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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
 Posted - 03/25/2008 : 16:28:52
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My Big Fat IRS case
Janet Novack 04.07.08
Excerpt:
The young couple hauled in $40,000 in cash at their Greek wedding. They knew if they deposited $10,000 or more at once, the bank would have to file a "currency transaction report" and they'd have to wait in line to provide information. So they deposited their loot in smaller lumps.
Soon, they were being investigated by Internal Revenue Service criminal agents and paying Chicago attorney Robert E. McKenzie $500-plus an hour to help them avoid seizure of their cash or worse. Carving up deposits to avoid a currency report is "structuring."
Structuring is a felony. "It's scary. If you know of the $10,000 requirement and attempt to avoid it, you've committed a crime," says McKenzie, who convinced the irs to let the newlyweds go.
You don't have to be dealing drugs, cheating on your taxes... to run afoul of the structuring law.
Even if the money is from a legal source and used legally, the government can charge you with a crime  and/or demand you forfeit cash.
By contrast, with money laundering, the cash has to be related to an underlying crime.
Think no one will notice your $9,000 deposits? Banks send the feds 300,000 "suspicious activity reports" a year flagging potential structuring or money laundering. These attract more scrutiny than the 16 million currency reports filed each year.
The feds seized $400,000 in late 2006 from bank accounts of Jennifer and Jeremy Marshall, the owners of Aquagrill, a SoHo seafood restaurant, recently praised in Forbes for its Wellfleet oysters, grilled tuna and lobster salad. The government said the funds traced to deposits of $9,950 or less and began a criminal structuring investigation. The Marshalls' lawyer argues they weren't trying to hide money and shouldn't be charged. She adds that an independent expert has confirmed "every penny" was earned legitimately and taxes were properly paid.
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So your money isn't even your money unless you can prove it is your money, 
and the government wonders why so many shun the US Banking system.
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2008 : 20:48:24
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| Well, then no way my cash is going back into the banks. I bet you are reported if you take large amounts out too. |
Realcent.forumco.com disclosure. Please read.
All posts either by the members, moderators, and the administration of http://realcent.forumco.com are for your edification and amusement only. It is not the intent of realcent.forumco.com or its host to provide investment, medical, matrimonial, legal, security or tax advice and nothing posted here should be considered to be so. All rights reserved.
Think positive. |
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horgad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1641 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2008 : 07:20:21
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| I wonder how many of us have been reported by our banks for suspicious activity for bringing in so many pennies week after week and month after month. It is certainly out of the ordinary and the banks are charged with reporting anything suspicious no matter if it is a couple of $9,999 deposits or deposits of $400 dollars in pennies every week. The terrorists have already won...they are the ones passing these laws and spreading fear and suspicion throughout our society. |
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starwarsgeek171
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
651 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2008 : 13:45:49
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| Oh, I see. Now we are ALL guilty until proven innocent. Land of the free? |
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horgad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1641 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2008 : 14:09:41
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quote:
Originally posted by starwarsgeek171
Oh, I see. Now we are ALL guilty until proven innocent. Land of the free?
Everything is by the book because they made "looking guilty" a crime. So now you can get arrested and put on trial for "looking guilty". Sounds like somebody thought of a loophole so they can do investigations without probable cause. In other words they get to go on "legal" fishing expeditions for "real" crimes since they already have a case against you for breaking the "looking guilty" law.
Those lawyers are tricky... |
Edited by - horgad on 03/26/2008 14:11:38 |
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2008 : 20:55:06
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| Isn't that how they caught Elliot? |
If your percentages are low.. just sort more. If your percentages are high.. just sort more.
Now selling Copper pennies. 1.6x plus shipping. Limited amounts available. |
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horgad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1641 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2008 : 07:59:38
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quote:
Originally posted by HoardCopperByTheTon
Isn't that how they caught Elliot?
Yes he was making large cash withdrawals to pay for his fun. So the bank or banks reported him for suspicious behavior which triggered an IRS investigation. Maybe they thought he was paying someone in cash to avoid payroll taxes?
So not only is depositing cash suspicious, but so is withdrawing it.
However, I think there is an easy and cheap way around the problem. Open a business account. It cost me about $15 to register a business name here and now I have a business account in that name. No bank is going to think large amounts of money moving in or out of a business account is suspicious....although that is not why I opened the account.
Of course if the IRS finds out that you have a business account that is churning alot of cash yet you don't claim anything related to it on your taxes there will be lots of questions, but my point is I don't think that they would find out because the banks are not likely to report it.... |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 03/27/2008 : 16:22:40
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quote:
Originally posted by horgad
quote:
Originally posted by HoardCopperByTheTon
Isn't that how they caught Elliot?
Yes he was making large cash withdrawals to pay for his fun. So the bank or banks reported him for suspicious behavior which triggered an IRS investigation. Maybe they thought he was paying someone in cash to avoid payroll taxes?
So not only is depositing cash suspicious, but so is withdrawing it.
However, I think there is an easy and cheap way around the problem. Open a business account. It cost me about $15 to register a business name here and now I have a business account in that name. No bank is going to think large amounts of money moving in or out of a business account is suspicious....although that is not why I opened the account.
Of course if the IRS finds out that you have a business account that is churning alot of cash yet you don't claim anything related to it on your taxes there will be lots of questions, but my point is I don't think that they would find out because the banks are not likely to report it....
I wouldn't be too sure about the banks ignoring business accounts. If you read the whole article you will see it mentions a few businesses got caught by trying to move money amounts under $10,000 for legitimate reasons but still had to defend themselves in court.
"Oh, I see. Now we are ALL guilty until proven innocent."
Well, that is how the IRS operates. |
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psi
Penny Collector Member
Canada
399 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2008 : 00:13:04
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| So is this structuring law a new thing, or has it been around for a while? |
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horgad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1641 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2008 : 07:59:22
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quote:
Originally posted by psi
So is this structuring law a new thing, or has it been around for a while?
It is part of the Patriot Act so circa 2001. The Patriot Act is of course named exactly opposite of what it should be named. Which just goes to show you that after 911 the government could have packaged up dog sh*t and put labels on packages saying yummy patriot cakes and the average American would have happily bought and ate them. Fear is a powerful weapon and it is about the most despicable thing that I can imagine for a group of people to use fear to fulfill their own agendas.
Anyhow some other "interesting" stuff from the Patriot Act that people should be aware of:
1. Made it a requirement that financial institutions file reports on all suspicious transactions (anybody can be reported for anything if your back thinks you are acting suspicious)
2. Made the definition of financial institution broader to encompass more businiesses
3. Gave the FEDs the power to create their own police force to protect themselves and their property
4. Made it against the law to move $10,000 (cash) into or out of the country if that money is outside of the reporting system (so if you take 10k cash out a safety box and go to Canada you are breaking the law, but if take 10k cash of a bank account and go to Canada you are not breaking the law.)
5. Made it a requirement that gold, coin, and currency dealers report all transactions over $10,000.
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Nickelless
Administrator
USA
5580 Posts |
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horgad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1641 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2008 : 08:34:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Nickelless
Any chance that banks snoop around into the contents of safe deposit boxes without probable cause?
In theory they should not be able to. The ones that I have seen take two keys to open. One from the bank and one from you. If you lose your key(s), the banks have to call a locksmith to drill the lock out...at your cost of course. If the banks could get into your box, I would be more worried about a teller stealing than snooping...
Now could a bank report you for suspiciuos activities for using of a safety deposit box (like frequent visits with large heavy sacks  )? I really don't know, but I would never consider doing business with a bank that does not provide a private room for use by safety deposit box users.
Anyhow the known weakness of safety deposit boxes is that it is fairly easy for a government agency to seize them. |
Edited by - horgad on 03/28/2008 08:35:57 |
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Centsearcher
Penny Pincher Member
USA
107 Posts |
Posted - 04/05/2008 : 19:56:08
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| Wow, this kind of thing just disgusts me. If people don't start standing up against this rampant abuse of power theres no telling what liberties we will lose next. In the words of Thomas Jefferson; "...most bad government results from too much government." |
--Misplaced Numismatist--
Democracy: The only system where any two idiots can out-vote a genius
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Edited by - Centsearcher on 04/05/2008 19:57:20 |
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Saul Mine
Penny Collector Member
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 04/26/2008 : 16:35:57
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quote:
Originally posted by psi
So is this structuring law a new thing, or has it been around for a while?
It's an outgrowth of RICO, which allowed the seizure of property or cash without a warrant, without evidence of a crime, without even a reason. RICO was very popular with cops because the department got to keep the money. But the public reaction was quite ugly. Routing the mischief through IRS has prevented backlash because everybody is scared to death of IRS. |
A penny sorted is a penny earned!
Please use tinyurl.com to post links. Long links make posts hard to read. |
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WilliamC
Penny Collector Member
USA
471 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2008 : 15:21:48
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Plain old theft is what it is, just done under the color of law.
And yes I've wondered if my "unusual" pattern of deposits and withdrawals is getting me undue attention.
This week I made two zinc deposits of $400 and $200, and I made two ATM withdrawls of $400 and $200.
I'll use the $600 in paper to buy more unsorted pennies this afternoon, and by Monday I'll have another couple hundred dollars of zinc to deposit.
I'm sure if some outside agent looked at my account records I would be suspected of illicit or illegal activity, when all I'm doing is collecting pennies!
Our country and it's people have fallen a long way from the "Land of the Free, Home of the Brave" that we used to be.
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Sorting In Northwest Mississippi |
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2008 : 20:41:09
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| It's only the first step in making cash illegal. Nothing to see here folks.........move on. |
Realcent.forumco.com disclosure. Please read.
All posts either by the members, moderators, and the administration of http://realcent.forumco.com are for your edification and amusement only. It is not the intent of realcent.forumco.com or its host to provide investment, medical, matrimonial, legal, security or tax advice and nothing posted here should be considered to be so. All rights reserved.
Think positive. |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2008 : 21:04:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Ardent Listener
It's only the first step in making cash illegal. Nothing to see here folks.........move on.
You don't know how accurate (and scary) that statement is.
From a government website you might have missed
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Some interesting stuff...
You must be logged in to see this link.
U.S. Treasury to Launch Prepaid Cards for Unbanked Social Security, SSI Benefit Recipients
Comerical Bank Named as Card Issuer
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EagleCash™
Overview
EagleCash is a cash management tool designed to support U.S. military personnel deployed in combat zones and on peace-keeping missions.....The program uses smart-card technology and off-line batch processing to reduce the amount of U.S. currency in circulation overseas, and to take workload out of the base Finance Office, thus freeing up military personnel for other essential duties.
You must be logged in to see this link.
Navy Cash®/Marine CashSM
Overview
Navy Cash/Marine Cash was developed in partnership with DFAS, the U. S. Navy and Marine Corps, and the Department of the Treasury. All personnel permanently assigned to a ship are eligible to receive a Navy Cash/Marine Cash card. Visitors may be issued a Navy Cash/Marine Cash 'Visitors card' while aboard the ship. The Navy Cash/Marine Cash card is a branded debit card that looks like a typical debit or check card.
Navy Cash/Marine Cash combines a chip-based electronic purse (stored-value function) with the traditional magnetic stripe (debit card and ATM function).
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JerrySpringer
Penny Hoarding Member
669 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2008 : 21:29:57
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| I have some newfound concern too if copper and metal prices in general stay where they are at, law enforcement may start looking closely at folks who do withdraw pennies in large amounts as go betweens for some copper penny melting ring. As simple and actually kind of fun as it is to see how much you can use paper money to accumulate a metal asset under-valued right now, I do not put it past government to not need to know the business of law-abiding citizens if they can use it to phish for more. My reason for posting about this comes after reading more and more about copper electrical line thefts and metal thefts by the drug trade participants. I envision that as not a good precedent for copper penny hoarding. Law enforcement may soon want to know who is withdrawing large amounts of pennies and maybe just make a stab at concluding that laundered drug money is involved with the behavior. See above for RICO implications. |
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TenBears
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1021 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2008 : 21:47:13
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| There is nothing like a good dose of Pencilvanian reality to start off a weekend right! Dang, now we have to worry about Big Brother watching us at the free coin counter at the bank. I'm going to have to investigate living "off the grid," if such is even possible in the 21st century. |
"Rich," the Old Man said dreamily, "is not baying after what you can't have. Rich is having the time to do what you want to do. Rich is a little whiskey to drink and some food to eat and a roof over your head and a fish pole and a boat and a gun and a dollar for a box of shells. Rich is not owing any money to anybody, and not spending what you haven't got." Robert Ruark
there are too wild Indians...
there are too wild Indians...
there are too wild Indians...-----still taunted
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2008 : 22:05:34
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tex.. just pay cash for your gas with bricks of pennies.. they'll never know. 
Just cause you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't really out to get ya. |
If your percentages are low.. just sort more. If your percentages are high.. just sort more.
Now selling Copper pennies. 1.6x plus shipping. Limited amounts available. |
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TenBears
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1021 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2008 : 22:09:45
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quote:
Originally posted by HoardCopperByTheTon
tex.. just pay cash for your gas with bricks of pennies.. they'll never know.
Just cause you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't really out to get ya.
I will be one of the last they come for. I hear "they" really like to go after those who have large stashes of Indian head pennies. |
"Rich," the Old Man said dreamily, "is not baying after what you can't have. Rich is having the time to do what you want to do. Rich is a little whiskey to drink and some food to eat and a roof over your head and a fish pole and a boat and a gun and a dollar for a box of shells. Rich is not owing any money to anybody, and not spending what you haven't got." Robert Ruark
there are too wild Indians...
there are too wild Indians...
there are too wild Indians...-----still taunted
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 05/16/2008 : 22:13:11
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| Hey.. I found some of those. I hardly consider my 20 rolls of Indians a "large stash." |
If your percentages are low.. just sort more. If your percentages are high.. just sort more.
Now selling Copper pennies. 1.6x plus shipping. Limited amounts available. |
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redneck
1000+ Penny Miser Member
1273 Posts |
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Careful with big cash deposits in banks
Forum Locked
