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jadedragon
Administrator
Canada
3788 Posts |
 Posted - 10/30/2008 : 20:15:55
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Article is from last year, stumbled across it by accident.
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The American government has for the first time made it clear in a British court that the law applies to anyone, British or otherwise, suspected of a crime by Washington.
Legal experts confirmed this weekend that America viewed extradition as just one way of getting foreign suspects back to face trial. Rendition, or kidnapping, dates back to 19th-century bounty hunting and Washington believes it is still legitimate.
The Tollmans, who control the Red Carnation hotel group and are resident in London, are wanted in America for bank fraud and tax evasion. They have been fighting extradition through the British courts.
Jones replied that it was acceptable under American law to kidnap people if they were wanted for offences in America. “The United States does have a view about procuring people to its own shores which is not shared,” he said.
He said that if a person was kidnapped by the US authorities in another country and was brought back to face charges in America, no US court could rule that the abduction was illegal and free him: “If you kidnap a person outside the United States and you bring him there, the court has no jurisdiction to refuse — it goes back to bounty hunting days in the 1860s.”
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So you better pay your taxes in the US or the government might go to the ends of the earth and hunt you down!
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“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” – George Bernard Shaw.
Why Copper Bullion ~~~ Interview with Silver Bullion Producer Market Harmony
Passive Income blog |
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NotABigDeal
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
3890 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2008 : 20:46:01
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Sounds good....
Deal |
Live free or die.
Plain and simple.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your council or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
- Samuel Adams |
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swusc
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
553 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2008 : 21:30:59
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I don't have a problem with it. Go USA! Does the OP think this isn't ok?
-SWUSC |
`Everybody is ignorant. Only on different subjects.' Will Rogers
"This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the "hidden" confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists' antagonism toward the gold standard." Alan Greenspan, 1966. |
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Delawhere Jack
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1680 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2008 : 22:15:49
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If they are charged with a serious crime, bring em back (convict them in a court of law) and hang'm high 
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"Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty." Thomas Jefferson
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jadedragon
Administrator
Canada
3788 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2008 : 00:58:54
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This policy runs counter to typical international law actually. If a country wants to try someone found overseas, they can have the host country arrest and extradite the alleged criminal. However, if the alleged crime is not a crime in the host country, generally they will not get cooperation. Income tax evasion, for example, is not an a crime in Monoco were they have no income tax. Peaceful protest against the government is a crime in China, but is legal in the US so it is unlikely the Americans are going to extradite a Chinese protester hiding out in New York.
The issue is the "kidnapping" by a foreign power in the juristiction of another country. Kidnapping is always a crime.
I can see grabbing terrorists in a military operation with the host countries cooperation. I can see sneaking into Algeria and killing a swarn enemy of the West - that is all part of war - but alleged tax evasion and fraud?
How would Americans feel if Chinese Agents started kidnapping Americans off the streets of Pleasentville and secretly shipping them to Beijing? Or if the Cubans were grabbing "subversives" out of bars in Miami and secretly shipping them to Havana? |
“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” – George Bernard Shaw.
Why Copper Bullion ~~~ Interview with Silver Bullion Producer Market Harmony
Passive Income blog |
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WheatieFan
Penny Pincher Member
USA
106 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2008 : 11:34:13
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The offered example of an "attempted abduction" is not very compelling:
quote:
In 2005, Gavin Tollman, the head of Trafalgar Tours, a holiday company, had arrived in Toronto by plane when he was arrested by Canadian immigration authorities.
An American prosecutor, who had tried and failed to extradite him from Britain, persuaded Canadian officials to detain him. He wanted the Canadians to drive Tollman to the border to be handed over. Tollman was escorted in handcuffs from the aircraft in Toronto, taken to prison and held for 10 days.
A Canadian judge ordered his release, ruling that the US Justice Department had set a “sinister trap” and wrongly bypassed extradition rules. Tollman returned to Britain.
That doesn't sound too sinister to me.
I'm under the impression there are fugitives freely living abroad that are wanted for crimes much worse than tax evasion. I don't think these white collar criminals have much to worry about. And if they should happen to get pinched, I don't feel too sorry for them either.
JMHO,
WheatieFan
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horgad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1641 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2008 : 12:19:20
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quote:
Originally posted by WheatieFan
The offered example of an "attempted abduction" is not very compelling:
quote:
In 2005, Gavin Tollman, the head of Trafalgar Tours, a holiday company, had arrived in Toronto by plane when he was arrested by Canadian immigration authorities.
An American prosecutor, who had tried and failed to extradite him from Britain, persuaded Canadian officials to detain him. He wanted the Canadians to drive Tollman to the border to be handed over. Tollman was escorted in handcuffs from the aircraft in Toronto, taken to prison and held for 10 days.
A Canadian judge ordered his release, ruling that the US Justice Department had set a “sinister trap” and wrongly bypassed extradition rules. Tollman returned to Britain.
That doesn't sound too sinister to me.
I'm under the impression there are fugitives freely living abroad that are wanted for crimes much worse than tax evasion. I don't think these white collar criminals have much to worry about. And if they should happen to get pinched, I don't feel too sorry for them either.
JMHO,
WheatieFan
If some agents of a foreign government came into the US to arrest me without US permission/cooperation, I would hope that the police that my tax dollars paid for will do their jobs and protect my rights as a US citizen even if that means pulling guns on them and blowing them away. Also, I would hope that the US would consider the affront of a country sending government agents into our territory to abduct citizens an act of war.
I can't begin to imagine other US Citizens feeling much differently. So I am guessing some of you have a double standard for the US versus everybody else?
This isn't about catching criminals. This is about respecting borders. This guy was not hiding out in some rogue nation...it was the UK! The US went through the extradition process and LOST! The UK considered the matter and act to protect the rights of one their citizens.
Whether they were right or wrong doesn't matter, we have to respect the UKs decision OR let foreign countries (CHINA!?!) arrest our citizens whenever they see fit OR be hypocritical. |
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swusc
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
553 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2008 : 16:07:31
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Was he one of their citizens or was he a U.S. citizen living in the UK?
I am ok with the double standard. If someone wants to go get him out of the UK, then good for them. If they get in trouble with the UK in the process, then tough crap for them.
Do you really think the U.S. wouldn't go get someone they really wanted? I believe they would. Some white collar crime... who cares. Let some terrorist show up in XXX, and I bet President Bush will give the order to go get them.
-SWUSC |
`Everybody is ignorant. Only on different subjects.' Will Rogers
"This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the "hidden" confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists' antagonism toward the gold standard." Alan Greenspan, 1966. |
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jadedragon
Administrator
Canada
3788 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2008 : 18:56:33
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Quoting from the first part of the article:
"AMERICA has told Britain that it can “kidnap” British citizens if they are wanted for crimes in the United States.
A senior lawyer for the American government has told the Court of Appeal in London that kidnapping foreign citizens is permissible under American law because the US Supreme Court has sanctioned it.
The admission will alarm the British business community after the case of the so-called NatWest Three, bankers who were extradited to America on fraud charges. More than a dozen other British executives, including senior managers at British Airways and BAE Systems, are under investigation by the US authorities and could face criminal charges in America."
Another example is Humberto Alvarez Machain a Mexican citizen and resident, abducted by Mexican nationals hired by the US government.
Machain was charged with helping torture a DEA agent by assisting the torturers in keeping the DEA agent alive longer. The DEA agent eventually died. In 1992, after the presentation of the government's case, the district court judge granted Alvarez's motion for judgment of acquittal on the ground of insufficient evidence to support a guilty verdict. T he district court specifically concluded the government's case was based on "suspicion and. . . hunches but. . . no proof," and the theory of the prosecution's case was "whole cloth, the wildest speculation." The US returned the Doctor to Mexico.
From Wikipedia:
"Álvarez then sought civil tort relief against the United States and a Mexican national (a Mr. Sosa). Again the case reached the U.S. Supreme Court (124 S. Ct. 2739) and in a controversial decision the court held that the Federal Tort Claims Act's exception to waiver of sovereign immunity for claims “arising in a foreign country,” 28 U.S.C. § 2680(k), bars claims based on any injury suffered in a foreign country, regardless of where the tortious act or omission occurred and that Álvarez was not entitled to recover damages from Sosa under the Alien Tort Statute, 28 U.S.C. § 1350."
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And it looks like Tollman did not even know he was wanted when the US arranged to grab him on a business trip. You must be logged in to see this link.
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From Harper's:
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"The sort of nightmare which refuses to recognize the sovereignty of foreign states or the solemn commitments of U.S. governments over the last two centuries in treaties and conventions. The sort of nightmare that refuses to recognize the “law of nations” referred to by the Founding Fathers and incorporated into the Constitution. Alas, it is the attitude of a criminal who imagines himself busy enforcing the law, even as he holds himself above the law. It is the attitude which has brought our nation low in the world and threatens more damage still."
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But if a US Citizen is taken to the International Criminal Court:
The U.S. opposed the ICC from the beginning, surprising and disappointing many people. Human rights organizations and social justice groups around the world, and from within the US, were very critical of the U.S. stance given its dominance in world affairs.
The U.S. did eventually signed up to the ICC just before the December 2000 deadline to ensure that it would be a State Party that could participate in decision-making about how the Court works. However,
By May 2002, the Bush Administration “unsigned” the Rome Satute.
The U.S. threatened to use military force if U.S. nationals were held at the HagueThe U.S. continues to pressure many countries to sign agreements not to surrender U.S. citizens to the ICC.
But why would a country, often vocal in the area of human rights, and often amongst the first to promote human rights as a global issue in the past refuse to sign up to an international law and institution designed to protect human rights?
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“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” – George Bernard Shaw.
Why Copper Bullion ~~~ Interview with Silver Bullion Producer Market Harmony
Passive Income blog |
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US says Kidnapping is ok
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