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Flbandit
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
851 Posts |
 Posted - 05/23/2010 : 09:22:18
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I've been thinking about this recently, and I wondered what others thoughts on this area. I have a 26' Travel Trailer that I use for camping. I was thinking about where I would stand with it in a SHTF scenario. I've already use it somewhat for this purpose as we had three hurricanes come through a few years ago. Mine will hold 40 gallons of fresh water, and will run both the stove and fridge on propane. However, the down side is it must be towed, It's very light so vulnerable to high wind. It would also be very little protection from armed thugs. I was thinking I might like to have something that moves under it's own power, can use multiple fuel sources, perhaps 4 wheel drive, and at least a section that would provide protection from a worst case fighting scenario. Anyone else think about this?
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Are you throwing that out? |
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Kurr
1000+ Penny Miser Member
2906 Posts |
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redneck
1000+ Penny Miser Member
1273 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2010 : 10:01:26
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Bug out Vehicle?
The ultimate Bug out Vehicle...
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jtm3
Penny Pincher Member
USA
187 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2010 : 12:22:35
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| I would go for a horse or similar animal. Of course, that is not always practical. |
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Bluegill
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1964 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2010 : 13:38:56
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Everyone's definition of SHTF is different. Along with the everyone's motive for bugging out. Would it be permanent or temporary? Also remember, if you are forced to leave for your safety, it is going to be just as bad.., everywhere...
Personally I don't the Mad Max scenario is ever going to see the light of day. Our decline will be slow and gradual. However, never say never. If it actually did get that bad, that means the government infrastructure is no longer existent. Then, all bets are off on everything.
Ask yourself, if it really got so bad you did have to bug out, you honestly think there would be anything left to come back to..?
Therefore I feel the best bug out vehicle would be any smaller vehicle (preferably a 4 wheel drive) that can get you as far away as possible until it runs out of fuel. Then get out the mountain bike, with a properly stocked back pack, and a tent.
Also, pay attention to what is going on. Be able to realize when things are getting imminent. Use that to get a head start and avoid getting caught up in the masses.
You're going to want to always stay mobile and FAR away from the chaos.
I'm sorry but bugging in, and the whole bunker mentality is just going to get you and your family killed. Where in history has that ever worked? Castles under siege always ended up getting breached. The Maginot line was circled around. Custer and his gang got circled and massacred.
Even if you had some friends and family with you to help out, could you honestly prevail in a siege scenario..?
You have to be mobile and keep a low profile to avoid the packs of looting, raping, plundering, pillaging gangs that will be roaming around.
JMHO
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Kurr
1000+ Penny Miser Member
2906 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2010 : 13:51:55
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I live in a small, closely related, rural town. My "few friends and family" officially number appr 1400 presently. Every other house has a country size garden, we have fields for planting, woods for hiding, a stone quarry with literally miles and miles of tunnels under ground.
You wouldn't be sieging my house. The siege would be on my town. Guns in almost every home, and hunting/shooting is competitive here. One main highway and plenty of trees and tractors to funnel you where WE want you. 12 miles of 2 lane highway to get to or from either of the three good size small towns nearby. Literaly 12 miles west, 16 miles to the east good 10 miles to the north, and 25-30 miles to the south.
Our terrain is left over from glaciers so we have rolling fields/woods and massively rough areas. We sit on a large underground water source, wells do not dry up. Three large Junk/Scrapyards for parts/repairs/resources and the "town" is about 5 streets long going down the highway.
Did I mention most everyone is related? I'm Staying put if I can. |
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Nickelless
Administrator
USA
5580 Posts |
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natsb88
Administrator
USA
1850 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2010 : 20:32:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Nickelless
In the event bugging out is necessary and fuel is in short supply, how hard is it to retrofit a regular gasoline engine to run on biodiesel in anticipation of a gas crunch?
If it's a diesel engine, it will burn biodiesel with little (or no) modification. Gas engines work on an entirely different combustion cycle and won't burn diesel or biodiesel. You might get away with using them as an additive (for a while), but straight biodiesel won't get you anywhere. |
Nate
The Copper Cave
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Nickelless
Administrator
USA
5580 Posts |
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natsb88
Administrator
USA
1850 Posts |
Posted - 05/23/2010 : 21:01:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Nickelless
How exhaustive (pun intended) of an effort would it be to swap out a gas engine for a diesel engine in a vehicle?
I actually thought about doing that once, but it's a pretty involved process. They have different ignition systems, different fuel delivery systems, different exhaust systems (not that emissions would matter in that type of scenario though), and a much heavier starter that typically requires two batteries because of the current draw, among other things. Some of those systems would likely be hanging on the transplant, but would require modifying other aspects of the vehicle.
Maintenance is also different with diesels. Something as simple as changing a fuel filter, for instance, requires priming the engine to get it running again. Diesels also produce significantly more low-end torque, something the transmission in a gas engine car is not designed for. Of course there are many variables that would depend on the specific vehicle and diesel engine, and I'm sure some combinations would work better than others, but it would not be a simple Saturday afternoon project to say the least. |
Nate
The Copper Cave
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Kurr
1000+ Penny Miser Member
2906 Posts |
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redneck
1000+ Penny Miser Member
1273 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2010 : 02:02:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Nickelless
How exhaustive (pun intended) of an effort would it be to swap out a gas engine for a diesel engine in a vehicle?
Why would you want to re-invent the wheel so to speak ?
Buy a vehicle that has a diesel for power in the first place, as it was already designed for that purpose.
If you can find a diesel vehicle with a older mechanically controlled injection pump instead of a electronically controlled pump, there is a added advantage. It would be EMP proof.
The downside would be that since you would have one of the few remaining vehicles that move, there would be people willing to do what ever it takes to try and make it theirs...
Also, older gas vehicles that have a points ignition system instead of electronic ignition are also EMP proof. Roughly speaking, cars and trucks prior to 1974.
quote:
I was thinking I might like to have something that moves under it's own power, can use multiple fuel sources, perhaps 4 wheel drive, and at least a section that would provide protection from a worst case fighting scenario. Anyone else think about this?
I would suggest a older armored surplus military vehicle.
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Or a armored car
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Or armored van
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If you still want to design your own vehicle, I would suggest renting a Mad Max movie for inspiration ...
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Oldpagan
Penny Sorter Member
USA
62 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2010 : 14:48:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Bluegill
You're going to want to always stay mobile and FAR away from the chaos.
I'm sorry but bugging in, and the whole bunker mentality is just going to get you and your family killed. Where in history has that ever worked? Castles under siege always ended up getting breached. The Maginot line was circled around. Custer and his gang got circled and massacred.
Even if you had some friends and family with you to help out, could you honestly prevail in a siege scenario..?
You have to be mobile and keep a low profile to avoid the packs of looting, raping, plundering, pillaging gangs that will be roaming around.
JMHO
I am going to have to politely disagree in part Bluegill.
Bugging in and bunker mentality does not go hand in hand. I agree with you on the bunker mentality, it is a plan to fail. Yet in a scenario like Kurr outlines, bugging in will work. It may be rough in the first few months with the scum roving around, yet in the long run it will be a place to shelter in and raise a garden, livestock, and a small community that pulls together that will survive.
Bugging out would be good in a short term scenario such has a weather or mechanical hazard. But in a SHTF scenario of epic scale where “packs of looting, raping, plundering, pillaging gangs” are roaming about, your going to be operating with a fixed limited amount of assets. What do you do when you expend your rations and run out of gas? While barter works among a polite community, as a outsider wanting to barter, your going to be viewed with suspicion or worse as a resource.
Just my opinion
Oldpagan
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Nickelless
Administrator
USA
5580 Posts |
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Lemon Thrower
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1588 Posts |
Posted - 05/24/2010 : 15:38:20
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| Kurr, pls pm me with directions to your house. |
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Bluegill
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1964 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2010 : 12:44:51
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I guess to answer Flbandit's original question, and to have a conversation about this, we need to all agree on a definition of SHTH... 
To me, SHTF means the federal government went broke, and for all intents and purposes is non existent. The military has all but disappeared. Troops oversees are left to pay their own way home. Seeing as how the state and local governments are all dependent on federal subsidies, they too have gone broke and has dissolved.
The infrastructure has broken down and is basically non existent on any sizable scale, if it continues to exist at all. The electrical grids, water systems, gas pipelines, communication satellites, gasoline, all no longer there. Same with hospitals, rail, air and highway transportation. Police, fire and ambulance services will be a thing of the past.
More than likely most, if not all of the western world is in the same situation. Europe has plunged itself into another dark ages. Canada is getting sucked down the drain with us. That means the UN will not be getting funded anymore, so no need to worry about them.
Anarchy in it's worst definition is the normal. Drug gangs are operating here like they already do in the third world. There will be mass shortages of basically everything. People are not even flinching at the thought of killing in cold blood for food and water.
The result of the last several generations of "I'm entitled" mentality will rear its ugly head in the worst way. Few people willing to work together for the common cause. Most everybody out for themselves, at any cost. It will be survival of the most ruthless...
Ugly, ugly, ugly... 
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Edited by - Bluegill on 05/25/2010 12:45:50 |
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natsb88
Administrator
USA
1850 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2010 : 13:11:20
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*facepalm*
Anyway, it's an interesting scenario to consider. In that type of situation, liquid fuel (not parts) would likely be the most difficult thing to acquire. There would probably be plenty of other disabled vehicles to harvest parts from. You might have the raw materials available to produce ethanol and biodiesel, but the equipment to produce it isn't exactly compact/mobile. Running on straight cooking oil won't do much good either because your main sources of fuel would be out of business.
What you may well have a plentiful supply of, no matter where you go, is solid fuel to burn. How about a small steam engine? Better get building now, buy extra parts, and have extensive knowledge on the operations and maintenance, but once up and running you'd just need water and whatever wood/coal you could find along the way. |
Nate
The Copper Cave
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Mikep2020
Penny Collector Member
USA
402 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2010 : 13:30:14
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| A truck that has those metal wheels that fold down in front of the tires so it can drive on the train tracks would be a sweet bug out vehicle. Just drive down the closest train tracks, hook up, and off you go avoiding almost every highway and secondary road. You only need to worry about crossings and stations. |
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Nickelless
Administrator
USA
5580 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2010 : 19:03:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Mikep2020
A truck that has those metal wheels that fold down in front of the tires so it can drive on the train tracks would be a sweet bug out vehicle. Just drive down the closest train tracks, hook up, and off you go avoiding almost every highway and secondary road. You only need to worry about crossings and stations.
But wouldn't that be considered trespassing? And especially in a SHTF situation, you wouldn't want to attract unnecessary attention. |
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Flbandit
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
851 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2010 : 21:22:42
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| As a worst case, I do imagine a Road Warrior type world. As mentioned above an old army ambulance might be a good choice. Four wheel drive, plenty of room in the back, could be armored enough to have a good fall back spot if needed. I think I would want the type of tires with metal framework so it will run even if shot with holes. I think it would be fun to try and put something together like that. |
Are you throwing that out? |
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redneck
1000+ Penny Miser Member
1273 Posts |
Posted - 05/25/2010 : 22:08:45
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quote:
[i]Originally posted by natsb88
What you may well have a plentiful supply of, no matter where you go, is solid fuel to burn. How about a small steam engine? Better get building now, buy extra parts, and have extensive knowledge on the operations and maintenance, but once up and running you'd just need water and whatever wood/coal you could find along the way.
There's something better than steam for practical purposes.
Wood Gasification.
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In Europe during WW2 over a million vehicals were converted to run on wood gas because of the shortage fuel.
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Not only can you use it to run a car, it will also run a tractor, a stove for cooking or run a generator for electricity.
Here are some examples.
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Building one of these gasifiers has been on my to do list for a few years now... (so many things to do, so little time)
It's not that I don't like steam. Steam power made the Industrial Revolution possible. However, components are not readily available today, where as internal combustion engines can be found everywhere and are safer.
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Edited by - redneck on 05/26/2010 04:06:59 |
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Bug out Vehicle?
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