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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
 Posted - 12/15/2007 : 18:33:21
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As far as what scarp dealer buys these metals I sadly haven't a clue.
At least we can see there is a market for darn near every metal known to mankind, (with China being the primary buyer if I were to hazard a guess.)
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Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2007 : 22:26:06
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COBALT TRADES AT $43.00 A POUND, HIGHEST SINCE 1978
MinorMetals.com 14/12
Cobalt is still gaining even with the lower nickel prices. A lot of cobalt being processed in Cleveland. |
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Think positive. |
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fiatboy
Administrator
912 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2007 : 01:09:55
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Cobalt! Of course! hahaha.
Good thread. You know I love the minor metals. If anyone ever hears any news on niobium, let me know. I just bought some.  |
"Bart, it's not about how many stocks you have, it's about how much copper wire you can get out of the building." --- Homer Simpson |
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n/a
deleted
85 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2007 : 13:31:36
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quote:
Originally posted by fiatboy
Cobalt! Of course! hahaha.
Good thread. You know I love the minor metals. If anyone ever hears any news on niobium, let me know. I just bought some.
Do you mind if I ask where you bought it fiatboy? Yes, good thread pencilvanian. These are the types of topics I love to read. |
"The key to building wealth is to not lose money." - Warren Buffet |
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fiatboy
Administrator
912 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2007 : 23:49:07
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I bought some niobium coins from a coin dealer. Nothing exotic about that. 
However, I'm still looking at places to buy larger quantities of exotic metals. I've sent out some emails, made a few calls, and I've narrowed it down to 5 places. I'm still waiting for some more cash to come my way, and since I'm not much of a gambler, I'm nervous about investing serious cash in exotic metals when I could just buy silver or more pennies to sort. I haven't decided on anything yet, but I'm pretty close to pulling the trigger. I'll keep you all updated if/when I decide.
The problem I keep having is that most places only want to sell to businesses or professional, established chemists/metallurgists. "We do not accept cash, personal checks, or credit cards."
Ruthenium was kind of under my radar for a while, but I've since learned that the Johnson Matthey company is now dealing in it. Something to keep in mind.
Over the past few years, someone in Klosters, Switzerland has taken physical delivery of several tons of palladium. I think that's interesting, especially since that's where the world's royal families going skiing and Nat Rothschild lives most of the year.
Everyone missed the boat on molybdenum.
Iridium is supposed to be the next big metal, from all the underworld gossip I've heard. But gossip is just that--gossip. It's so frustrating trying to sort through all the hype and get to the facts.
Titanium may not skyrocket is value, but its fundamentals look solid. Tantalum, as well. |
"Bart, it's not about how many stocks you have, it's about how much copper wire you can get out of the building." --- Homer Simpson |
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fiatboy
Administrator
912 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2007 : 00:05:25
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Cobalt keeps on truckin.....
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Rhenium is the new "it" metal.....
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But nobody loves poor bismuth.......
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Strange...tellerium has been very quiet lately. That is either a good thing or bad thing. We'll see.
I'm curious to see how the minor metals do in 2008. Individually, they all have very different properties and market tendencies, but collectively, I think they tell an interesting story and offer a counterpoint to the base and precious metals. |
"Bart, it's not about how many stocks you have, it's about how much copper wire you can get out of the building." --- Homer Simpson |
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pencilvanian
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2209 Posts |
Posted - 12/30/2007 : 13:45:00
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quote:
Originally posted by fiatboy
I'm curious to see how the minor metals do in 2008. Individually, they all have very different properties and market tendencies, but collectively, I think they tell an interesting story and offer a counterpoint to the base and precious metals.
Perhaps these metals are a barometer of the economic world of trade that most experts miss or ignore.
While the rest of the world watches what the DOW or S&P are doing,
those who keep an eye on what raw materials are doing are the ones who will profit the most in the future.
What trade and manufactuted goods are being produced and sold, what raw materials are being mined or stockpiled, what will the demand be in the future for raw materials, etc. these are the things a successful investor pays attention to, not the noise from Wall Street.
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tmaring
Penny Collector Member
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2008 : 13:37:03
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quote:
Originally posted by fiatboy
I bought some niobium coins from a coin dealer. Nothing exotic about that.
However, I'm still looking at places to buy larger quantities of exotic metals.
Just thought I'd mention that I've been buying niobium, tantalum, hafnium, and titanium for the purpose of making coins from it. I recently picked up a special deal on over 70 pounds of niobium/tantalum alloy: Nb7.5Ta (92.5% Nb, 7.5% Ta) I looked it up and it is apparently an experimental superconducting alloy. As far as I am able to find out, only one batch of it has ever been made. What I've got are roller tails. (when an alloy is rolled into sheet, the ends of the rolls are often cut off and discarded due to distortion) They have got a number of punched holes in them where assay smaples were taken, but there is plenty of clear metal for punching fresh coin blanks. It's pretty interesting stuff! It is just a shade darker and heavier than niobium, but its working characteristics are similar. (it rolls well without work-hardening or cracking, punches cleanly, anodizes beautifully, and coins up well). The only project I've used it on so far is a group of fantasy 7 Krooni coins for Viinamarisaar. The seller of those coins elected to refer to them just as niobium, but they are actually made from this rather rare NiTa alloy.
Hafnium is gorgeous material... I have reserved my small supply of it specifically for Vulcan coins because of its utility as neutron armor. (The residents of planet Vulcan survived their bout with nuclear war only because of their hafnium radiation armor) The prettiest anaodization color (my opinion) is a malachite green. It's hard to find as scrap, as the main use of it is making shielding for the compact nuclear reactors onboard ships. Of course, you should only use production scrap, never scrap recovered from a wreck or decommission!
I have done only a few coins with my small and rather precious supply of tantalum, but it is beautiful in a dark way. It would be ideal for something goth, and there is a dark purple color that comes out in the anodizing bath that is mesmerizingly deep.
I have done lots of niobium. The biggest problem with making coins of it is that it has a tendency to "smear" and leave little streaks of metal sticking to the die. After a number of strikes it causes problems. I have had to work out a completely different workflow in order to successfully mint with it.
Titanium is most generally available as Ti6Al4V (commonly just called "6-4") In that form it is extremely tough and unyielding and cannot be coined. I only buy the grade 1 "commercially pure" .996 material for coining. It works well but will halve the life of dies as compared with standard metals like copper or silver. The main problem that I have encountered with titanium is that the processing of the plate tends to leave a pitted "orange peel" surface, with a myriad of tiny pits. These look just awful in the surface of a coin, so they have to be ground off. This is a total pain in the patootie! It might be possible to do it on the whole sheet with an abrasive planer. I found that for me the easiest method was just to tumble them bejeebers out of them with a coarse and then finer abrasive. I tumble all blanks before coining, to clean them and polish them. Copper or silver blanks take four to twelve hours... niobium or tantalum blanks take about 24 hours. Titanium blanks take at LEAST seven days! So that adds significantly to the cost!
I have found certain alloys to be interesting as well as pure metals. I'm particularly interested in the tin-bearing and silver-bearing bronzes and eutectic alloys of many sorts.
I hope everybody has a great new year!
Tom
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Tom Maringer
Shire Post Mint
Springdale, Arkansas |
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fiatboy
Administrator
912 Posts |
Posted - 01/02/2008 : 20:31:40
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tmaring,
once again, your knowledge adds a great deal to this board. THIS is the stuff that I enjoy learning about.
I've got some questions for you, too. Are there any metals that you think should be used more in coinage, and are there any metals that you're surprised are used to make coins?
Do you use a screw press for minting?
Also, where do you get your metals?
And I have to say it: don't be such a stranger around these parts! |
"Bart, it's not about how many stocks you have, it's about how much copper wire you can get out of the building." --- Homer Simpson |
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tmaring
Penny Collector Member
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2008 : 09:10:40
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Hi Fiatboy!
I currently have eight presses on the shop floor, ranging from a small 5 ton manual screw press up through a 320 ton hydraulic. Here's a shop-tour page, showing all but the latest couple of acquisitions. You must be logged in to see this link.
Metals I'm surprised are used for coinage? I've got to say the US copper plated zinc pennies... what absolute crap! Aluminum would be better (and we are a producer of aluminum). Instead they import zinc from Zaire (or someplace) and plate it to make it LOOK like copper. If there was ever an event (sinc the removal of silver from the coinage in '64) that would indicate that the dollar is going down the tubes, it was the choice of zinc for pennies in '82.
Metals that should be used more for coinage? Silver!!! They didn't have to take the silver out... they could have just made the coins smaller. Most people nowadays don't even know what a silver coin feels like in the hand, or how it sounds when you flp it. I miss that bright ringing tone! And copper... I mean, real copper. Dang... what's so hard about that? Most countries are issuing aluminum or stainless steel coins now. Lots are plated.
Getting metals... I don't want to reveal my precise source because I'm counting on them to let me know when something comes up. But the basic idea is that with all metals there is a "spread" between the new mill price and the scrap price. With gold and silver the spread is small. It's a bit larger with copper, aluminum etc... larger still with steel. The spread is HUGE with metals like titanium, hafnium, niobium, tantalum etc. There is very little demand for scrap because the refiners don't know how you might have contaminated the material... they prefer to work from their known resource. There are a few dealers in what is known as "aerospace scrap". Typcially they have to accumulate several tons of material, and spectroscopically assay every piece in order to sell it to the mill. So they pay very little for the material. I was able to make contact with some of these dealers and offer to double their money on small lots of sheet scrap... which still comes out to a small fraction of what I'd have to pay for fresh mill stock. And alloys are difficult for them to move. |
Tom Maringer
Shire Post Mint
Springdale, Arkansas |
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horgad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1641 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2008 : 09:47:28
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Tmaring, I envy your skills and equipment. I would love to be able to make my own coins. I found your website via a google search before I knew that you posted on this board.
Unfortunately, time and floor space are against me. Penny sorting is all the hobby that I can handle right now, but I may very well get a press and a rolling mill or two when the penny supply dries up. |
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fiatboy
Administrator
912 Posts |
Posted - 01/03/2008 : 11:50:40
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Wow! That's an impressive shop---I'm envious!!
And thanks for your comments, tmaring. I think zinc coins are pretty bad, too. I like zinc as a metal, just not for coins. I have a lot of older zinc coins from Europe, and they haven't faired too well over the years. haha.
In my utopia, copper and silver would be the workhorses of commerce. |
"Bart, it's not about how many stocks you have, it's about how much copper wire you can get out of the building." --- Homer Simpson |
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tmaring
Penny Collector Member
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2008 : 11:27:35
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quote:
Originally posted by horgad
.... but I may very well get a press and a rolling mill or two when the penny supply dries up.
A small press is a good way to get started. The Adams #2 or #2A C-frame screw press is something of a baseline standard. They are quite commonly available on the east coast, and sometimes elsewhere also. They show up on eBay routinely. (search "screw press" "fly press" and "coin press") You can occasionally find one as low as $150, but you can almost always get one at $450. Gold's International Machinery almost always has them in stock. They are about a 5 ton capacity, which is small... but it's quite capable of punching blanks up to quarter size, doing counterstamping, very small coins (like... widow's mite size) in standard metals, or dime size in very soft metals (like tin or pewter). Even if you later obtain a larger and more powerful press, you will always have uses for the smaller one! The Adams #2 weighs something like 500 or 600 pounds, so you will not be able to just pick it up without some stouthearted friends. I've become very familiar with the uses of block and tackle, engine hoists, chain hoists, and pallet jacks, among other tools for moving and lifting heavy machines short of having to rent a forklift.
There are several screw presses on ebay right now... the Adams that's up there is a bit pricey though. The others are larger machines. The Italian one that's in Montreal looks nice if you're in Canada and don't have to cross borders with it.
Tom |
Tom Maringer
Shire Post Mint
Springdale, Arkansas |
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horgad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1641 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2008 : 12:41:00
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"smaller one! [like] The Adams #2 weighs something like 500 or 600 pounds"
The prices on old presses are not bad but the weight on some of those machines is truly daunting. I'm definitely going to have to look into some moving equipment before I buy one.
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tmaring
Penny Collector Member
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2008 : 17:41:12
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quote:
Originally posted by horgad
The prices on old presses are not bad but the weight on some of those machines is truly daunting. I'm definitely going to have to look into some moving equipment before I buy one.
If you have overhead beams in your building you can lift from, then a 2-ton chain hoist is a worthwhile investment. (the Chinese ones are under $50)
An "engine hoist" is the most useful piece of equipment I have around here for moving things around. If you're not familiar with them, you can get one new at any car parts store, or used at many pawn shops. It consists of a hydraulic cylinder attached to a short crane arm on a wheeled carriage. They can usually lift up to a ton pretty reliably. For moving a press you try to work the legs under the press, lift with a rope tied to the frame (NEVER the wheel) and then set it down on boards laying across the carriage before wheeling it around.
Really though... five or six hundred pounds is a TINY one! Once it's on the floor you can just shove it around. My big 150 ton knuckle press weighs about 10,000 pounds! Now THAT was a pain to unload from the truck and move around. I had to rent the largest forklift they had. The motor had to be rewound... it weighed over 400 pounds all by itself. I had to rig a special crane over the top of it to lift the motor down to the floor so I could pick it up again with the engine hoist to load it into the pickup to take it to the rewinding shop. Did it though! Great machine! |
Tom Maringer
Shire Post Mint
Springdale, Arkansas |
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fiatboy
Administrator
912 Posts |
Posted - 01/09/2008 : 15:08:03
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| If their markup isn't too high, I'll be one of the first in line. You must be logged in to see this link. This should take care of my exotic metals fix. Thanks to coinflation for being one of the first to post this. |
"Bart, it's not about how many stocks you have, it's about how much copper wire you can get out of the building." --- Homer Simpson |
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Minor metals
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