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Metalophile
Penny Collector Member
USA
320 Posts |
 Posted - 11/13/2006 : 09:27:26
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I'm not trying to start an argument, but just want to play devil's advocate for a moment:
Is it unpatriotic to hoard pennies and nickels? You see, for every box of pennies or nickels that you request from a bank and then store away, that is increased demand on coinage from the Fed. The Fed in turn orders more coin from the US Mint. The Mint is obligated to supply the Fed with whatever coin it needs, so it produces extra coin at negative seingorage (now negative for both pennies and nickels).
So in effect, our coin hoarding activities are adding to the National Debt. Is it unpatriotic or immoral to take advantage of the system like this, or is it not?
I think some coin collectors might call it "getting even" since they feel like the Mint has made lots of seingorage profit off of collectors from the sale of all the rolls of state quarters that collectors squirrel away and from the sale of all the other paraphenalia that they sell at usmint.gov.
What do you think?
Metalophile
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n/a
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479 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2006 : 12:01:51
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Very interesting qwestion.
First, I think that I am correct in saying that the Fed (a PRIVATE bank) can go into debt or come out of debt without effecting the Government's fiscal position. Exxon or IBM or Joe's restaurant can go into debt without effecting the debt balance of the government, so I assume that a private bank going into debt is the problem of the private owners of that bank. I say "assume" because I do not claim to be an expert.
Second, It does seem that the seinGorage to date has indeed gored the public and the government. The seingorage made on qwarters can more than pay for the loss on pennies and nickles, at least in the short run.
Third, I feel that harming my government with malice of foresight is unpatriotic. But is taking advantage of a PRIVATE bank within the rules created by that bank unpatriotic? I think not.
By the way, I commend you on the polite manner in which you phrased your qwestion.
A billiard ball dropped from 1,362 feet (height of the South Tower) in a
vacuum would require 9.22 seconds to hit the ground. How then did the
towers collapse in 10 seconds and 11.4 seconds, and why has not one
member of the mainstream media insisted on honest answers from the
government in this regard?
"The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a conspiracy
so monstrous [that] he cannot believe it exists."
- J. Edgar Hoover |
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Metalophile
Penny Collector Member
USA
320 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2006 : 12:34:59
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Actually, the US Mint recognizes seingorage as a source of revenue. So negative seingorage is a loss for them. Also, the US Mint sells the coins to the FED at face value, so the FED neither gains nor loses from our hoarding (except maybe transportation costs which they probably recover by charging your local bank), it is the US Mint which is part of the US government which loses.
Metalophile |
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Canadian_Nickle
Penny Hoarding Member
Canada
938 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2006 : 12:54:30
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| Who cares? Free money! |
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n/a
deleted
479 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2006 : 13:10:47
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Thanks for clarifying Metalophile.
I wasn't sure about that.
As to who cares, that is indeed the qwestion, so the input from Canadian_Nickle is certainly valid. Metalophile was asking exactly that qwestion and your answer is as good as any. However, I have a different answer.
I think we should always care about the morality of what we do. This is a case in point. I can see that what I am doing is of qwestionable morality, but I will continue to do it anyway. I justify that decision on the notion that the Mint is in the business of seinGorage. When things are going their way, 99% of the time, they understand the morality involved and they make a business decision to go ahead a make money (pun intended).
Sometimes a restaurant looses money on a given meal, but most of the time they make money. When I eat a meal in a lonely restaurant and I can tell that the people employed there cost the owner more than the meal, I understand that the owner has lost money on that transaction. I just pay for the meal. I don't offer to bail the owner out. I just hope he makes enough to live.
A billiard ball dropped from 1,362 feet (height of the South Tower) in a
vacuum would require 9.22 seconds to hit the ground. How then did the
towers collapse in 10 seconds and 11.4 seconds, and why has not one
member of the mainstream media insisted on honest answers from the
government in this regard?
"The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a conspiracy
so monstrous [that] he cannot believe it exists."
- J. Edgar Hoover |
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n/a
deleted
103 Posts |
 Posted - 11/13/2006 : 18:55:14
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The Mint encourages u.s. to collect coins. They even advertise for us to do so. So I do.
Some day the copper & cupronickel I'm collecting will be despertately needed by the citizens of my country. IMO those who realize that, even though their current goverment doesn't, will be consider patriotic fore-thinkers when that day comes.
The above post is intended for entertainment purposes only and in no way reflect the opinions of the flesh and blood person writing the text. All writings under the screen name "copperhead" are merely a characterization of the personna created. |
Edited by - n/a on 11/13/2006 18:55:55 |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2006 : 19:04:14
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Here is my view towards the question as to whether hoarding is wrong or unpatriotic.
If you look up the production figures from the US Mint or the Red Book, you will see the millions and hundreds of millions of pennies and nickels minted by the government every year. The government has learned by now that coins created are also coins that will vanish from circulation. Some lose coins down sewer grates, some are thrown away intentionally or accidentally. (many consider a lowly penny a trash coin to be tossed out with their garbage)
When I had the time and when my knees were in better shape, I used to look for coins with a metal detector.
While I never found much, there are those who make a living, or at least add to their bank account, searching for coins lost by others.
Coins simply get lost or are drawn out of circulation by hoarders, coin collectors or those who are too lazy to bother to take their loose change to the bank.
I do recall a story of a man who hoarded one million pennies to see if he could collect a million of something, nobody questioned his motives or patriotism.
At one time it was considered unpatriotic to own gold in bullion form. While owning a few gold coins was permissible, those who had too large a collection might find themselves having to explain themselves to the Treasury. (They were jerks then, they are jerks now, they would like nothing better than to dissuade us from having any coin collection if they had a chance.)
While it can be argued that the government is losing money in the production of pennies and nickels, the government more than makes up for it in the production of dimes, quarters, half dollars and dollar coins and dollar bills for that matter.
Quote
If you don't trust gold,
do you trust the logic of taking a beautiful pine tree, worth about $4,000 - $5,000,
cutting it up,
turning it into pulp and then paper,
putting some ink on it and then calling it one billion dollars?"
Kenneth J. Gerbino
End quote
Considering:
That the US Government goes into debt to the tune of 1.5 billion dollars a day,
every day,
each and every day that the Treasury sells bonds on the world market to keep the US afloat
Considering:
That the Congress of the United States has never met a spending bill it didn’t like
And has shown no fiscal responsibility to reduce the debt or reduce pork barrel projects
Considering:
The Federal Reserve creates money out of thin air to keep the economy going, risking and preferring hyper inflation to recession and depression.
Considering ;
That no fiat currency backed by nothing but the government’s word ever lasted for long,
I think it would be prudent to hoard not only nickels and pennies, but silver and gold as well.
Sorry for the long winded opinion. Just wanted to vent a little. |
Edited by - pencilvanian on 11/13/2006 19:07:07 |
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n/a
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15 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2006 : 07:46:33
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Metalophile:
Yes, it is terribly unpatriotic to hoard coins. I would, therefore, suggest that you turn over all your coins to me to save you from this horrible unpatriotic-ness. It's for the children.  |
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Metalophile
Penny Collector Member
USA
320 Posts |
Posted - 11/17/2006 : 14:40:04
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Ok! Hoard Away!
I just got snookered on the USMINT.GOV website. I went to order my usual 2006 silver proof set and 2006 uncirculated sets. After ordering I printed out my order confirmation. An hour later I picked my confirmation up from the printer and looked at it. . . I had accidentally ordered the 2005 silver proof set! In the past the Mint does not sell previous year sets so late into the next year and certainly never sells different year sets at the same time. I called customer service, but they told me my order couldn't be changed because it was already being processed. So now I'll have to pay to return the set, and if I still want the 2006 set, I'll have to order again and incur an additional $4.95 shipping charge. UGH! I think it's time for me to get another $100 box of nickels to get even!
Metalophile |
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Nickelless
Administrator
USA
5580 Posts |
Posted - 12/14/2006 : 02:08:17
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| I don't see how trying to cover our @$$e$ and protect ourselves from an economic abyss is unpatriotic. What's unpatriotic is the lack of real value behind our money. We've been sold a bill of goods by the Mint on the premise that just because they print something, its face value must be worth what they say it is. Show me the money! |
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just carl
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
601 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2006 : 18:44:08
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I continue to tell people that hoarding, collecting, melting or what ever of coins is irrelavent. Soon enough there will no longer be coins or currency as we know it. The combining of European monitary system into the Euro should be a tip of what is to come. Hoard all you want, it will be just metal soon. The necessity for intercountry commerce will make it mandatory to come up with one type of monitary system. This will soon be accomplished with computers. Everyone will be using electronic cards for all transactions. If you buy something from Germany, the computer will automatically turn what ever it cost into whatever you want to use. Our coinage will cease to be necessary to be made except as a novelty. If you live in an area like I do you would notice already that gas stations, department stores, hospitals, etc. now primarily use credit/debit card systems. Note that you can't even rent a car without a credit card. Soon enough even gum ball machines will be fitted for an electronic card.
Carl |
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n/a
deleted
479 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2006 : 20:07:15
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Hi Just Carl:
People who hoard coins are aware of Gresham's Law.
"bad money drives good money out of circulation"
There is an incentive shared by nearly everyone to get rid of their old worn out bank notes, bent or worn coins, etc.
There is an incentive to keep the crisp paper and shiney metal.
Let's say that you live near the US / Canada border.
If the US dollar is going up relative to the Candian dollar, you will do your best to spend your Canadian currency and save your US currency.
Imagine you are in Argentina in 1991. If you had plastic credit cards, you would be like everybody else, but if you had gold, silver, or US Dollars, you'd be in a position to buy your employer's company.
You should not put all of your wealth into metals, but you should not have none of your wealth in metals either.
Joseph Schumpeter said it best,
"The modern mind dislikes gold because it blurts out unpleasant truths."
.................................................
A billiard ball dropped from 1,362 feet (height of the South Tower) in a
vacuum would require 9.22 seconds to hit the ground. How then did the
towers collapse in 10 seconds and 11.4 seconds, and why has not one
member of the mainstream media insisted on honest answers from the
government in this regard?
"The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a conspiracy
so monstrous [that] he cannot believe it exists."
- J. Edgar Hoover |
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Nickelless
Administrator
USA
5580 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2006 : 05:46:46
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| Just Carl, I think you're onto something about copper and other metals being "just metal" when global electronic commerce becomes mandated, but I have a hunch there will be a bit of a window between the time SHTF and the time that electronic commerce becomes mandatory--and that window will be when we should liquidate our metals and buy whatever we can while we still have a means and a medium of value. We're all obviously saving up for when SHTF, so right before that is when we'll most need to use what we've got, just not too late. |
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Canadian_Nickle
Penny Hoarding Member
Canada
938 Posts |
Posted - 12/21/2006 : 22:10:07
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| I think hoarding is the opposite of unpatriotic. When the government debases the currency, it does so willingly, knowing (thanks to Gersahm) that this action will drive the old money out of the system, thus clearing the way for more inflationary debased money to become acceptable amond the sheeple. We act for god and country, making the basic laws of economics manifest upon our currencies. |
Edited by - Canadian_Nickle on 12/21/2006 22:10:58 |
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just carl
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
601 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2007 : 08:13:19
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One more item of this subject is that hoarding coins or currency actually helps our government. If no one hoarded money the amount in circulation would be enormous. The Mint would have no reason to Mint new money except occationally to make up for worn out moneys. This would mean laying off hundreds or thousands of people that make, deliver, roll, bag, etc coins and currency. There would be no reason to come up with all the stupid commemoratives for everything except Elvis for now at least. Federal reserves and associated agencies would slow down and also have lay offs. The amount of people on ADC, Unemployment, Welfare and many other agencies that our taxes pay for would increase and therefore so would our taxes. And we all know how seldom our taxes are raised even now. So hoarding of coins and currency actually helps keep our taxes down.
Carl |
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Is coin hoarding unpatriotic?
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