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horgad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1641 Posts |
 Posted - 09/24/2008 : 07:37:51
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Funniest thing that I have read all week:
"I nationalize strategic companies and get criticized, but when Bush does it, it's OK,'' Chavez said on weekly television program Sept. 21. ``Bush is turning socialist. How are you, comrade Bush?"
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kavajava
Penny Collector Member
USA
490 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2008 : 12:54:56
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| Way too true--we are a socialist country now... |
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moboman
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2555 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2008 : 15:12:24
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quote:
Originally posted by kavajava
Way too true--we are a socialist country now...
we have been for years. It makes me sad.  |
"99% of all lawyers give the rest of them a bad name" 
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swusc
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
553 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2008 : 16:04:38
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It is all cool to make jokes, but there is a major difference.
Chavez just nationalize companies for his own power gain. Bush has little choice. We are close to the edge of a meltdown.
-SWUSC |
`Everybody is ignorant. Only on different subjects.' Will Rogers
"This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the "hidden" confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists' antagonism toward the gold standard." Alan Greenspan, 1966. |
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fb101
Administrator
USA
2856 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2008 : 17:09:57
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| I second SWUSC. Conservatives have been fighting this for many years. It's too bad conservatives haven't had any political representation for most of my lifetime. |
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Delawhere Jack
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1680 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2008 : 18:54:08
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quote:
Originally posted by swusc
It is all cool to make jokes, but there is a major difference.
Chavez just nationalize companies for his own power gain. Bush has little choice. We are close to the edge of a meltdown.
-SWUSC
I've got to disagree. Yes, we have rough times ahead whether we bail out Wall St or not.
They keep saying that this legislation needs to be passed quickly in order to restore faith in the markets. Can someone please tell me, how does bailing out investment houses / banks that got themselves into this mess by throwing lending standards out the window, and writing predatory loans to ignoramuses restore "faith in the markets"?
Paulson, Bernanke, Cox and El Presidente Bushe want $700bn (for now) to give to firms that created, bought or invested in GARBAGE LOANS?
Folks, this is the biggest scam-scheme ever concieved. Don't go for it.
These people demonstrated NO DUE DILIGENCE in their choice of investments, sucks to be them. Let'm sink. DON'T ASK ME TOO BAIL THEM OUT. I'VE LIVED WITHIN MY MEANS MY ENTIRE LIFE!!!!! I'VE LIVED BY THE PHRASE MY MOTHER TAUGHT ME, "DON'T THROW GOOD MONEY AFTER BAD".
I am so PO'd I can hardly function.
And let me ask this, all of this garbage debt was rubber stamped with AAA ratings. Who rated these turds AAA? And why are they not being hauled away in handcuffs? If anyone can give me a reasoned argument why "liar loans", (aka mortgages written without income verification) should have been rated AAA, I'd really like to hear it.
The statements coming from the powers that be over the last few day saying give us the money, no strings attached, or everything will collapse, amount to nothing short of economic terrorism in my view.
(Not yelling at you SW, just venting). |
"Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty." Thomas Jefferson
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natsb88
Administrator
USA
1850 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2008 : 19:04:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Delawhere Jack
Folks, this is the biggest scam-scheme ever conceived.
These people demonstrated NO DUE DILIGENCE in their choice of investments, sucks to be them. Let'm sink. DON'T ASK ME TOO BAIL THEM OUT. I'VE LIVED WITHIN MY MEANS MY ENTIRE LIFE!!!!!
The statements coming from the powers that be over the last few day saying give us the money, no strings attached, or everything will collapse, amount to nothing short of economic terrorism in my view.
Amen!
I wrote to my senators and representative today. I hope many do the same. |
Nate
The Copper Cave
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penny4mythoughts
Penny Sorter Member
USA
82 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2008 : 19:10:31
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| My issues isn't that we are socialist... it that we are selectively so. We don't get any of the BENEFITS (like short work weeks, vacation time, and HEALTHCARE). We only socialize things that benefit those in power. That's what makes it really suck. |
Los Angeles is the place I call home... |
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2008 : 19:13:43
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| Greed and the printing press got us into this mess and I don't believe that the printing press is going to get us out. This is just the redistribution of debt on to the pubic via the national inflation tax. |
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All posts either by the members, moderators, and the administration of http://realcent.forumco.com are for your edification and amusement only. It is not the intent of realcent.forumco.com or its host to provide investment, medical, matrimonial, legal, security or tax advice and nothing posted here should be considered to be so. All rights reserved.
Think positive. |
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n/a
deleted
146 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2008 : 20:06:30
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| Bush was ALWAYS socialist. He was NEVER a conservative AT ALL despite everyone calling him that and turning the word "conservative" into a personal insult. |
THE Red Blade
Accept No Substitutions!
Save the trees.
Use REAL Money! |
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swusc
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
553 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2008 : 20:28:23
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Well I am the most anti-government person ever. I think all government is evil. We have no choice, but to do this. It is an economic choice... $700B down the drain or possibility the worse economic event in the history of the world.
It seems like an easy choice to me. It might suck, but you don't want the other side. We have more debt now than in history... you don't want it to deleverage quickly. Slowly is likely a good thing, but quickly could make the Great Depression look like a massive ten year party.
-SWUSC |
`Everybody is ignorant. Only on different subjects.' Will Rogers
"This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the "hidden" confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists' antagonism toward the gold standard." Alan Greenspan, 1966. |
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Delawhere Jack
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1680 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2008 : 22:37:56
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quote:
Originally posted by swusc
Well I am the most anti-government person ever. I think all government is evil. We have no choice, but to do this. It is an economic choice... $700B down the drain or possibility the worse economic event in the history of the world.
It seems like an easy choice to me. It might suck, but you don't want the other side. We have more debt now than in history... you don't want it to deleverage quickly. Slowly is likely a good thing, but quickly could make the Great Depression look like a massive ten year party.
-SWUSC
Ok. So bailing out the oligarch's buys us some time, but it doesn't address the underlying problem, which in my opinion is that we've got the most corrupt governance since the late days of the Roman empire. Defaulting on our debts would be bad, but it would not mean the end of our nation, I believe in the long run it may be our only shot at salvation. Others have done it before, namely Russia.. That was ten years ago, and it looks to me like they've been doing pretty well lately, amazing what a focused nationalist leader can do for a country ehh.
If we just say NO to the bailout, then yes there will be hell to pay for years, but maybe then we can strip the gov't back to it's Constitutional principles. But if we bail out the current rotted, wretched, cancerous system it will go on bleeding us dry until there is nothing left.
Neither choice appeals to me, but for the best interests of the nation, and for us "non oligarchs" as a whole, I say burn-baby-burn! Let's take our lumps now, learn from our mistakes, and NEVER let this happen again. (at least as long as generational memory will allow).
If we want to see the United States of America regain it's position as the moral and economic leader of the free world, then we need to let nature take it's course. It will be fugly and painful for all of us. But to bailing out the status quo would just mean perpetuating the control of the self serving, greedy internationalists that have led us to where we stand today.
(God that was a lot of typing, I hope it made a difference)
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aloneibreak
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
672 Posts |
Posted - 09/24/2008 : 22:54:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Delawhere Jack
Neither choice appeals to me, but for the best interests of the nation, and for us "non oligarchs" as a whole, I say burn-baby-burn! Let's take our lumps now, learn from our mistakes, and NEVER let this happen again. (at least as long as generational memory will allow).
i agree. bring it on. i'll get screwed either way. |
My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.
Thomas Jefferson
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swusc
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
553 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2008 : 10:07:08
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Delawhere Jack,
That is a possible. It might be the right answer. Yet, the pain is could to be very very bad. Also, the economic leader is usually the creditor nations after an event like this. That would mean the economic leader of the next cycle would be Asia. We took the lead from Britain after the Great Depression. They owed tons of money and we were the creditor nation of the world.
I don't think people are seeing the flow through punishment or effects. It is like Ron Paul told the country that our actions are causing these people to hate us. The country thought he was nuts. Well, I don't think people are seeing the flow through effects. Like national flood insurance pushes people to build in flood plains, then we blame mother nature for destroying all these homes. Well they shouldn't have been build there.
I could see the Dow hitting around 2000-3000, SP500 hitting 150-200, housing prices dropping another 50-80%. The hit to GDP could be large as well. Along with 20-30% unemployment and a good 3-5% deflation due to money supply and weak demand issues. The time frame of pain is likely 10-20 years. Most of the pain will happen at first, but it will just stay flat for a long time. A total collapse is awful. The events causing the Great depression happened over a few months, but the U.S. didn't really start expanding again until the late 40s almost 20 years later. We were the creditor nation. We aren't likely to be the first to come out this time. That generation that lived through all this though didn't let crap happen to them again... they didn't trust banks, they didn't buy stocks or bonds, and they for the most part avoided debt.
I really don't want to have the next 10-20 years of my life being stuck in that mess. If we can avoid it, then I am for it.
-SWUSC |
`Everybody is ignorant. Only on different subjects.' Will Rogers
"This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the "hidden" confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists' antagonism toward the gold standard." Alan Greenspan, 1966. |
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horgad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1641 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2008 : 12:42:23
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quote:
I really don't want to have the next 10-20 years of my life being stuck in that mess. If we can avoid it, then I am for it.
Do you realize that if the bailout works and the economy is saved that the only thing that was accomplished was pushing our problems out into the future and guaranteeing that when they do come that they will be worse?
If a person is million dollars in debt and is having trouble paying their bills, loaning them another million does not solve their problem...it just delays it and makes it worse.
It what a few of the crazier politicians are talking about it when they protest that we keep foisting problems on our children instead of dealing with them now.
Anyhow it looks like the bailout is going to go through, but I suspect that it won't work. I believe that world confidence in our currency has been irreparably damaged (and rightfully so).
Also, I for one am pretty darn sick of busting by butt and paying taxes so some guys on Wall Street can live the highlife. I would rather see them cut off and damn the consequences.
The people getting bailed out are leaches on society. They create no wealth. Instead they just skim it off of the working slobs. Put the bums on farms, in factories, in mines, or anywhere were actual wealth is created and set them to work doing something useful for a change. The last thing we need to do is encourage them to continue to shuffle papers and skim money.
Call it Socialism. Call it Fascism. I don't care, but don't call it Capitalism and don't call us a Republic. I know people that lost a boatload of money because they made the right calls, bet accordingly, and then the government stepped in and tipped the table over on them. That is not Capitalism, that is not a free market, that is not a government acting for the people by the people, that is criminal, that is changing the rules of the game because it is not going your way, that is a clear abuse of power, that is the bailout. |
Edited by - horgad on 09/25/2008 12:48:43 |
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pennybullion
Penny Pincher Member
243 Posts |
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swusc
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
553 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2008 : 15:27:32
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Wallstreet creates no wealth? I would beg to differ.
Without those capital markets... you have no large factories. Your home town bank can't lend enough money to create jobs. (add up all the savings for everyone in your town then subtract all the capital needed to buy everyone a home, build all these factories, and buy all the stuff needed to run that mine, and etc.) A few local guys can't raise enough equity capital easily by walking door to door (which I think is illegal in most states).
If wall street was useless, then why would people just keep sending money to them.
Just because someone isn't actual hands on putting something together, doesn't mean they aren't part of the process.
-SWUSC |
`Everybody is ignorant. Only on different subjects.' Will Rogers
"This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the "hidden" confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists' antagonism toward the gold standard." Alan Greenspan, 1966. |
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natsb88
Administrator
USA
1850 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2008 : 16:11:07
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quote:
Originally posted by swusc
If wall street was useless, then why would people just keep sending money to them.
If the income tax was unconstitutional, then why would people keep paying it? If the war were immoral, illegal, and financially crippling, then why would people keep fighting it? If smoking caused cancer, then why would people keep buying cigarettes?
I don't think Wall Street is completely useless, but using the actions of the masses is not very good justification for anything  |
Nate
The Copper Cave
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2008 : 17:52:36
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Basically,
Save Wall Street/banks now and let the economy get ruined later
(due to inflation and/or a loss of borrowing when the foreigners stop buying US Debt)
or
Let the crooks go down the drain and let the economy go down the drain too.
Pain now or pain later-The average American always prefers the latter.
My money is pain later, kick the can down the road until someone comes up with a way of getting out of this mess (if such a thing can be found.)
The US has been sliding down this road of ruin for years.
Out of control speculation via the dot com mess hurt only the investors who bought stock in the miracle companies (if they made a profit it was a miracle).
One would have thought
and hoped
and prayed
that people would have learned their lesson about the dangers of greed and speculation, but they didn't, they found a new speculation to gamble with, and lost, again.
Now, the fallout of this housing speculation is crushing the economy much like what happened back in 1925-1926 in Florida (hat tip to Neil and his real estate comments blog.)
In a nutshell, housing speculation in Florida in 1925-1926 went bust, the Stock Market speculation bust followed later on.
Today, housing speculation in Florida (and Arizona, California, Nevada, Spain, Ireland, Great Britian, etc.) have gone bust or are going bust. I fear it is only a matter of time before the stock market really gets crushed.
All in all, we are, all of us, going to feel the fury of this meltdown sooner or later. |
Edited by - pencilvanian on 09/25/2008 17:55:17 |
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Chavez Welcomes Bush Into the Fold
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