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n/a
deleted
478 Posts |
 Posted - 12/28/2008 : 07:17:05
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I'm thinking of getting one of the sets. Expensive but it would pay for itself if it found even one fake gold coin. I know I bought some English gold Sov's before that look very fake to me when compared to the one I already had. Opinions appreciated.
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Edited by - n/a on 12/28/2008 08:51:17 |
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Lemon Thrower
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1588 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2008 : 07:42:44
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| seems expensive for what it does. hardly foolproof since its not checking metal content, just size, etc. also, seems like if the coin is too heavy because it has spent uranium in it then it still passes the test. those would be my concerns. |
Buying:
Peace/Morgan G+ at $15.00
copper cents at 1.3X
wheat pennies at 3X
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n/a
deleted
478 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2008 : 08:25:25
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Spent uranium? Do you know how much it costs to process spent uranium? Never heard of unranium used in fake gold coins. Most fake gold coins are gold plated lead or have less than full gold content (alloyed with things other than unranium...like lead). Size, diameter and weight plus thickness. If it doesn't pass all these tests, it's not the real thing. Simple as it gets and used all over the world by bullion dealers. A scale and calipers will do the same thing but these are a lot easier to use and foolproof.
Lots of English Sov's are made with the full gold content but are still fakes, usually made in the Middle East. You must be logged in to see this link. They will be spotted by the Fisch (weight and size test). You'd be amazed at how many English Sov's are fake. I bought two and took them back to my dealer. He claimed he didn't know they were fake until my friend proved it with the Fisch. You should have seen his face when we showed him the results. He gave me my money back. |
Edited by - n/a on 12/28/2008 08:54:51 |
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NotABigDeal
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
3890 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2008 : 10:26:13
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Just cut the coin in half....
Deal |
Live free or die.
Plain and simple.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your council or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
- Samuel Adams |
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Lemon Thrower
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1588 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2008 : 18:21:08
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quote:
Originally posted by CuproNickle
Spent uranium? Do you know how much it costs to process spent uranium? Never heard of unranium used in fake gold coins.
for bullion coins, depleted uranium has been used. aparantly this was rampant by the russians after the soviet union collapsed. it makes sense because gold is heavy and there are few metals that heavier. See this link.
You must be logged in to see this link.
now for highly collectible coins sure just use regular gold |
Buying:
Peace/Morgan G+ at $15.00
copper cents at 1.3X
wheat pennies at 3X
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n/a
deleted
478 Posts |
Posted - 12/28/2008 : 18:58:47
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| Uranium used in bullion COINS is an unproven internet MYTH. Junk science. I found NOTHING on this link that confirms uranium as being used to fake any gold coins. Wow...another web site forum post with some guy saying he heard that the Russians were making fake GOLD BARS out of uranaium and tungsten. Can you imagine the TECHNOLOGY and treasure it would take to make a FAKE gold coin in say 1/10 or 1/4 ounce by putting a tungsten slug in it and plating it with gold, plus making it the EXACT same size, thickness and atomic weight of an orginal? The costs would be more than just selling the real thing! I can't beleive I'm arguing with a conspiracy nut. You probaly think Reagan invented AIDS and Crack, the world trade center was an inside job, etc. Get some help. Signing out for good. Bye. |
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Lemon Thrower
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1588 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2008 : 05:33:48
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well you haven't proven anything and neither have I. I only offer the information to be helpful. I learned it in the context of inquiriting about why certain coins had higher premiums than others. For example, Krugerands have low premiums relative to AGE's and Maples. Part of it is taxation - .999 pure coins are exempt from sales tax in some jurisdictions - but Krugerands are .999 pure I believe. Anyway, the legend is that organized crime in Russia made the counterfeits in the early 90's. Theoretically they would have had the resources and ability to do it in a cost effective manner.
the bigger point is this seems to be an expensive tool for measuring the size of a coin. calipers could do it much more cheaply. this tool is not testing the metal content or density of the coin. |
Buying:
Peace/Morgan G+ at $15.00
copper cents at 1.3X
wheat pennies at 3X
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n/a
deleted
478 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2008 : 06:58:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Lemon Thrower
well For example, Krugerands have low premiums relative to AGE's and Maples. Part of it is taxation - .999 pure coins are exempt from sales tax in some jurisdictions - but Krugerands are .999 pure I believe.
Wrong again. The Krugerand is 22 karat gold, containing 1 full ounce of 24 karat gold, plus copper & silver alloys. 33.9 grams. The greater popularity of other bullion coins has caused its premium over content to drop over the last ten years.
Taxation? American Gold Eagles are the only bullion coin that you can buy for an IRA. I don't know what jurisdiction or taxation planet you live on but you still have to pay taxes on any profit you make when you sell them. American Eagles are also 22 karat and are NOT .999 pure. Please do some BASIC research before you spread junk science internet rumors. Thanks. |
Edited by - n/a on 12/29/2008 07:23:17 |
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n/a
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478 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2008 : 07:03:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Lemon Thrower
the bigger point is this seems to be an expensive tool for measuring the size of a coin. calipers could do it much more cheaply. this tool is not testing the metal content or density of the coin.
Ok, a good set of calipers costs how much? You'll need a scale also. Do calipers and scales test metal content or the density of a coin? Again...do some BASIC research, read the link on HOW the FISCH works and WHY it is foolproof before posting ignorance. The FISCH is a GAUGE that tests diameter, width, and weight....all the things calipers and a scale would do without carrying those items around with you. It is much faster than using calipers and a scale. Class Assignment: Research the history of gauges and how they are used. Gauges are measuring tools used by machinists, mechanics, inspectors and other trades in order to save time and simplify measuring. Multiple sets of gauges can be carried in your pocket. This is what the FISCH is...get it?? Thanks and have a nice day. |
Edited by - n/a on 12/29/2008 07:16:44 |
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natsb88
Administrator
USA
1850 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2008 : 08:42:23
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The Fisch should definitely work. A coin cannot be the same size (volume) AND weight as gold unless there's some crazy alloying going on, which would likely exceed the cost of just making it out of gold. Basic middle school concept of density. If you purchase gold often and in person, it would handy.
However, a decent pair of 6" calipers costs $30, and a decent scale accurate to .005 ozt costs $10 - $20. Those two tools would not be as quick as the Fisch, but they would be much more versatile, and they test the exact same thing the Fisch is testing--size and mass. The Fisch also doesn't check 1/20 ounce coins, and carrying 8 of those things wouldn't be much of a space saver versus carrying a set of calipers and a scale. Besides, I don't have nearly enough gold to justify it  |
Nate
The Copper Cave
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Edited by - natsb88 on 12/29/2008 08:43:19 |
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Lemon Thrower
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1588 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2008 : 09:46:19
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quote:
Originally posted by CuproNickle
quote:
Originally posted by Lemon Thrower
well For example, Krugerands have low premiums relative to AGE's and Maples. Part of it is taxation - .999 pure coins are exempt from sales tax in some jurisdictions - but Krugerands are .999 pure I believe.
Wrong again. The Krugerand is 22 karat gold, containing 1 full ounce of 24 karat gold, plus copper & silver alloys. 33.9 grams. The greater popularity of other bullion coins has caused its premium over content to drop over the last ten years.
Taxation? American Gold Eagles are the only bullion coin that you can buy for an IRA. I don't know what jurisdiction or taxation planet you live on but you still have to pay taxes on any profit you make when you sell them. American Eagles are also 22 karat and are NOT .999 pure. Please do some BASIC research before you spread junk science internet rumors. Thanks.
can you even read? I said sales tax. and I didn't say the U.S.
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Buying:
Peace/Morgan G+ at $15.00
copper cents at 1.3X
wheat pennies at 3X
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Lemon Thrower
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1588 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2008 : 09:49:22
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quote:
Originally posted by natsb88
The Fisch should definitely work. A coin cannot be the same size (volume) AND weight as gold unless there's some crazy alloying going on, which would likely exceed the cost of just making it out of gold. Basic middle school concept of density. If you purchase gold often and in person, it would handy.
However, a decent pair of 6" calipers costs $30, and a decent scale accurate to .005 ozt costs $10 - $20. Those two tools would not be as quick as the Fisch, but they would be much more versatile, and they test the exact same thing the Fisch is testing--size and mass. The Fisch also doesn't check 1/20 ounce coins, and carrying 8 of those things wouldn't be much of a space saver versus carrying a set of calipers and a scale. Besides, I don't have nearly enough gold to justify it
the Fisch would work but it does not directly confirm gold content, rather it relies on proxies for density. but an alloy of certain metals could fool it. for $300 I would want a tool that would not be fooled. An alloy of depleted uranium and another less dense material is possible. Whether they exist or not I do not know, but certainly the incentive is there when you are talking about gold.
with the Fisch you may need to buy 4 different gauges, versus one set of calipers and 1 scale. |
Buying:
Peace/Morgan G+ at $15.00
copper cents at 1.3X
wheat pennies at 3X
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Lemon Thrower
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1588 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2008 : 10:00:11
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quote:
Originally posted by natsb88
The Fisch should definitely work. A coin cannot be the same size (volume) AND weight as gold unless there's some crazy alloying going on, which would likely exceed the cost of just making it out of gold. Basic middle school concept of density. If you purchase gold often and in person, it would handy.
However, a decent pair of 6" calipers costs $30, and a decent scale accurate to .005 ozt costs $10 - $20. Those two tools would not be as quick as the Fisch, but they would be much more versatile, and they test the exact same thing the Fisch is testing--size and mass. The Fisch also doesn't check 1/20 ounce coins, and carrying 8 of those things wouldn't be much of a space saver versus carrying a set of calipers and a scale. Besides, I don't have nearly enough gold to justify it
the Fisch would work but it does not directly confirm gold content, rather it relies on proxies for density. but an alloy of certain metals could fool it. for $300 I would want a tool that would not be fooled. An alloy of depleted uranium and another less dense material is possible. Tungsten at $30/lb has nearly an identical density of gold. Even the Central Banks have been scammed. Whether fakes of bullion coins exist that have similar densities I do not know. I am not the first to hear of these stories. However, certainly the incentive is there when you are talking about gold.
Also, with the Fisch you may need to buy 4 different gauges, versus one set of calipers and 1 scale. |
Buying:
Peace/Morgan G+ at $15.00
copper cents at 1.3X
wheat pennies at 3X
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Edited by - Lemon Thrower on 12/29/2008 15:25:34 |
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2008 : 11:19:46
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quote:
Originally posted by natsb88
The Fisch should definitely work. A coin cannot be the same size (volume) AND weight as gold unless there's some crazy alloying going on, which would likely exceed the cost of just making it out of gold. Basic middle school concept of density. If you purchase gold often and in person, it would handy.
However, a decent pair of 6" calipers costs $30, and a decent scale accurate to .005 ozt costs $10 - $20. Those two tools would not be as quick as the Fisch, but they would be much more versatile, and they test the exact same thing the Fisch is testing--size and mass. The Fisch also doesn't check 1/20 ounce coins, and carrying 8 of those things wouldn't be much of a space saver versus carrying a set of calipers and a scale. Besides, I don't have nearly enough gold to justify it
I would have to agree. $300 seems too steep of a price for me. I thought that maybe it was selling for more like $30. I would rather put the $300 towards more precious metals from a respectable dealer. Believe me, my dealer knows a fake when he sees and tests one. I know it happens, but this fake coin or bar concern is why over-blowned in my opinion. It would be much more easy to fake a bullion bar than a well designed coin. If you really want to sleep well at night then take your coins and bars to another dealer than the one you bought from and see what he or she offers you for them. |
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Think positive. |
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n/a
deleted
478 Posts |
Posted - 12/29/2008 : 13:37:22
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| The coins you need to be most concerned about are English Sovereigns and anything Mexican. |
Edited by - n/a on 12/29/2008 13:37:56 |
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psi
Penny Collector Member
Canada
399 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2009 : 00:07:23
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| I've also seen some speculation on other forums regarding the possible existence of tungsten fakes of gold coins. Apparently there was a technique published not too long ago for making solid objects from granular tungsten using some sort of binding agent, which would get around the difficulty of working the tungsten. I wonder if something along the lines of a metal detector would be able to tell the difference? |
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Lemon Thrower
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1588 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2009 : 07:23:40
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quote:
Originally posted by psi
I've also seen some speculation on other forums regarding the possible existence of tungsten fakes of gold coins. Apparently there was a technique published not too long ago for making solid objects from granular tungsten using some sort of binding agent, which would get around the difficulty of working the tungsten. I wonder if something along the lines of a metal detector would be able to tell the difference?
I believe what a coin comparator does is send an electric signal through a coin and records the electronic echo, and compares the electronic echo to a test echo. so the technology exists and is not very expensive.
reminds me of an episode of a tv show called beating vegas. a guy actually hand milled some counterfeit tokens. he spent a year doing it - got the dimensions and engravings just right. went to atlantic city, dropped the coin in, and it was rejected. turns out they use a very odd (and traceable) alloy, and the slot machine just checks for metal content. this guy created a fake that would have beat an expert with a fisch but would not beat something that tests the electronic signature. |
Buying:
Peace/Morgan G+ at $15.00
copper cents at 1.3X
wheat pennies at 3X
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n/a
deleted
478 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2009 : 17:40:10
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Tungsten. Uranium. No name TV shows with fake tokens at casinos. Let me guess, the world trade center was destroyed by Bush? You conspiracy nuts are laughable. Tungsten melts at over 6000 F. Granular tungsten with a binding agent, molds, stamping presses, uranium alloys, high tech electric furnaces that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars,........... with enough time and MONEY, anything is possible. Coin comparators, Echo tests, Sophisticated equipment that require training and EXPENSIVE equipment. Not something you'd take to the local coin shop.
The bottom line is that the average FAKE gold coin is made on a crap die with a watered down alloy, probably in the middle east. It will be undersized, underweight and will be dtected by the Fisch.
Using your "reasoning", no coin should be purchased as they are ALL potential fakes made with tungsten inclusions. Oh, by the way, the Moon landings were fake and all the money was diverted to fund the Vietnam War. Paranoia KILLS the mind, or what's left of it in your case. I can't beleive I wasted the time to argue this point with a conspiracy nut. Signing out, this time for good. You need serious mental help. |
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PreservingThePast
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1572 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2009 : 18:14:13
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I know this topic has mainly centered around counterfeiting of gold coins. However, here is a link about the Chinese counterfeiting mainly silver coins and US error coins. With my slow dial-up I couldn't get into all of these articles, but in the past I did see that not only were they counterfeiting the silver coins, but the packaging that would make you think these were graded/slabbed US coins.
You must be logged in to see this link.
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Neckro
1000+ Penny Miser Member
Saudi Arabia
2080 Posts |
Posted - 01/01/2009 : 18:35:25
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| Last thing I heard Uranium was highly radioactive. |
Trolling is an art. |
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psi
Penny Collector Member
Canada
399 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2009 : 01:09:30
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quote:
Originally posted by CuproNickle
Using your "reasoning", no coin should be purchased as they are ALL potential fakes made with tungsten inclusions. Oh, by the way, the Moon landings were fake and all the money was diverted to fund the Vietnam War. Paranoia KILLS the mind, or what's left of it in your case. I can't beleive I wasted the time to argue this point with a conspiracy nut. Signing out, this time for good. You need serious mental help.
What's with the attitude and name-calling? You may disagree with points others have brought up but this type of thing just makes you look childish. Saying that it may be possible for someone to produce fake bullion coins of the correct density from relatively cheap materials is not the same as saying that such things are widely done at this point in time. |
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Lemon Thrower
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1588 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2009 : 05:23:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Neckro
Last thing I heard Uranium was highly radioactive.
depeleted uranium is less so. tungsten is not. tungsten is about $30/lb and has a similar density to gold. |
Buying:
Peace/Morgan G+ at $15.00
copper cents at 1.3X
wheat pennies at 3X
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Lemon Thrower
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1588 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2009 : 05:24:51
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quote:
Originally posted by CuproNickle
Tungsten. Uranium. No name TV shows with fake tokens at casinos. Let me guess, the world trade center was destroyed by Bush? You conspiracy nuts are laughable. Tungsten melts at over 6000 F. Granular tungsten with a binding agent, molds, stamping presses, uranium alloys, high tech electric furnaces that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars,........... with enough time and MONEY, anything is possible. Coin comparators, Echo tests, Sophisticated equipment that require training and EXPENSIVE equipment. Not something you'd take to the local coin shop.
The bottom line is that the average FAKE gold coin is made on a crap die with a watered down alloy, probably in the middle east. It will be undersized, underweight and will be dtected by the Fisch.
Using your "reasoning", no coin should be purchased as they are ALL potential fakes made with tungsten inclusions. Oh, by the way, the Moon landings were fake and all the money was diverted to fund the Vietnam War. Paranoia KILLS the mind, or what's left of it in your case. I can't beleive I wasted the time to argue this point with a conspiracy nut. Signing out, this time for good. You need serious mental help.
As I indicated in my prior post, the name of the tv show is called Beating Vegas.
Despite asking for opinions, you are quite hostile to anyone with a negative opinion of this expensive low-tech Fisch device. Do you have a financial interest in selling these? |
Buying:
Peace/Morgan G+ at $15.00
copper cents at 1.3X
wheat pennies at 3X
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Edited by - Lemon Thrower on 01/02/2009 05:27:13 |
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psi
Penny Collector Member
Canada
399 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2009 : 14:51:00
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| Another downside of the fisch testers is the fact that you need one for each type of coin you want to test. An electronic device based on the 'echo' principle mentioned earlier could be calibrated for many types of coins. Even if same-density fakes of gold coins are a complete non-issue as CuproNickle appears to be arguing, I think a well-designed portable electronic testing device would still be superior to the fisch sets since it could be calibrated for many more types of coins by the user without additional cash outlay. |
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Detecting Fake Bullion Coins
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