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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
 Posted - 09/10/2006 : 16:06:36
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If no one objects, I would like, for the benefit of forum members that have a passing interest in coin collecting, to set up this topic section with the intent of learning and teaching about coin collecting, especially pennies. The teaching aspect is from all of us, since we all know something about collecting coins, so we all are the teachers as well as the students.
It does seem that some coins sell for far more than their melt value is worth, especially if they are made of copper and nickel, the reason for this is due to scarcity and demand from collectors and condition.
Some coins, such as the 1856 Flying Eagle penny, the 1877 Indian head penny and the 1909 S Lincoln penny marked V.D.B. on the back, were produced in much smaller quantities than other coins of the same kind but of different year. Only 1000 Flying Eagle pennies were made. Only 852,500 1877 Indian Head Pennies were made, compared to the normal production of ten million a year produced. Only 484,000 1909 S pennies with V.D.B. on the back were made, the lowest mintage of any Lincoln Penny in all of its years of production, in copper or zinc.
Condition also plays a part in a coin’s price. Most want as perfect a coin as can be found, and for those who have the money, perfect or near perfect is the only way to go.
For those new to collecting, here is the breakdown of coin grading.
G-4 or GOOD just good enough. Recognizable but heavily worn.
VG-8 VERY GOOD better than GOOD, but the coin has seen a lot of wear and tear
F-12 or FINE better shape than GOOD, the condition of most of our pocket change after a few years out in circulation
VF-20 VERY FINE EF-40 EXTREMELY FINE differing stages of wear noticeable, but still in desirable shape
AU-50 ABOUT UNCIRCULATED looks like it came out of the mint a few months ago, hardly any wear at all, but noticeable if you look real hard.
AU-55 is almost MS-60 but not quite. Experts can spot the faint wear to disqualify it from MS-60, but an AU-55 is nothing to be ashamed of, especially price wise.
MS-60 or MINT STATE looks like it came out of the mint yesterday. MINT STATE does not mean perfect, it just means that no circulation wear and tear can be found on the coin. Some of the older coins were not put into rolls but were bagged up banged into one another leaving coin marks on one another as they jingled in the bags on their way from the mint to the bank. Not perfect but better valued than ABOUT UNCIRCULATED.
MS-63 and MS-65, same as MS-60 but with fewer nicks, bag marks, and dings. Nearly PROOF in quality.
PF-65or PROOF coins especially designed to be as perfect as possible. The dies used are highly polished and the planchets are specially prepared too.
For grades between VG-8 and AU-55, coin grading is more an art than an exact science. There can be differing opinions as to weather a coin is VF-20 or an EF-40, but it must be remembered that appraisals are more opinion than fact, so discrepancies will always remain. Just because an appraiser says it is EF-40 that doesn’t mean such an appraisal will stand up in court, as it were. All the same a G-4 isn’t going to become an AU-50, no matter how you may argue the point.
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 09/10/2006 : 16:10:01
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| OOPS! Meant to say only 1000 Flying Eagle pennies were made in 1856. |
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Metalophile
Penny Collector Member
USA
320 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2006 : 10:30:32
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May want to add MS-70 and Proof-70. Flawless coins up to about 10x magnification.
Metalophile |
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Canadian_Nickle
Penny Hoarding Member
Canada
938 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2006 : 10:56:55
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| meh. personally, I think grading is for schmucks. I like to collect coins, but grades are of zero interest to me. |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2006 : 15:44:08
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| I think that grading coins is over rated myself. As long as a coin brings joy to the owner and a good price when it is sold, those should be the only real factors. That being said, we still have to recognize the fact that those who established the coin collecting rules did so to try to prevent the gullible and uninformed from getting cheated, and to add prestige to those who could afford the best looking coins. Even in coin collecting there is a one upmanship going on. |
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n/a
deleted
132 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2006 : 16:01:34
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Im all for it pencilvanian.
I collect as well and the good thing about collecting
is anyone and everyone can do it and there is no wrong
way to collect.
Im a type collector.
Some collect by date and mintmark for a complete set.
Others collect only error coins.
No wrong way......The way you want it is the right way.
I'll bet that everyone of us that search rolls separate
the wheat and canadian from the 59-81 cents.
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2006 : 16:34:19
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As I said, as long as the coins give you pleasure and you can get a good price for them, that is all the criteria you need to collect coins.
If no one objects, I would like to talk a little about the Indian Head Penny.
Some wonder why the Indian Head Penny should be worth so much. It is, after all the same size and weight as the Lincoln cent, its content is slightly different, being 88% copper the balance nickel. Its melt value isn‘t too much different from that of a copper Lincoln, so why is it that this cent sells for a premium?
Here is the answer
Some pennies were misplaced
Some pennies were lost
Some pennies were defaced
Some pennies were tossed
Into the trash despite their condition
Some pennies were elongated beyond recognition
Some pennies were turned into cheap jewelry
Some pennies were concealed and await discovery
Some pennies were dropped into wishing wells for luck
The pennies that survived sell for over a buck.
The life span of a coin is estimated to be about twenty to thirty years before it is so badly worn out it must be removed from circulation. Perhaps this is why the governments of the world have tried to get their citizens to carry long lasting Dollar/Pound coins instead of paper bills that deteriorate after 18 months.
If a coin’s normal lifespan is only a few decades, then any that survived should sell for a premium, considering so many Indian Head Pennies didn’t.
Demand has a big part to play in the price of Indian Head Pennies, especially those from 1899 and earlier.
The Indian Head Penny conjures up images of the old west, when our country was strong, rugged, and based on the GOLD standard. It is a bit of nostalgia for the “good old days” and such. It seems that any object that is one hundred years old commands respect from buyers, be it a coin, a lamp, a vase or a painting.
Lastly, the production of the pennies produced from 1859-1909 was about 1,849,547,000 pennies, give or take . This sounds like a lot of coins, except when you look at today’s production of cents, it is miniscule. In 1970, the Philadelphia Branch of the U. S. Mint produced 1,898,315,000. And as I mentioned earlier, most of the Indian Head Pennies just didn’t survive to present day, adding to the value of those that did.
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Canadian_Nickle
Penny Hoarding Member
Canada
938 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2006 : 16:37:19
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| I guess it has to do with having a story, or a history. I like well-circulated examples of coins better than minty-graded ones because you can hold them in yr hand and feel their stories, the hopes and dreams of the people who's hands they've passed through. Mint condition coins, slabgbed in plastic and databased by Grading house serial numbers seem a little cold and sterile to me, almost like FRN's. |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2006 : 16:37:34
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| OOPS! Seems like some of the Indian Heads were 95% copper form 1864-1909, my error. |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2006 : 16:45:46
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I am with you Canadian Nickle,
When I buy coins, I try to buy the coins that have been used and have had a life to them. Part of the mystique of owning such coins is you can never tell in whose hands the coin passed. Did some movie star handle these coins to pay their bills before they became famous? Did the likes of Teddy Roosevelt or Charlie Chaplin handle these coins in the small day to day expenses that they faced? it’s a mystery we can never solve, but its fun to think our humble coins may have passed through the hands of the famous men and women of yesteryear. |
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n/a
deleted
132 Posts |
Posted - 09/11/2006 : 20:24:39
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Canadian Nickle "seem a little cold and sterile to me"
I agree.
It also makes me feel like im 10 years old looking through
the window of a toy store wanting the toy on the other side
but with no money.....you can look but no touch.
Another thing I dont understand.......You can have a choice
gem brilliant uncirculated coin sit it beside one thats
graded ms-63 or 64 both coins look the same but the graded one
will be 3 or 4 times as much money ?
I read on a site once " your buying the coin not the holder"
if thats the case and both coins look the same why so much money ?
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2006 : 16:49:05
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Part of the reason lies, as I mentioned before, is the one-upmanship that exists in the higher grades of coins. Coin grading is really more opinion than fact. More art than science. One major drawback of this new numerical grading system is it makes the coins like mini works of art, like a pocket sized Picasso. It makes grading too elitist.
I liked it better when the grades were just Good, Very Good, Fine, Extremely Fine, Uncirculated, Mint State and Proof .
While I can accept the idea of protecting coins with encapsulation, I prefer to be able to take the coin out just to hold it with my hand and imagine what it was like to carry and spend such a coin.
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 09/12/2006 : 16:52:35
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I hope no one objects if I post this, I have it all typed up and I don’t want to lose this.
Of the reasons so many coins of the 20th century survived is what I call the “Lucky Penny” theory. I don’t mean that the pennies brought luck to their owners, I mean the pennies were lucky to be owned by collectors and hoarders. The expected use of a coin is to be spent and given as change to a customer, then spent again, then given as change, etc. until the coin is worn away to a slug. With the coin collectors and hoarders, coins are stored in jars coin folders or rolls, and not sold for years or decades. These collected and hoarded coins are preserved for future collectors and hoarders.
Coin hoarding in this country has existed at first as a way of insuring that hoarders would have money in the event of some calamity or financial hard time. Most hoarders concentrated their efforts on gold and silver coins. Copper coins were, at the time, not considered the most important coins to hoard, so they were used for day to day trade, hence, many were circulated and worn away and lost to oblivion.
Hoarding coins for their numismatic value instead of their face value began in the 1940’s and 1950’s when people had money to spend and wanted to buy things that would keep their value. Some of the hoarding was due to the fear the Depression might return. Some remembered those hard times and recalled when a penny was all they had to their names. Their actions for self preservation helped to preserve the 20th century coins.
For those who hoarded coins, especially pennies, the argument was something like this, “ I might not get rich hoarding pennies, but I cant get poor by doing it either. A hundred pennies will always be worth a dollar but a hundred shares of stock won’t be worth one red cent if the company goes under. Besides, if I can sell my pennies to a collector for just two cents, then I made 100% profit, and that’s better than any bank can give me.”
Look up on E-bay under coins and collections and hoards, you will see some of the hoarders are cashing their coins as a retirement fund.
Most hoarders concentrated on silver and copper coins. While owning gold coins of numismatic value was legal, most shied away from owning too many gold coins under the fear of being labeled a “gold hoarder“.
Of course, those who had the money and passports could travel to Switzerland, rent a safe deposit box in a Swiss Bank, and buy and store all the gold coins they wanted. U. S. Treasury regulations stopped at the border, and the Swiss, at the time, were not interested in listening to Uncle Sam’s laws concerning gold.
Coin hoarding for a coin’s metal value is not new in the history of coins. While we would prefer to think that we were the first ones to hoard coins for their melt value, it was the ancient Greeks and Romans to think of this, and for good reason. The emperors had a bad habit of debasing their coins and reducing their worth.
Quote from the book “How To Invest in Gold Coins” by Donald J Hoppe 1969 (the prices are out of date, but the research and insights are not.)
“The effects of inflation then (during the Roman Empire and middle ages ) were roughly the same as they are today; you spent your good coin but received in return debased coin of less intrinsic value, which naturally would buy less than before. In time you spent the debased coin, only to receive in return coin still further diluted, which would buy still less-and so on and so on.
You soon learned; you kept the good coin of high intrinsic value for eventually it would buy as much as five or ten or even one hundred of the debased coin that was sure to follow.”
Coin hoards from this ancient time turn up from time to time. I prefer not to comment too much on ancient Roman and Greek coins since I am not an expert on the subject. I also doubt many forum members have more than a slight interst in such coins, other than to own one or two as curiosities. |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2006 : 17:05:36
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This segment of this topic could be called non-cents.
During the U. S. Civil War/War Between the States, citizens hoarded all of the coins they could lay their hands on, including pennies. Businessmen decided that the only way trade could continue was if they took matters into their own hands. Many started issuing trade tokens partly as an advertisement for their business, partly as a form of money that could only to be used in their stores. Some trade tokens were patriotic in nature while some were just meant to be used as coins and spur customers to “spend” them. Since they were not intended to be competition for real U. S. coins, the government turned a blind eye to their production. Even though the tokens had no value as coins, some started hoarding the tokens for their metal content.
People back then facing a coin shortage did the only thing they could to buy what they needed, they used postage stamps!
I know this sounds unbelievable, but desperate times called for desperate, and unbelievable, measures. One inventor sold mini cases to hold individual stamps made of tin or zinc on one side and mica on the other to keep the stamp from getting soiled or damaged, much like the clear hard plastic sleeves are used to protect baseball cards.
In 1862 the government decided to print the equivalent of 5, 10 25 and 50 cent coins as fractional currency notes, sometimes referred to as postage stamp currency.
See links for more information
You must be logged in to see this link.
You must be logged in to see this link.
Link for encased postage stamps
You must be logged in to see this link.
Quote from the link
"During the Civil War, regular coins were so scarce that postage stamps were placed in small circular metal frames and used as money. In 1862, John Gault of Boston patented the idea of encasing stamps behind a shield of transparent mica for people to use as small change.
He sold the backs of the encased postage stamp to different companies to use for advertising. Many examples of these "money-stamps" exist today and are considered a valued item by collectors."
Where there is a need, there will be money.
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2006 : 18:59:43
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I have spoken a great deal about the history of numismatic coins and why they so many exist, yet I have not really spoken about their prices. In truth, the only real way to determine the price is between the buyer and seller. A buyer will only pay as much as seems a fair price, a seller can only charge as much as a buyer will pay. The price of a coin, weather it be of gold, silver, nickel or copper is only truly determined by supply and demand. Nothing else.
I would like to let you in on a little secret, a dirty little secret if you will.
While I have mentioned the Whitman Red Book Price Guide, there is another publication put out by Whitman titled “The Official Blue Book Handbook of United States Coins” or simply the Blue Book. The Blue Book is what the dealers use to determine what to pay for a coin, while the Red Book tells the buyers what to expect from a dealer. While we may grow indignant as to the difference in prices between the two books, we must remember that a coin dealer has to make a profit or else go out of business.
If you are wise, you will buy a copy of the Blue Book for your own reference and start thinking like a dealer instead of just a buyer. Learn to find the golden opportunities that await you, rise above the crowd, and make the profits that the uninformed only dream of. |
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
 Posted - 09/13/2006 : 19:12:52
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Interesting thread pencivanian. Thank you.
________________________
If you can conceive it and believe it, you can achieve it. -Napoleon Hill |
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n/a
deleted
73 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2006 : 21:58:56
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| Doh! I just bought the Red Book Sunday night then my Amamzon Prime free trial ran out so now if I get the Blue Book as well I'll have to pay for shipping...oh well. |
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Metalophile
Penny Collector Member
USA
320 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2006 : 09:44:43
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Or for even more fun, there's a regular publication (can't remember if it's bi-weekly or monthly) called the grey sheet: You must be logged in to see this link. In there is a price list which is updated regularly and covers market fluctuations on a wide variety of coins. If you go to a coin show, many dealers will have those grey sheets behind the table. Supposedly, the "bid" price is the price dealers will pay each other for coins. In reality you'll hear dealers make offers to each other, "I'll give you $5 back of bid for that". Then they'll look up the price in the grey sheet, subtract $5 and that will be their agreed price. I sold a few proof sets to a dealer once that way, and he offered to pay be 15% under "bid", and that was the best offer to buy I could get! For hot items, though you may hear dealers offer more than bid.
Metalophile |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2006 : 15:29:42
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Don’t feel bad eccentric. Once you get that Red book you will know about as much as a coin dealer knows about coins anyway. If you want to turn the Red Book into a homemade version of the Blue Book, just slash the prices quoted in the Red Book by 25%-50%.
Hang on to the Red Book even when it is outdated. The information about coins, their production quantities over the years and the history of U. S. coins never really changes.
As far as the grey sheets are concerned, dealers are going to have to adjust their prices with more and more sellers turning to E-bay and the like.
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Numismatic Values
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