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n/a
deleted
146 Posts |
 Posted - 10/19/2006 : 14:17:47
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"How many readers are actively scanning their cents for copper and then keeping them? I would like to know. E-mail me at david.harper@fwpubs.com. I think the Treasury also would like to know. A decision needs to be made now that even the copper-coated zinc cent has a melt value higher than face value.
If the Treasury figures there is another 24 years of possible circulation left in the zinc-based coin it will react entirely differently than if it believes the American people will hoard them.
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If someone decides hoarding is the thing to do, the idea will spread within hours. We could find ourselves without nickels to spend. The irony here is that in the coin shortage leading up to the Coinage Act of 1965, it was the nickel and the cent that stayed in change and supported the cash economy.
It should be remembered also that the impulse to hoard once it occurs is very difficult to reverse. Hoarding started in the 1960s long before the metallic content of silver coins exceeded face value. People are willing to wait."
To quote AOL teenyboppers, "OMGWTFLOL!!!!"
Should we tell this guy about the cult following that exists here?
I wouldn't!
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"The best way to destroy the capitalist system is to debauch the currency. By a continuing process of inflation governments can confiscate, secretly and unobserved, an important part of the wealth of their citizens." -John Maynard Keynes
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Edited by - n/a on 10/19/2006 14:21:03 |
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Cerulean
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
993 Posts |
 Posted - 10/20/2006 : 07:34:22
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Like Archimedes, I had a eureka moment in the shower this morning (where I usually am when that happens).
I hypothesize that penny hoarding activity will be harder to detect considering how many people don't promptly return loose change back into circulation anyway. There are millions of dollars of pennies, nickels, and dimes sitting in jars and bins nationwide. How would one be able to tell the hoarders from the usual lazy change accomeulators, based on circulation numbers alone? Sure, one could watch from the Fed/bank end to see if coppers aren't returning, but I doubt the authorities are *that* scrutinizing.
(I just recalled that the Fed does screen currency for pieces not fit for use.) |
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2006 : 18:48:48
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I don't think it would be a good idea to forward the emails of coin hoarders on to the Treasury Department.
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If you can conceive it and believe it, you can achieve it. -Napoleon Hill |
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n/a
deleted
15 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2006 : 18:57:53
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Hello-
Although I haven't contributed lately,I am a faithful reader but here's something to consider which may be interesting to those searching for copper cents: After a 4 month period where I didn't actively look for any cents, I got $10 in cents at the same old bank in D.C. and discovered that although before I usually found about 24-28% copper for each $10 in rolls or $25 box (with an occassional spike to 30-32%), today it was the lowest ever, just shy of 20% (7 wheats in a group of 199 pre-82's- I don't save 82's). This may be an anomaly, and tomorrow I'll find the same 26%, but I doubt it. Maybe the current zinc prices are contributing to an accelerating rate of disappearance. I guess it wouldn't be hard to understand. How are things looking out in your neck of the woods? |
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2006 : 20:03:48
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Nice to hear form you. Have you checked out the sorting percentages sub-forum?
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If you can conceive it and believe it, you can achieve it. -Napoleon Hill |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2006 : 20:16:10
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Hi Centavito,
I took a look at a 2006 Redbook and did a quick add-up comparing copper pennies vs. zinc pennies out there in circulation.
Copper cents roughly 141,402,000,000, close to 142 Billion copper cents.
Zinc cents roughly 240,546,000,000, close to 241 Billion zincs.
Roughly 36.9% of all cents still in circulation should be copper.
I compared copper penny production minted from 1959-1981 compared to copper plated zinc from 1983-2004. I skipped the 1982 production figures since it would be hard to tell how many were copper/ how many zinc.
There are still a lot of copper cents out there, but remember this, coins have a habit of disappearing from our pockets when we least expect it. Any metal detector hobbyist will vouch for that. |
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n/a
deleted
73 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2006 : 01:45:49
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pencilvanian you had me all confused for a minute as I added up all the copper lincolns and got 166,148,282,528 but then I read more carefully and noticed you said "in circulation" and then mentioned you were using 1959 to 1981, then my number matched as I got 141,424,964,705.
I was going to try doing the same thing you did but I was going to consider that typically people are finding 1 in 200, or 1 in 250 being wheat pennies (so earlier than 1959). If I go with the lesser ration or 1 in 250 that puts 141,424,964,705/250 = 565,699,859 wheat pennies in cirulation. So 141,424,964,705 + 565,699,859 = 141,990,664,564. That pretty much puts it exactly at the 142 billion your rounded to.
I believe the life span or amount of time a coin is expected to remain usable is 30 years, if that's true then adding only copper pennies from 1976(30 years ago) to 1981 is 62,976,377,172 so likely 100 billion or so copper pennies remain in circulation.
But lets assume zero loss of copper pennies, then add in all the zincs and we get about 180 billion pennies, using a figure of 38 billion pennies from 1982 to 2006. Then we all pretty much know 25% on average, (some states higher, some lower) are copper pennies. So likely only 38 billion/0.75 = 50 billion pennies circulating which leaves us with a whopping 12 billion of them being copper?!
Am I entirely wrong or does that seem correct? I know almost everyone keeps a jar of change so this may acutally be a reasonable assestment of coins in circulation...sorry this post was a little stream of consciousness.
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n/a
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73 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2006 : 01:52:57
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Huh...looks like if I am close to right blows my half billion wheat pennies in circulation out of the water. It'd be more like 12 billion/250 = 48,000,000 wheats in circulation. Meh...only a factor of 10 diffence  . |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 10/21/2006 : 12:39:47
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Sorry if I caused you any confusion, eccentric.
I just wanted a rough estimate of how many pennies, copper vs. zinc, there were in circulation.
Of course, even our best calculations can’t take into account all that occurs once the pennies leave the mint. Some get lost or thrown away by accident, some get dropped down sewers or little kids bury them like a pirate treasure, nobody really knows how many pennies still exist. |
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n/a
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73 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2006 : 04:48:01
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I'm thinking unless my math is wrong or the sorting percentages people are getting are incorrect, then maximally there are 50 billion pennies in circulation. However it's probably less than that from people throwing zincs in jars over the last 24 years.
When I say in circulation, I mean floating around at any one time. Probably 2 or 3 times as many as I said if you count pennies sitting in jars. I don't know very many people that actually bother to ever roll them up and put them back into circulation. The recent addition of coinstar has perhaps encouraged more coins to go back into circulation than would have otherwise.
The almost depressing thing I calculated was even if all 142 billion copper lincolns were in circulation. That's only 1.42 billion dollars worth (face value anyway). So nobody be spreading the word on hoarding because as soon as it is popular if you take $1.42 billion and divide by the US population of 300 million, that's only $5 per person, so if it gets popular, poof all gone really quick. And if you use my estimated value of 12 billion coppers likely in circulation that's like $0.50 a person or even if they don't sort and my 50 billion guess is correct that's about $1.70 per person.
Now I wouldn't expect every man, woman, and child to go out and buy $2 in pennies once word hits the street but say 1 person in 100 decides it is wise...$200 for that 1 person but more likely $50 for 4 people per 100, I have no idea but say if a penny rises to 5 cents a penny and you can buy them for 1 cent each, lots of people will jump on real quick. So don't tell your friends, and get all you can now.
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Canadian_Nickle
Penny Hoarding Member
Canada
938 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2006 : 22:24:15
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"So don't tell your friends"
what kind of friendship is that? |
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n/a
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17 Posts |
Posted - 10/22/2006 : 23:06:07
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| Here in the west I have recently found that the boxes of pennies are down to just 4-5 dollars of pre 1982 pennies per $25 dollar box. It also appears that there are a lot of people starting to hoard the old pennies. The banks are really don't like to let go of the pennies as they seem to be in short supply. |
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73 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2006 : 10:48:09
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Uh...I meant don't tell YOUR FRIENDS meaning everybody on this forum except me 
I have told several people that the pre-1982 are worth double their face value if you were to sell them for their metal content. I haven't however told anyone I was buying up $25 boxes though when my parents visit they probably wonder why the heck I have a gallon jar full of pennies and a $25 box (Ok, I probably did tell them, I just don't remember doing so). Nobody I know of outside of this forum hoards pennies, unless they're all like me and they just aren't saying. I tell them they're worth double but I highly doubt they're going out buying them up.
The girl at my bank said they have a nickel guy and maybe a quarter guy that come and buy boxes but she hadn't seen anybody buying pennies so I guess I'll be known as the penny guy at the bank from now on unless they start getting other people doing the same. I know I'm the only person at my company doing it as the credit union keeps about $20 on hand so they only give me $5 at a time and they expect I return with $5 so they don't run out, which means even though zincs are at face value if I do it from the credit union I have to return a full roll on zincs before I get another set of $5. Works out pretty good, I mark all the rolls, so they know not to give me those rolls. Didn't tell them I was taking out the pre-1982, they think I'm just scanning them for errors and wheats or if I'm really lucky an indian head. |
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14 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2006 : 15:48:52
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From one of today's Cointflation links:
quote:
Q: The price of copper is at a record high, making a penny worth more in its copper weight than its face value. Can I sell my pennies to a scrap dealer for their weight in copper?
A: Your first problem is that pennies aren’t made of copper. Their composition was changed to an alloy of 99.2 percent zinc and 0.8 percent copper, plated by pure copper — making the total composition 97.5 percent zinc and 2.5 percent copper — in 1982. Meanwhile, “there is currently no legal prohibition regarding the melting of coins. However, the Treasury secretary may prohibit or limit the exportation, melting, or treatment of coins when the secretary decides such action is necessary to protect the coinage of the United States,” according to Becky Bailey, public affairs director, United States Mint.
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In other words, A) it won't become a "crime" until it becomes profitable enough that a significant number of people start doing it, and B ) according to the Mint, the money in your pocket doesn't really belong to you, and what you may or may not do with it is subject to the whims of a far-away bureaucrat.
Sounds just like the good ol' gubmint we've all come to know and love.  |
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2006 : 16:23:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Tin
From one of today's Cointflation links:
quote:
Q: The price of copper is at a record high, making a penny worth more in its copper weight than its face value. Can I sell my pennies to a scrap dealer for their weight in copper?
A: Your first problem is that pennies aren’t made of copper. Their composition was changed to an alloy of 99.2 percent zinc and 0.8 percent copper, plated by pure copper — making the total composition 97.5 percent zinc and 2.5 percent copper — in 1982. Meanwhile, “there is currently no legal prohibition regarding the melting of coins. However, the Treasury secretary may prohibit or limit the exportation, melting, or treatment of coins when the secretary decides such action is necessary to protect the coinage of the United States,” according to Becky Bailey, public affairs director, United States Mint.
You must be logged in to see this link.
In other words, A) it won't become a "crime" until it becomes profitable enough that a significant number of people start doing it, and B ) according to the Mint, the money in your pocket doesn't really belong to you, and what you may or may not do with it is subject to the whims of a far-away bureaucrat.
Sounds just like the good ol' gubmint we've all come to know and love.
Q: The price of copper is at a record high, making a penny worth more in its copper weight than its face value. Can I sell my pennies to a scrap dealer for their weight in copper?
A: Your first problem is that pennies aren’t made of copper. Their composition was changed to an alloy of 99.2 percent zinc and 0.8 percent copper, plated by pure copper — making the total composition 97.5 percent zinc and 2.5 percent copper — in 1982. Meanwhile, “there is currently no legal prohibition regarding the melting of coins. However, the Treasury secretary may prohibit or limit the exportation, melting, or treatment of coins when the secretary decides such action is necessary to protect the coinage of the United States,” according to Becky Bailey, public affairs director, United States Mint.
Just a lot of double talk to discourage the hoarding of coins for their melt value. Note that the question was never really answered. BTW, what was the second problem alluded too? Once the coins are hoarded out of circulation they are gone for good and the mint knows that. I'm sure they are pulling copper pennies out of circulation themselves. When silver coins became worth more for their metal than face the treasury gave the same double talk. "We won't let you melt them so you might as well not hoard them." Right. Just check out the price of 90% junk silver coins and see how that played out.
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If you can conceive it and believe it, you can achieve it. -Napoleon Hill |
Edited by - Ardent Listener on 10/24/2006 19:39:28 |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2006 : 17:24:43
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[/quote]
When silver coins became worth more for their metal than face the treasury gave the same double talk. "We won't let you melt them so you might as well not hoard them." Right. Just check out the price of 90% junk silver coins and see how that played out.
________________________
If you can conceive it and believe it, you can achieve it. -Napoleon Hill
[/quote]
Even if the government could pass a law against melting coins, the law would only apply to the US, not overseas, or to anyone who ignores the laws anyway.
What I am about to say falls into a grey area of the law:
The US government is so busy searching for illegal immigrants, terrorists and drug smugglers trying to sneak into this country, they are paying little if no attention to anyone smuggling copper or cupronickel (pre 82 cents and nickels) into Mexico or South America to melt.
Furthermore, there still are men who make their own “corn squeezin’s” from home made stills out in the country, and many don’t get caught,
so for the gubment’ to say that it would be impossible to melt your coins down AND never get caught is the same thing as the US Fed telling us that they are fighting inflation, its just another tall tale.
There is no law preventing you from melting down copper pipe to make ingots, so if anyone asks you where your copper came from just say you decided to have some fun melting metal. |
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
 Posted - 10/24/2006 : 19:47:58
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Anyone have any information as to how the U.S. mint buys their copper and nickel? Any facts as to how much they currently have on hand? I can't find any information about this at all.
________________________
If you can conceive it and believe it, you can achieve it. -Napoleon Hill |
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Canadian_Nickle
Penny Hoarding Member
Canada
938 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2006 : 20:05:50
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| I'm pretyy sure that after real money becomes scarce, you'll be able to sell your hoarded cents for more than melt value, as they'll have numismatic worth in addition to thier content. You'd decrease the value of your hoard if you melt it into ingots. |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2006 : 20:28:36
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Commercial suppliers sell to the mint
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The U.S. Mint buys these strips, for all coins except pennies, from commercial suppliers.)
(The blanks for pennies, made of zinc, are coated with copper before going on to the next step. Commercial companies provide the planchets for pennies to the Mint.)
Sorry I can’t find out who these commercial suppliers are, the US Mint website seems to be down for the night. |
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Interesting article at Coinflation today...
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