| Author |
 Topic  |
|
copperbullion
Penny Pincher Member
Australia
136 Posts |
 Posted - 12/15/2007 : 03:52:27
|
|
Hello everyone, I have been thinking about getting some 1 ounce fine copper ingots made. Do you think that they would sell? They would be made by a professional company and would have a fantastic design on them. The down side would be that they would have to be sold at between $5 and $8 (Australian) each. The reason for the price is due to the set up cost of at least $2000 for the dies, then the minting costs on top of that! So these would probably not be for pure copper investors but maybe for souvenirs etc... I would love to know what you all think of the idea. I was thinking of having a kangaroo design on them, but other suggestions are welcomed, eg harbour bridge etc... Also should I have a date on them... Thanks....
|
|
|
fiatboy
Administrator
912 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2007 : 15:00:36
|
I really like the idea---the more available copper ingots, bars, coins, the better!---but really, that price just seems too high. Personally, I can't justify spending that much for one ounce of copper. If you market them as souvenirs instead of bullion, you might have some luck. I'm sure some people would buy, but that price really turns me off. I wish I had more input...and there must be a way to bring down that price......I wish you the best of luck on this endeavor!
By the way, would the copper be a troy ounce or an avoirdupois ounce? |
"Bart, it's not about how many stocks you have, it's about how much copper wire you can get out of the building." --- Homer Simpson |
 |
|
|
tmaring
Penny Collector Member
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2007 : 16:54:05
|
I've done a one troy ounce copper bullion coin (2006 "Copper Country", with the Quincy Mine on reverse) I've also done a one kilogram bullion bar.
Price is the issue though. Fiatboy says he is turned off by an estimate of $5 to $8 for bullion copper coins. Well... as copperbullion mentioned, dies are not cheap. Neither is the time to punch blanks and process the coins, nor is the rolled copper bar stock you need for punching blanks. So, you cannot ever expect to purchase copper bullion at or even near the spot price. (if you find some, snap it up!) This is the problem of "bullion" made of materials that are relatively low in bulk price... that is... the processing and fabrication costs become an overwhelmingly large fraction of the final price. The "precious" metals are so costly that their base cost overwhelms the fabrication costs.
My copper bullion coins retail in gift shops and rock shops around the Upper Peninsula of Michigan (the Copper Country) for $20 each. The wholesale dealer cost, in boxes of 50 pieces, packed in flips with descriptive inserts, is $10 each. Even this is miniimal and I'm working for peanuts making them, doing it because I love it.
So copper bullion in the sense of investing at or near the spot price of copper? Nope.... never gonna happen! These will always be novelties because of the relative costs involved. The only real copper bullion in that sense would be to purchase full plate cathodes. These are about three feet square, a half inch thick, and weigh about 320 pounds. That makes them just a bit difficult to handle without a forklift. (also difficult to steal however!) By the way... in case you're wondering what ever happened to ingots... copper is almost never smelted anymore, it's much more energy efficient to dissolve the sulphide ores in acid or cyanide solutions and then electroplate from the pregnant solution into plates, so these "full plate cathodes" are actually the primary direct product of the mine. Typcially they grade at least 99.9% pure. |
Tom Maringer
Shire Post Mint
Springdale, Arkansas |
|
|
|
copperbullion
Penny Pincher Member
Australia
136 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2007 : 17:13:01
|
| Thanks for the input, They will be troy ounces, in the shape of a typical silver ingot. Unfortunately there is nothing I could do about the price due to the manufacturing costs. Even making .999 one kilo bars has worked out to be much more expensive than I expected. Firstly, the metal dealers charge up to 60% above the spot price for the metal unless you are buying tons of it, then to get the stamps made up is also very expensive too, and finally, if you want to make the bars nice, you need to have them professionally polished. I am still going to go through with the project as no one is doing it here in Australia, however I may have to target the products as gifts rather than bullion products. |
|
|
|
fiatboy
Administrator
912 Posts |
Posted - 12/15/2007 : 18:04:29
|
Good luck with your project, copperbullion!! Please keep us updated---this is very exciting!!
I was hoping you'd offer some of your expertise, tmaring. It's great having someone around who has such experience with copper. Please don't be shy---I've learned a lot from reading your posts. |
"Bart, it's not about how many stocks you have, it's about how much copper wire you can get out of the building." --- Homer Simpson |
|
|
|
tmaring
Penny Collector Member
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2007 : 09:49:55
|
I'll offer any expertise you're interested in. I'm something of a tinkerer, so my specialty is figuring out ways to make it work cheap. That includes scooping up repairable antique machines before they hit the scrap yard, and rigging up weird tooling that works despite what the textbooks say you have to do.
I did my kilo bar using rolled copper barstock 2" wide by 1/2" thick bandsawing off chunks of appropriate length, a kilo turns out to be a hair over seven inches. Seems like they're charging about $10/lb for that material these days, so a kilo bar has about $22 metal cost in it before you ever even get started. Saw burrs are ground off and chamfered using a belt sander. Polishing is basically done in a large industrial tumbler with a couple levels of grit-impregnated plastic media. The flat surface of a 2x7 bar is thus fourteen square inches! If you were to call a mint and ask them what size press you need to put a design on a copper bar that large they'd tell you it would have to be AT LEAST 1600 tons. That's a HUGE press, not many places have one that big. But what they DON"T tell you is that you can do the job using a smaller press by staging the operation, "rocking" the die into the metal using a repetition of lesser pressure repeated many times. My largest press is a 320 ton hydraulic, and I was able to press a 1" x 6" die deeply into the metal using ten or twelve repetitions and a series of shims to rock the die back and forth into the copper. The books tell you not to do that, but they are geared for industrial-scale processes in auto-plants etc. The result massively deformed the bar, which would e a disaster in a machine part, but which is a large part of the charm and visual appeal of the copper bullion bar.
Later!
Tom |
Tom Maringer
Shire Post Mint
Springdale, Arkansas |
|
|
|
tmaring
Penny Collector Member
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 12/16/2007 : 16:18:15
|
Oh... just wanted to mention that I had posted photos of my one ounce bullion copper coin before. Rather than post it again I'll just reference the thread:
You must be logged in to see this link.
Also, I think that aside from the full-plate cathode bullion concept, pre-'82 copper pennies are possibly the most cost-effective copper bullion available. (obviously, others here think so too!)
One little project I had in mind to use up the pile of coppers spewing out of my Ryedale was to make a counterstamping die to mark them with a simple bullion marking. Something like:
3.1 g
.950 Cu
So as to easily distinguish the sorted coppers from the zinkies. 3.1 grams just happens to be exactly 1/10 of a troy ounce by the way! So an alternative marking could be:
1/10 Oz t
.950 Cu
The key to counterstamping is to keep the message as consise as possible. Reduce the number of characters to the absolute minimum. Ideally the message should fit in the space to the right of Lincoln's face. It is a somewhat vertically oriented space, so if the text can be fitted onto three lines it might allow optimization of character size. Something like:
1/10
Oz T
.95 Cu
Using narrow characters and tight spacing it should be possible to fit it all in there and still have the text readable to the naked eye for most people. Then of course you have to use a back-die to support the other side during striking. This can be plain or can have another message, such as a proprietary logo showing who has sorted the pennies and attests to the purity of the bullion.
There would be some effort of course, in setting up to strike these. My experience in counterstamping is that, properly set up on a small screw press I can get up to about 10 per minute... ~six seconds apiece. That adds up to somewhere near 500 per hour if you figure in a break now and then... maybe 3,000 or so perday. (You just can't DO this for eight hours!) So for that six hours of effort you get about three thousand bulion pieces. Assuming that you're sorting them from change (so you have a base cost of one cent each) and assuming that you can sell the marked bullion pieces at a slight markup over spot value... say 5 cents each. Then your net for a day's work is about four cents times 3000 pieces, or $120. That's $20/hr which is not bad. It's no get-rich-quick scheme, but rather a steady little work-at-home income. You still have to absorb the cost of the sorting machine, a small screw press, and some dies... and you've still got to find a market for the bullion coins. But hey... a guy can't just sit around, right? |
Tom Maringer
Shire Post Mint
Springdale, Arkansas |
|
|
|
copperbullion
Penny Pincher Member
Australia
136 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2007 : 06:55:37
|
| I am glad that a few of you realise the costs involved and that we are not looking to profiteer! |
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
85 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2007 : 13:00:15
|
| Just my 2 cents...... but if you are going to go through with having the dies made then why not stamp a .999 copper bar with it instead? You would only need one die and the cost of hallmarking a large bar would be small compaired to the bullion value of a one ounce coin. |
"The key to building wealth is to not lose money." - Warren Buffet |
|
|
|
copperbullion
Penny Pincher Member
Australia
136 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2007 : 21:45:28
|
| Thanks, Yes I will be doing larger bars as well, but the minted ounce bar will have a better finish and finer details on it. |
|
|
|
fiatboy
Administrator
912 Posts |
Posted - 12/17/2007 : 23:25:34
|
| Oh jeez...who am I kidding...I'm such a metals geek, I'd probably buy one. |
"Bart, it's not about how many stocks you have, it's about how much copper wire you can get out of the building." --- Homer Simpson |
|
|
|
copperbullion
Penny Pincher Member
Australia
136 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2007 : 07:05:20
|
| Don't worry fiatboy, I'll send you one for free so you can review it... they wont be ready till march or april though... |
|
|
|
NotABigDeal
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
3890 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2007 : 17:34:34
|
I'll take a few when ready. Why not?
Deal |
Live free or die.
Plain and simple.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your council or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
- Samuel Adams |
|
|
|
n/a
deleted
85 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2007 : 18:24:15
|
| Let us all know when you are ready.........Post it on realcent's Buy, Sell, Trade. |
"The key to building wealth is to not lose money." - Warren Buffet |
|
|
|
MaDeuce
Penny Pincher Member
USA
124 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2007 : 21:17:39
|
quote:
Originally posted by tmaring
...The only real copper bullion in that sense would be to purchase full plate cathodes. These are about three feet square, a half inch thick, and weigh about 320 pounds. That makes them just a bit difficult to handle without a forklift. (also difficult to steal however!) By the way... in case you're wondering what ever happened to ingots... copper is almost never smelted anymore, it's much more energy efficient to dissolve the sulphide ores in acid or cyanide solutions and then electroplate from the pregnant solution into plates, so these "full plate cathodes" are actually the primary direct product of the mine. Typcially they grade at least 99.9% pure.
Tom, if you have any information or links that you could share on the refining process, I think it would make a great new thread. I, for one, would find it very interesting.
MaDeuce |
|
|
|
MaDeuce
Penny Pincher Member
USA
124 Posts |
Posted - 12/18/2007 : 21:32:34
|
Copperbullion,
First of all, welcome to realcent. There are a lot of knowledgeable people here, and all of use will enjoy hearing about your progress.
I have a few questions/comments... First of all, please don't take anything I say as a negative, or that I am suggesting you shouldn't proceed. I'm just trying to understand...
I really don't understand this market. I am watching an ebay auction as I type this for a 100 oz. copper "ingot". It really isn't an ingot -- it is a piece of copper stock that has been cut so that it weighs 100 oz. And it's pretty crude looking. But that's beside the point. With 35 minutes left in the auction, it is at $67. And there are many of these that either have been sold or are still up for auction. What I don't understand is why someone would pay in excess of $10/lb for bulk copper. And it isn't even pretty bulk copper.
So, clearly, something else is going on here. I would have assumed that the motivation for purchase would have been to get copper bullion. But that simply can't be why people are purchasing these.
So, in my long winded way, I am asking (in the "pure" marketing sense), what is the product and what is the market. It's not bullion, as it's too expensive. It's not beauty/art, as it's not pretty enough. So it has to be something in between.
If it were one of Tom's coins, I could understand it. They are pretty and well made -- I can see why people would pay a big premium for them. They are collectors items. BTW, if you haven't gone and looked at Tom's website, you should -- it's very impressive.
Copperbullion, it sounds like you envision something cuts above what I'm referring to on ebay. Maybe you are shooting at the collector market -- the same people that purchase Tom's stuff. How do you find 'em? How do you sell to 'em?
Anyway, these were the questions I had when reading this thread. What you are going to do will be interesting, so please keep us posted and send pictures!
One other question, since you are clearly not selling a product that is based on bullion value -- it's value is probably more based on its artistic value, do you fall into the "artistic use" carveout of the current regulations? In other words, can you legally melt Cu one cent pieces to make your artwork?
Good luck on your venture!
MaDeuce |
|
|
|
fiatboy
Administrator
912 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2007 : 01:45:35
|
There is an underground market of people who collect bullion. Not numismatic stuff. Just bullion. They're also insanely bullish on metals. They're probably the ones on ebay buying up all the ugly copper "ingots." (ugly copper? that's impossible!)
Pamp Suisse? Got it. Engelhard? Got it. A-Mark? Got it. Ugly ebay copper chunk? NO! I must buy it now! ahhhh!!!! That's their line of thinking.
haha. Those poor bullion collectors. Shunned by numismatists. Misunderstood by the bullion crowd. And we, the penny sorters, thought we were the outcasts? 
They must have deep pockets, though. Those ebay prices are astounding. |
"Bart, it's not about how many stocks you have, it's about how much copper wire you can get out of the building." --- Homer Simpson |
|
|
|
copperbullion
Penny Pincher Member
Australia
136 Posts |
Posted - 12/19/2007 : 06:46:47
|
Yes the prices are crazy! But I must admit that even I have bought a Jetco bar... + postage to Australia  |
|
|
|
copperbullion
Penny Pincher Member
Australia
136 Posts |
Posted - 01/04/2008 : 23:20:58
|
| The 1 ounce ingot will hopefully have a collectors appeal to them as well. Maybe they can be sold in tourist type shops as well. As for the 1 kilo bars, I have no idea why they sell for so much, but they always seem too! |
Edited by - copperbullion on 01/04/2008 23:22:59 |
|
|
|
tmaring
Penny Collector Member
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2008 : 12:18:30
|
One idea about metals is to incorporate them into your lifestyle instead of just hoarding them in bars. So for instance... if you enjoy owning silver, then why not actually purchase and USE sterling flatware and drinking vessels! Silver is said to have antibacterial properties so that it is not only a way to own and enjoy silver, but has health benefits as well. Similarly, copper can be incorporated into the home by using copper plumbing wherever possible, and using solid copper fixtures (knobs, hinges, coat-racks etc.) instead of cheap crappy pot-metal.
In an effort towards this end, about a year go I began making solid copper cabinet knobs. I struck a one-troy-ounce copper "coin" using one of about twelve different top designs. The back designs are uniform, specifying the name of my mint, the town where I live, and the moniker "solid copper". The back design incorporates a circular groove in the center that is uses to center a tubular copper standoff, which is silver-soldered in place, with a threaded steel nut in the base for the standard 10-32 mounting screw.
The designs I currently have made face dies for are: The Gate, The King, Sun-Ra, Helios, The Rabbit, The Walking Pig, The Sitting Pig, The Tiger, The Conquistador, Ivy Leaves, The Leaping Bass, The Argonnath, the Yuletide Village, and the Scottie Dog.
I also have many of these that have been left unsoldered as simple bullion coins. They actually weigh a little over a troy ounce, more like 35 grams.
The problem is, I have not had much luck breaking into the (highly competitive) cabinet hardware market. But there is VERY little out there that is actually made of solid copper, much less power forged to shape. Almost everything "copper" that is commercially available is just copper plated cast crap metal. If I can figure out how to post pictures here I could show some of the designs. |
Tom Maringer
Shire Post Mint
Springdale, Arkansas |
|
|
|
copperbullion
Penny Pincher Member
Australia
136 Posts |
Posted - 01/05/2008 : 17:07:03
|
Hi Tom, If you email me the photos, I'll happily host them on my site for you. Then I can show you how to show the pictures here.
(paul@ozcopper.com) |
|
|
|
tmaring
Penny Collector Member
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2008 : 12:11:59
|
Okay, I'll give it a try to see if this works. This is the "Sitting Pig" design. It is 1 5/8" diameter, struck in a collar to bring up the distinct rim, and make it perfectly circular. The reverse side is the same for many of my copper pieces of this same diameter.
(note a diagonal zone of "weakness" (rough surface not fully struck) going from lower right to upper left on the back side. This is a result of the extremely high relief obverse sucking up metal. This was struck at a force of 150 tons. Some later ones struck at 170 tons solved the weakness problem.) |
Tom Maringer
Shire Post Mint
Springdale, Arkansas |
Edited by - tmaring on 01/07/2008 12:21:37 |
|
|
|
tmaring
Penny Collector Member
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2008 : 12:15:56
|
I guess that works! Here's another I call "the King" (same as the above on the back). Let's see if anybody can figure out what it represents and what the inscriptions mean! All these are made from the same basic 35 gram copper blank.
 |
Tom Maringer
Shire Post Mint
Springdale, Arkansas |
Edited by - tmaring on 01/07/2008 12:17:53 |
|
|
|
fiatboy
Administrator
912 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2008 : 13:45:28
|
| Wonderful pictures! I'm pretty sure the language is Elvish from the Lord of the Rings. I'm a fan of Tolkien's essays and translations, but I've never read any of his fiction. I'll post back if I can translate it. I know Old and Middle English, but this looks altogether different. Hope it's based on English! |
"Bart, it's not about how many stocks you have, it's about how much copper wire you can get out of the building." --- Homer Simpson |
|
|
|
tmaring
Penny Collector Member
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2008 : 15:01:39
|
quote:
Originally posted by fiatboy
Wonderful pictures! I'm pretty sure the language is Elvish from the Lord of the Rings. I'm a fan of Tolkien's essays and translations, but I've never read any of his fiction. I'll post back if I can translate it. I know Old and Middle English, but this looks altogether different. Hope it's based on English!
Good guess! Tolkien's "tengwar" is a phonetic syllabary, so any spoken language can be written in it. This is written in an ancient "high" consonantal mode in which the vowel sounds are left out (similar to the latin inscriptions on old British coins). You may be able to coax out the syllables, but unless you've read his fiction, you'll have a hard time making meaning out of them. It's not English.
The most techically innovative part on this die was the use of a knurl (toothed roller) to impress the dentilations around the rim. (rather than cutting them with a graver) I was a bit skeptical that it would even work at all, but I was quite pleased by the evenness and depth of the result.
|
Tom Maringer
Shire Post Mint
Springdale, Arkansas |
|
|
|
Ardent Listener
Administrator
USA
4841 Posts |
Posted - 01/07/2008 : 16:39:14
|
| Tmaring, I noticed that the store at your site is closed. Any plans to reopen it in the near future? |
Realcent.forumco.com disclosure. Please read.
All posts either by the members, moderators, and the administration of http://realcent.forumco.com are for your edification and amusement only. It is not the intent of realcent.forumco.com or its host to provide investment, medical, matrimonial, legal, security or tax advice and nothing posted here should be considered to be so. All rights reserved.
Think positive. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
1 Ounce fine copper ingot?
Forum Locked
