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478 Posts |
 Posted - 02/06/2008 : 15:26:05
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I just bought some circulated Morgan dollars on ebay and was concerned about some of them. Wondering if anyone knows a way to check if they really are silver? Has anyone ever seen fake silver dollars? These are common date coins like 1878 1896-O and 1879-0 in heavy circulated condition. How to test if they are silver? thanks
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aloneibreak
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
672 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2008 : 16:06:19
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| ive heard weight is a good way to tell but with heavily circulated coins that could vary a lot so that might not work. what makes you think they are fakes?? |
My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.
Thomas Jefferson
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Posted - 02/06/2008 : 16:18:19
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The one I have a question about is the 1878. It was obviously cleaned (no big deal as I bought it for bullion price) and it just looks odd. Like it was sand blasted or something. Maybe an acid cleaning? I don't know enough about it but I know I saw lots of fake coins in Thailand years ago that were made out of zinc or some type of pot metal. Lots of tourists were getting duped.
The guy had great feedback so maybe I'm just paranoid. |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2008 : 16:27:28
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Your question got me thinking, CuproNickle, so I decided to see if a silver test solution would work on a Morgan Dollar and what the effect would be.
I took a worn Morgan and applied a drop of the test solution to it and the solution turned red (indicating silver.)
This might be a good way to test your silver dollars, but only those without any numismatic value.
For the real shiny or polished up silver coins (when they are polished up I think they are called 'wizzed' by collectors) these coins were sometimes dipped in a silver solution to make them look better to novice coin collectors.
I suspect you just have a worn but highly polished up Morgan worth its melt value. |
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Posted - 02/06/2008 : 17:33:07
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| Thanks. Can I ask what the test chemical is that you use? Silver dipped is something I never thought of but it fits. Can I post pictures on this forum? |
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MaDeuce
Penny Pincher Member
USA
124 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2008 : 18:25:14
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quote:
Originally posted by CuproNickle
I just bought some circulated Morgan dollars on ebay and was concerned about some of them. Wondering if anyone knows a way to check if they really are silver? Has anyone ever seen fake silver dollars? These are common date coins like 1878 1896-O and 1879-0 in heavy circulated condition. How to test if they are silver? thanks
I've been meaning to share this with the list for a while... this is a good opportunity.
I am a "meat hunter," not a "trophy hunter," when it comes to coins. Fairly frequently, I find myself wanting to verify the metal content of a coin. As I have not yet hit the mother lode and purchased a $30K handheld XRF unit, I've been scrounging around for an alternate (and cheaper!) method. I finally found it.
I spent a lot of time looking through analytic chemisty texts and the like. There are definitely processes that one can follow, but they are, for me at least, too complicated and require too many chemicals.
There are some fairly inexpensive silver test kits that are intended for jewelers and pawn shops. You can find these all over the internet. My way is more fun.
I'm ashamed to say that it took me so long to figure this out, but calculating the specific gravity of a coin is pretty easy. The Sp. Gr. of the coin in question can then be compared to the known Sp. Gr. of the metal it is supposed to be made of.
Here is how I do it:
Supplies:
1) Very sensitive/accurate scale. I use a reloader's powder scale, which is accurate to 0.1 grains (note - this is grains, not grams). That's about the least accuracy you can get away with. I use a RCBS scale that cost about $80 or so.
2) Small cup, nearly filled with water. I use one of the disposable cups that comes with NyQuil and other liquid cold remedies.
3) Short length of monofilament fishing line.
4) Superglue
5) Old coathanger, pair of wire cutters, pair of pliers.
Procedure:
1) I make a small stand out of the coathanger that will rest on top of measuring surface of the scale. Mine is about 4" tall. At the top of the stand, I make a small hook.
2) Superglue one end of the fishing line to your coin. When it's secure, cut the line and tie a loop in the free end. The length should be such that you can suspend the coin/line from the hook on the stand you just made. The coin should hang 1" or so above the base of the stand.
3) Weigh the coin and the fishing line that it attached to it by itself (i.e. do not include the stand in the measurement). Call this weight 'A'.
4) Put the stand on your scale. Hang the coin on the stand. Turn your scale on and "tare" it to read 0.
5) Gently maneuver the cup of water underneath the suspended coin. Continue to raise the cup of water until the coin is completely submerged, but no further. Be careful not to touch the scale or to let the cup of water touch the scale. The cup of water is not being weighed. Record the amount by which the weight of the coin, line, and stand *decreased* when submerged in the water. Call this weight 'B'.
6) Calculate the specific gravity of your coin:
Sp. Gr. = A/B
7) Compare your coin's value to the value for the metal it is supposed to be made of.
This works surprisingly well. Here are a couple of tests that I did:
Knowns:
Sp. Gr. Cu = 8.96
Sp. Gr. Zn = 7.133
Sp. Gr. Ni = 8.9
Sp. Gr. Fe = 7.87
TEST 1 -- 1976 US penny
Weight of coin alone (A) = 48.4 grains
Weight of displaced water (B) = 5.4 grains
Calculated Sp. Gr. = A/B = 8.96296....
This is within 0.16% of the Sp. Gr. of Cu, so it is likely the coin is all copper.
TEST 2 == 2006 US penny
Weight of coin alone = 39.4 grains
Weight of displaced water = 5.4 grains
Calculated Sp. Gr. = 7.296296...
We know that the 2006 penny is supposed to be made of Cu and Zn. This makes things a little more complicated, but it is still manageable.
x = % of Copper in penny
y = % of Zinc in penny
SgCu = specific gravity of copper
SgZn = specific gravity of zinc
SgCoin = specific gravity of coin being tested
SgCoin = (x * SgCu) + (y * SgZn)
SgCoin = (x * SgCu) + ((1-x) * SgZn)
SgCoin = 8.96*x + 7.133*(1-x)
SgCoin = (1.827 * x) + 7.133
x = (SgCoin - 7.133) / 1.827
x = 8.94% (Amount of Cu in coin)
y = 91.06% (Amount of Zn in coin)
Per the US Mint, the coin is supposed to be 97.5% Zn and 2.5% Cu. So, these results are a little disappointing in terms of accuracy. But, then again, I don't have a lot of faith in what the Mint tells me, based on prior experience.
TEST 3 - 1960 Canadian nickel
Weight of coin alone = 70.7 grains
Weight of displaced water = 7.9 grains
Calculated Sp. Gr. = 8.9493....
This is within 0.55% of the Sp. Gr. of Ni, so it is likely the coin is all nickel.
TEST 4 - 2006 Canadian nickel
Weight of coin alone = 61.5 grains
Weight of displaced water = 7.8 grains
Calculated Sp. Gr. = 7.8846....
Per the RCM, this coin is supposed to be 94.5% steel, 3.5% copper, and 2.0% nickel plating.
So, the expected Sp. Gr. of the coin is 7.92875
Sp. Gr. = (0.945 * 7.87) + (0.035 * 8.96) + (0.02 * 8.9)
If we compare the actual to expected, we see there is a 0.55% error. This makes me reasonably comfortable that the numbers from the RCM are pretty close and that the coin is what it purports to be.
Sorry to be so long winded, but I was stoked when it finally dawned on me that this would work. Of course, this can be done with your silver coin to get a reasonable comfort level that it at least is made out of the metal it is supposed to be.
Ma |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2008 : 18:27:47
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The test chemical I used is a diluted acid (I can't find the instructuions explaining what the acid is) but chemical test kits are available from either companies that sell metal detectors or jewelry supply companies.
One supplier of the test kit
You must be logged in to see this link.
Form e-bay
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I placed the drop of solution on the coin itself rather than rubbing the coin on the slate and adding the solution to the silver streak.
You can post pictures on this forum if the pictures come from another website (such as your own website or blog) or from a free post-your-own-picture website. I can't recall the names of such sites now.
I posted this a few seconds after Madeuce posted his findings, which are quite interesting, it sounds like a modern version of Archimedes' principle in displacement. |
Edited by - pencilvanian on 02/06/2008 18:34:10 |
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478 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2008 : 18:57:28
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| the more I look at it, it appears to be silver dipped. It just doesn't feel right to the touch. If it's silver dipped, this would make it test positive for silver regardless of the base metal. I will take it down to one of the local TV guys advertising to buy silver coins and see what he says. I won't sell it to him, just see what he says. Thanks for all the comments! |
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Frugi
Administrator
USA
627 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2008 : 19:30:06
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If what you have is a FAKE, here are the identifiers:
A. Weight will be off (less) by at least 3 grams.
B. Sandblasted look is very common, pitted or mold casting marks.
C. Reeded edges will not be alike.
D. These coins are made of pig iron in most cases and sometimes silver plated brass and do not have the same appearance as a REAL silver dollar when held next to an authentic silver dollar, the difference is clear.
E. You can saw a "questionable" coin in half; the interior metal should be slightly yellow.
I have seen these by the thousands piled up in vendors stands all over China, these have no value, and sell for a couple of bucks to tourists. The last time I was in China, I bought about 100 of these for about $30.00 US, I also got an 1804 silver dollar, along with bogus Maria Theresa Thalers, British Crowns, British Hong Kong dollars, Peace Dollars, Morgans, even fake Ike's.
All for fun!!! |
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478 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2008 : 19:36:25
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| It's not iron, tested it with a magnet. I saw them also in Thailand but they were very obvious fakes by weight and sound. This damn coin looks silver plated or clad. Otherwise it looks real. |
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NotABigDeal
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
3890 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2008 : 19:43:56
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Picture?
Deal |
Live free or die.
Plain and simple.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your council or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
- Samuel Adams |
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478 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2008 : 20:52:47
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I'm having trouble zooming in on it but here it is. Opinions appreciated. |
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Frugi
Administrator
USA
627 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2008 : 21:54:47
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| 99.9% certaintly authentic OR at least not the standard knock-offs coming from china. Your coin is centered perfect and uniform looking. It also has the right "color" for a photographed Morgan (I have photo'ed alot). |
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HoardCopperByTheTon
Administrator
USA
6807 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2008 : 22:07:19
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| Looks real to me. Kind of beat up.. but real. That coin has been around. Probably even made more than a few passes through some slot machines. Hope it isn't a 7 over 8 tail feathers variety. |
If your percentages are low.. just sort more. If your percentages are high.. just sort more.
Now selling Copper pennies. 1.6x plus shipping. Limited amounts available. |
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NotABigDeal
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
3890 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2008 : 06:45:29
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Agreed, looks real. Just looks real beat up to me. IF fake, best one I have ever seen.
Deal |
Live free or die.
Plain and simple.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your council or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
- Samuel Adams |
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MaDeuce
Penny Pincher Member
USA
124 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2008 : 07:24:31
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Do you have a scale? As a very rough test, you could compare its weight against that of a known coin.
Another option would be to do a rough test of hardness. Use something like a punch to scratch a known good coin and then do the same to your test subject.
You could test thermal conductivity too. If you have an electric stove, put one of your elements on medium. Touch one end of a known coin to the heating element while you hold the other. Measure the time it takes for your fingers to first feel the heat and then the time it takes for you drop the coin screaming because you can't hold it any longer. Do the same for your test coin. Compare the times.
But the easiest, and least fun, is to take the coin to a jeweler or a pawn shop. They can easily test if for you.
Ma |
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tmaring
Penny Collector Member
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2008 : 08:58:55
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Does it ring true? Flip it in the air and listen to the ring. Compare to the ring of a known genuine one.
It's hard to fake the ring. This is a time-honored quick check. |
Tom Maringer
Shire Post Mint
Springdale, Arkansas |
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478 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2008 : 12:12:59
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| Yes, the ring test works. It's just the finish on it doesn't feel right. Could be the cleaning they gave it. slippery feel. |
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Metalophile
Penny Collector Member
USA
320 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2008 : 09:33:00
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Most of the fakes I've heard about have been better dates, not the common ones. however, as price of silver goes up it probably won't be long before fake common date silver dollars show up in droves.
One way to check higher grade silver dollars is to look for the "cartwheel effect" in the luster. If there is none, I'd be suspicious. It has something to do with the way coin silver flows when struck by dies, or so they say. That would be difficult to duplicate with another metal. |
Metalophile |
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478 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2008 : 18:09:00
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| Thanks for all the comments. It's real according to the coin guy I took it to. It's been cleaned with chemicals which gave it the fake look. |
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81 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2008 : 05:04:48
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when they dip these things they will sometimes have a slick feel to them making you think that MAYBE it isnt real. since its been cleaned, wash it with some hand soap, it will take off any residue (which you probably take off anyway because lord knows what it is and what it will do the metal down the road)
i got some standing liberty quarters that were cleaned and had a slick feel to them. i washed them with soap and they felt "real" afterwards. and of course they rang like a silver quarter should. but the feel made me decide to wash them, i didnt want anything on them i didnt know about. |
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Posted - 02/10/2008 : 17:05:05
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You could buy a pot of silver jewellery cleaner from a jewellers shop i use this to clean up silver art bars but i've also dipped a morgan 1888-0 dollar.basically you just dip it for maybe 10 seconds and it should come out silver coloured.away to test if its cupro nickel(because
i've destroyed some old coins i thought were silver-british east africa shillings etc)is to leave it in this dip for about 10 minutes if it goes
black its not silver(i know its harsh but you'll know for sure!!)
the less scupulous alternative is to relist it on ebay and buy an art bar....hope that helps a bit. P.S. I GOT A COUPLE OF SEATED LIBERTY ROUNDS WHICH DIP ALRIGHT BUT HAVE A KIND OF PINK TINT!!! |
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Fake Silver Dollars? How to check ?
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