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tmaring
Penny Collector Member
USA
302 Posts |
 Posted - 01/21/2007 : 19:06:11
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I'm just wondering if anybody here has looked into any of the other metals... such as Niobium, Tantalum, Titanium, Hafnium, Vanadium, Chromium, Molybdenum, Zirconium, Indium, Tin, Bismuth, Zinc, Aluminum, and Gallium?
Of course, scrap markets exist for aluminum and zinc... but scrap markets are spotty for some of the others. For instance... I use niobium as a metal for making fantasy coins. The price for fresh mill plate has been stable at about $12/oz for years. It does not change with supply and demand in the way other metals markets do! But there is virtually NO market at all for scraps. The mills will not take it back... I'm not sure why but I think it may be because of the risk of contamination. In other words... It's simpler for them to deal in megatons of ore than a few hundred pounds of scrap where even a single chip of stainless steel mixed in whould throw off their assay. It's also VERY difficult to smelt with any sort of orindary shop equipment... an oxyacetylene torch won't even come close... I use a niobium crucible to melt IRON in!
What that means is that there are many small to medium size industrial and aerospace users of these metals who have no way to recycle their waste... and are practically GIVING it away just to be shut of it. As a for-instance... Niobium is used as linings for rocket nozzles and for chemical tanks for hot corrosives... so the leftover scraps from the processes to make those things might be quite large... certainly large enough to form inputs to other smaller scale projects.
Each of these metals has its own set of standard uses and its own pattern of material flow. The point of my writing is to alert people on this forum to the fact that they might be able to acquire some of these materials at a price far below mill if they know the right people or look in the right places. As these materials become more difficult to find and the price rises, there may eventually develop a market for the scrap... and then having a couple tons in the backyard might be great!
p.s. if you become interested in the exotic metals, be sure to stay away from the toxic ones... like cadmiun, uranium, thallium, and arsenic... they're just not worth messing with.
Tom Maringer
Shire Post Mint
Springdale, Arkansas
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Metalophile
Penny Collector Member
USA
320 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2007 : 20:55:50
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I remember Mercury is/was traded on commodities markets. I remember seeing in the newspaper quotes for Mercury in flasks, I think around 70 lbs. per flask. One of the kids at school had a father who bought one of these flasks and took some globs of mercury to school. He was handing it out, and some of the kids were playing with it . . . not me!
Also, another interesting mercury story, my 7th grade science teacher was an eccentric guy. We read in our science book about how mercury was discovered by heating mercury oxide ( don't remember offhand whether it was mercurous or mercuric.) Well, it turns out the school had some in the back storage room, and he decided to demonstrate how to make mercury. So to speed the process up, he put some mercury oxide in a test tube and heated over a flame. I usually sat in front of the class, and when I saw him do that, I quickly moved to the back. I still remember him bent over the test tube pointing out the beads of mercury which were condensing on the walls of the test tube. Years later we heard a rumor that he went crazy and went to a mental hospital.
Yes, be careful with the heavy metals!
Metalophile |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2007 : 21:51:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Metalophile
Also, another interesting mercury story, my 7th grade science teacher was an eccentric guy.... I still remember him bent over the test tube pointing out the beads of mercury which were condensing on the walls of the test tube. Years later we heard a rumor that he went crazy and went to a mental hospital.
Yes, be careful with the heavy metals!
Metalophile
I think it was in a copy of National Geographic cover story about poison,
A scientific researcher accidently poured some mercury on a rubber glove she was using, but thought the glove would give her protection. It turned out the mercury went through the glove, through her skin and into her bloodstream. Sadly, the autopsy showed that the mercury had settled into her brain and did irreversable damage causing her end.
Mercury is one dangerous substance that deserves our respect and care. |
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n/a
deleted
479 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2007 : 10:19:37
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Good points on safety.
On the qwestion about the scrap market for less common metals, I have a story.
In 1994 I worked at a circuit board manufacturer as a wastewater treatment technician.
One of our main processes was to remove copper from plating bath waters via a Fe++ for CU++ ion exchange.
We lowered the pH to less than one, added the copper, stirred the vat for about 12 hours and then added NaOH to get back to pH 7.
Then we filtered the cake out of the water. That cake was about 40% copper. The rest was largely Magnesium and Oxygen, and some other junk.
Anyway this cake was classified as a "Hazardous Material" not because it was actually hazardous, it wasn't. By law it was a, "by product produced during the clean up of a hazardous waste." and therefore it too was a hazardous waste, period.
We sold these pallet sized bags of cake to an investor who told us that he was going to "store it until the law changed or until he died."
He bought many many tons of copper for a few pennies. We were happy to get rid of a "Hazardous Waste" for so cheaply.
How does this story pertain to the topic at hand?
Perhaps buying up some of these metals now while they are considered "waste" is a wise investment.
This may only be true if your time horizon is long and you have the money and the patience.
Peace!
.................................................
A billiard ball dropped from 1,362 feet (height of the South Tower) in a
vacuum would require 9.22 seconds to hit the ground. How then did the
towers collapse in 10 seconds and 11.4 seconds, and why has not one
member of the mainstream media insisted on honest answers from the
government in this regard?
"The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a conspiracy
so monstrous [that] he cannot believe it exists."
- J. Edgar Hoover |
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Metalophile
Penny Collector Member
USA
320 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2007 : 12:57:36
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I'm no chemical plant lawyer (I did work in a chemical plant as a chemist for 6 years), but I think your former company may be in trouble if they're audited. I think they're supposed to docomeent that they disposed of their haz waste with a hazardous waste disposal firm. If they guy is just storing it and not processing it, chances are he's not a legal way to dispose of haz waste. I don't know of any law that says a haz waste processor can't reclaim useable copper from that waste stream. I think the laws were written that way so that chemical plants can't just store their waste indefinitely. Something about a historical problem with chemical companies and leaking stored drums . . .
Actually my old company got around the rules somewhat by classifying some of their waste as "in process" to be re-worked. But then, you actually had to re-work the waste at some point.
As far as Niobium goes, part of the problem is that being somewhat of an exotic metal, there probably aren't very many chemists who would even know how to start purifying and separating Niobium metal from a mixture of other stuff. Copper, silver, gold, well, those have been around for eons, and people generally know how to purify those. It could be that the ore is relatively common, it's the processing that accounts for most of the cost, but I don't know that for a fact.
Metalophile |
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tmaring
Penny Collector Member
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2007 : 21:30:57
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Yeah I think processing is the greatest cost. Most niobium is used in the steel industry, where it is alloyed in minor amounts (1% or so) in steel to add strength. It's sold as "ferroniobium" powder with is added to the steel during the primary smetling process. Processing the niobiuum ore material all the way to pure niobium is less common, but it's used for certain high-temperature and corrosive applications.
But here's the thing... these materials have value based on their purity. Mixed metals have very low value because of the processing costs. But I would think that if an industrial user could return their clippings and sheared waste scraps to the smelter... guaranteeing that it was all from the original batch... then that should have significant value. But for some reason it does not and I don't quite understand the economic forces at work here.
Also, metalophile is correct that processing the stuff is difficult... it requires a vacuum-arc furnace... which not many small shops have... even to melt scraps into an ingot for rolling. And the annealing temperature is atrociously high also. I'm saving up scraps... I've got maybe five pounds of pure niobium clippings... but still have not figured out how to process them. But it seems as though at SOME point there must emerge a recycling stream for such metals.
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2007 : 21:41:38
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They are buying, but in large quantities. Must be a scrap market out there for smaller amounts.
You must be logged in to see this link.
This is the main site,
type in what you are looking for in the search box then click search.
If only sellers of these exotic metals pops up, change the display box from Available to Wanted
You must be logged in to see this link.
Even if you don't find a seller, it is interesting to see the buyers of exotics are out there. |
Edited by - pencilvanian on 01/22/2007 21:45:36 |
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tmaring
Penny Collector Member
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2007 : 08:06:56
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Hi Pencilvanian:
I've seen the metals board before... but have never contacted any of the dealers. I get scared off when they start talking twenty foot shipping containers and metric tonnes! There are some odd ones in there... like... a guy offering to buy 5kg of Indium for $60 (when it's going for at least $900/kg!!) I have to wonder how many scammers are posting there. Still... interesting!
Tom Maringer
Shire Post Mint
Springdale, Arkansas |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2007 : 19:51:26
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Sorry the site wasn't very helpful as far as finding buyers.
I usually check out the metals board for metals news since they condense the story into a few paragraphs.
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Other metals... Nb, Ta, Ti, Hf, W, V, Cr, Mo, Zr..
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