions of the life of the wilderness is its rugged and stalwart democracy;
there every man stands for what he actually is, and can show himself to be.
-- Theodore Roosevelt |
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n/a
deleted
479 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2007 : 10:46:28
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I learn a lot from this site.
Rydale says that silver bearing solder in th 50% range is a useful commodity.
Perhaps hoarding this solder be better than hoarding the silver itself, because it is already formulated into its most useful form.
I think that in general having things that are already in their most useful form prior to a shortage.
PS:
Rydale, Thanks for the tip, I think I'm gonna buy up some solder.
Also, I've been meaning to ask, Did you design the coin sorting machine that you sell?
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28 times 13 = 364
We cannot divide the 365.25 days of a year into eqwal parts.
We never have and never will.
We cannot even divide the 365 whole days or integer days into eqwal parts.
But we could have a year that is 364 days long.
I propose that we use a calendar made up of 13 months of 28 days each.
Then every five years we have a five day long party or holiday
that would serve the function that leap days now serve every four years. |
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Gresham
Penny Pincher Member
184 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2007 : 19:11:55
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Not all systems are the same as far as forming lower melting points. Some metal compositions don't have eutectics. A notable example is cupro-nickel.
The binary phase diagram is listed below. This is one of the simplest phase diagrams that you will ever see. It is buried toward that bottom. You must be logged in to see this link.
The brasses don't have a eutectic either. Copper/zinc alloys.
You must be logged in to see this link.
However the copper silver system does have a eutectic.
You must be logged in to see this link.
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Edited by - Gresham on 04/14/2007 19:36:31 |
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 04/14/2007 : 19:16:00
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If that is the simplest diagram I know who I'm going to call upon if I ever do the big melt.
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For good times to come or bad times to come, now is the time to save your copper or nickel coins. |
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Melting points and weights of various metals
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