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Market Harmony
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1274 Posts |
 Posted - 02/17/2010 : 06:44:26
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Everyone has there own theories on what numismatic coins are best for collecting. It always seem to boil down to, "collect what you like." I fully agree with this statement. But, if you're anything like me, you like everything 
I especially like the Morgan Dollars. It is one of the most challenging series to collect because of the number of coins, wide interest, and scarcity of a few specific coins. I'll probably never complete the collection, but I'll always like trying. I like to get MS coins, but I have to settle every once in a while as I get priced out of some grades. 95% of my Morgan collection is high AU or MS grade. The others that are lower grades are just filling space until their replacement finds it's way into my hands. Like I said, I'll probably never finish collecting the whole series.
As I was thinking about this, it occurred to me that I collect these coins because I enjoy it, but I also consider them to be an investment. At some point in far future I'd like to sell these for a profit. In order for this to happen, I'll need a ready and able buyer. But, who knows what type of coin will be popular then? So, that's my question... what to collect? More specifically, what collectible coins are the best investment?
- Gold, Silver or Copper?
- $20, $10, $5, $2.5, $1, $.50, $.25, $.10, $.05, or $.01?
- Late 1700's, first half 1800's, second half 1800's, first half 1900's, or 1950 to date?
- Common dates/mints or key dates?
- Well known or obscure errors?
- Grades 35 and up, or only MS coins?
Yes, yes.... collect what you like. BUT, if you were invest $1 million in coins, as a complete outsider to the hobby- only looking to make a buck, what would you buy? Would you buy one expensive coin or would you spread it around and buy several less expensive?
My personal opinion is to buy the best possible professionally graded examples of key dates in the most available series:
1884-S, 1889-CC & 1893-S Morgan Dollar
1934-S Peace Dollar
1921-D & 1921-S Walking Liberty Half Dollar
1953-S FBL Franklin Half Dollar
1916 full head Standing Liberty Quarter
1932-D & 1932-S Washington Quarter
1916-D Mercury Dime
1916/16 & 1937-D (3 leg) Buffalo Nickels
1877 & 1909-S Indian Head Cent
1909-S VDB, 1914-D, 1922 no D, & 1955/55 Wheat Cents
No, I do not have anything close to $1 million... this is just hypothetical thinking. What if YOU had $1 million and wanted to invest it into coins for 5 to 10 years... what would you buy and why?
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kirkland
New Member
USA
0 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2010 : 06:54:18
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Great great question, and everyone will have different answers to this. I say that it is your choice what you want to collect, like you said, but I really agree that Morgan Silver dollars are the best coins to buy if you are looking to find value in metal content and numismatic value. I think key dates and commons are great, and the best ones to find are the ones in MS-64 or even higher.
Copper is more just for bullion value, and I would only obtain it through hoarding copper cents. Any type of silver is a great buy except maybe commemoratives or bullion bars.
I would spread the $1 million out, if I had it, by diversifying it with copper, gold, and silver. |
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rodebaugh
Penny Collector Member
USA
377 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2010 : 07:42:43
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I agree Kirkland. Morgan dollars, but only pcgs or ngc certified. Also, with that purchasing power, good deals are sure to be had on volume buys. |
http://rodebaugh.ecrater.com/ |
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kirkland
New Member
USA
0 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2010 : 07:49:54
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Right. NGC is probably the best and PCGS comes second. ANACS is not one to go with, as I've heard of flaws in their grading.
My favorite coins are actually Barbers, especially the quarters. Morgans are the most collectible coins and I like them a lot, but I love Barbers. I wish I could find those for face value! |
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Kurr
1000+ Penny Miser Member
2906 Posts |
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rodebaugh
Penny Collector Member
USA
377 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2010 : 10:30:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Kurr
I have heard every good portfolio of numismatics should contain at least 1 ms64 or higher st gaudens.
I have never heard this before, but I think it sounds really good Kurr. I will put that on my 2010 to do list.
My Dealer (COIN that is) set down with me a few years back and examined the greysheet and picked approximately 10 Morgans that were value buys in certain grades. The theme he explained is: the grade that is affordable to the masses and is at least 1/3rd the price to the next highest grade(no bid secert here). The masses differs in meaning but I loosely define it as 100-300 non-key, 200-600 semi key, 500-up key as rough guidelines for Morgans. From there work the price guides and prices realized @ auction and make an informed solid purchase.
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Kurr
1000+ Penny Miser Member
2906 Posts |
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silvernut1
New Member
USA
18 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2010 : 18:12:51
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My two cents (no pun intended):
If an outsider were looking to invest $1M in coins with the sole purpose of trading them for a profit, the key question to ask is what is the risk tolerance and the time horizon.
If the risk tolerance is high, and the time horizon is medium to short range, I would invest in highly "liquid" silver bullion (Eagles, Maple Leafs, Pandas). I am a silver bug and believe that silver will outperform other metals in the short to mid range horizon.
I think it holds the best chance of returning a profit in the short to mid term.
For long-rang investments, the person may consider a narrow list of very rare and key coins that they can pack into a safety deposit box and forget about for a long time.
The numismatic value of the coins should outlast any increases and decreases in base metal price and perform over the long term better than the base metal.
again, just my two cents :)
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Silver-Nut |
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daviscfad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1664 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2010 : 18:23:05
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| I say there all gambles b/c it will only be worth what someone pays you when your ready to sell. I have to run but i will be back with more of what i think |
Inquiring minds want to know |
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bman
Penny Collector Member
USA
425 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2010 : 19:43:27
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I collect coins but not as an investment, just for fun/enjoyment. Hopefully if I ever do sell my collection I won't lose money but I don't expect to retire from it either.
If I had $1 million dollars to spend on coins it would be higher grade colonial copper coins.
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daviscfad
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1664 Posts |
Posted - 02/17/2010 : 21:23:22
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quote:
I collect coins but not as an investment, just for fun/enjoyment. Hopefully if I ever do sell my collection I won't lose money but I don't expect to retire from it either.
Bman hit it on the head IMHO. I Love high grade coins but not a lot of people have the funds to drop on a high grade 1893s morgan or any other key date for that matter. i think if your looking investment you have to think liquidation. Its easier to get rid of something you might pay 50 for and can sell for 100 in a few years than it is to pay 1000 for and try and sell for 1500, just b/c more people can shell out 100 faster than they can 1500. This makes me think about when we were at the coin show. Slickeast and I were walking around and we came across a 1972 Type 2 Ike graded PCGS MS 66 or 67. So i asked the guy how much he wanted for it and he said something like 2500. My jaw about hit the floor. I mean i know thats its hard to find Ike's in a high grade but I dont see a lot of people paying that for a clad Ike. So in my opinion if i bought it, would i be able to get my money back if i were to sell? I mean in 10 years it might be selling for 5000, but i will have to find a buyer. I like bman dont expect to retire off my coins, but I also dont plan on selling most of it either. So I would say try to buy what you can at good prices. And that dont mean try to be as cheap as you can when your trying to buy but just look for good deals. Remember those two Ngc graded 1999s Close AM's i bought for 55.00? Well i sold one for 175.00 and had an offer on the other one for 300, but i would rather keep one for myself. |
Inquiring minds want to know |
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Market Harmony
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1274 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2010 : 07:47:38
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quote:
Originally posted by daviscfad
... Remember those two Ngc graded 1999s Close AM's i bought for 55.00? Well i sold one for 175.00 and had an offer on the other one for 300, but i would rather keep one for myself.
That was a great move. Basically, you made some money and got a free coin. Sweet!
The rest of your response was a well thought-out guide for the majority of coin collectors. Rodebaugh also shared a very good guide for choosing which grade for different coins may offer the best return. I would recommend both posts to people asking questions about typical coin purchases.
What would a guy with a million bucks to invest want to buy? Remember, he doesn't care about coins or the hobby. He simply wants to buy a good 5-year opportunity and sell it. He doesn't want to study numismatics or build a collection. He just wants to make a profit.
FYI: I recently saw a raw study on coin collecting as a hobby that shows a typical 5.7% return per year. So, if you spend $1 million today, then in 5 years it should be worth $1.32 million.
Also, I found You must be logged in to see this link. VERY interesting. It's the story of a guy with a passion for rare coins that made millions, owned sports teams, and then lost it all as hubris and greed caught up with him. |
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Copper Catcher
Administrator
USA
2092 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2010 : 08:58:06
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**This will likely repeat some of what has been said already.
However, I think in answering this question you have to also think about two things in general i.e. what coins will be in constant demand and by whom. Buying coins for the strict investment and buying coins for the enjoyment can be two very different goals!
Would you rather have a million dollars in lower grade key dates versus high grade key dates? In answering that question you have to know if you are concerned about price points or not. Meaning, are you willing to limit your audience of buyers or do you want to have a wider appeal to the masses? How many people do you know can afford to buy one $10,000 coin?
Also, if you are in the US then you tend to think US versus globally. However, in the next ten years what country or countries do you think will have the most wealthy and what coins do you think they might be interested in? What are the millionaires in China or Japan buying and why? |
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just carl
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
601 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2010 : 13:00:24
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All spoken like truely overly Numismatically collectors of coins.
ME, with one million dollars and being rather on the old side, I'd be sitting in the Bahamas or somewhere similar, beautiful girls fanning me with palm leaves and dropping frozen grapes in my mouth.
I'd give my entire present collection to some young kid that is interested in coins and just walk away.
I know a million dollars isn't what it used to be but for the time I've got left on Earth, I really don't want to think about investing for tomorrow.
Coins are a hobby and I just collect them since I like them all. |
Carl |
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fasteddy
Penny Collector Member
USA
298 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2010 : 15:43:07
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One Million dollars for coins....hmmm...how about the aluminum cent on the other thread....nice for about 150 g's or so....the rarer the better....the best always goes up the most.
I prefer NGC graded coins and minimum MS66...I know some of that stuff is pricey but look at the difference between MS-65 and MS-66 and if I can swing a perfect coin then I am on it.
I ONLY consider NGC or PCGS forget the others I have bought them in MS-66 or better grades and I moved them on because they were poorly graded...I had one MS-70 ASE that had a scratch on the dress I think that was an ICI or something similar...I broke it out and stuck it with the rest of my bullion ASE's....and If there was any more money left I would buy 4 Glory WS-10's...so I could roll zincs and become a two brick member! |
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thogey
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1617 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2010 : 20:32:38
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I would pay my debt off, invest $100,000 in gold quarter eagles $100,000 in ASE's. %100,000 in junk 90%. That's my retirement.
I would then buy a few million wheats maybe half a million indians, $50,000 in 40% halves and war nickles.
I would then deposit them in the banks in the cities where ya'll live and watch this forum with a big smile on my face. |
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Edited by - thogey on 02/18/2010 20:34:25 |
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bman
Penny Collector Member
USA
425 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2010 : 20:38:48
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| I guess if I had to spend $1 million on coins as an investment I would buy MS graded/certified type coins like 2 cent, 3 cent, 20 cent etc... |
check out my coins for sale on ecrater : http://bmanscoinsforsale.ecrater.com/ |
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Market Harmony
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1274 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2010 : 20:45:06
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quote:
Originally posted by thogey
...I would then buy a few million wheats maybe half a million indians, $50,000 in 40% halves and war nickles.
I would then deposit them in the banks in the cities where ya'll live and watch this forum with a big smile on my face.
FYI, I live just little north of Pittsburgh  |
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Market Harmony
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1274 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2010 : 20:46:30
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quote:
Originally posted by just carl
...I'd be sitting in the Bahamas or somewhere similar, beautiful girls fanning me with palm leaves and dropping frozen grapes in my mouth...
I like this idea, but I fear that the girls would be fanning away the stink... grapes give me gas  |
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Market Harmony
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
1274 Posts |
Posted - 02/18/2010 : 21:07:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Copper Catcher
... are you willing to limit your audience of buyers or do you want to have a wider appeal to the masses? How many people do you know can afford to buy one $10,000 coin?
Also, if you are in the US then you tend to think US versus globally. However, in the next ten years what country or countries do you think will have the most wealthy and what coins do you think they might be interested in? What are the millionaires in China or Japan buying and why?
I think that would have to be a good bit of strategy when selling high $$$ coins. For example, the word was out that one of those ultra rare 1913 nickels was going to be auctioned by Heritage at the FUN show far in advance. There was quite a bit of marketing involved and buyers had to arrange for their bidders. The coin eventually sold for $3.73 million. And this in one of the worst economic times, ever. The buyers are out there, and they will put up some cash for the right coin. Letting them know about it is the key. If the coin wasn't advertised in advance, there would be far fewer bidders.
I don't know if there would be a huge following for an auction that had many mid-tier coins... there's no concrete answer to this question, I suppose.
Regarding the global question... I think that is a very good point to consider. I placed some long term bets on Indian Rupees from late 1800's and early 1900's. I was in Delhi last year and commissioned a young entrepreneur to go out and get me old Indian coins. I told him that it didn't matter much what type they were; only that they were real and that I preferred silver. I returned to his shop (hand-made jewelry and carved wooden elephants) the next day and he delivered 10 different date rupees in various states of wear. I ooed and awed the coins then picked out 2 silver bangles from his display and before he quoted me a price I handed him a $100 bill. I just barely overpaid based on spot. If you've ever been to India, then you know that what he was able to do overnight was no small task. That was the happiest coin dealer I've ever dealt with . I don't know who was happier, me with the old silver Ruppees or him with his Benjamin Franklin paper
I've also got some South African gold laying around here somewhere  |
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Edited by - Market Harmony on 02/18/2010 21:10:39 |
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Junk Woody
Penny Collector Member
Canada
262 Posts |
Posted - 02/19/2010 : 17:07:20
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I'd have to think for a while to come up with a list of my million dollar dream collection.
If I could spend a million dollars on one coin I would pick this one
I can't remember if it can be bought for only 1 mil though?
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beauanderos
1000+ Penny Miser Member
USA
2408 Posts |
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garnede
Penny Collector Member
USA
386 Posts |
Posted - 02/21/2010 : 16:44:38
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| I would spend some of it buying all of the halves in town and keep them, just so I don't keep searching the same coins, maybe I would send them to one of your towns just for the fun of it. Then I would buy several ryedales, coin counters/wrappers and sort 1/2 mil in pennies. Then I would see how many MS condition full sets of coin types/denominations that I can. |
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nologiks
Penny Sorter Member
83 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2010 : 01:46:46
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500,000 in silver coin/bullion
250,000 in gold coin/bullion
I agree with garnede and buy 30 ryedales
--Hire some part time help
---contact brinks for shipments for .25 mil in pennies
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ScottyTX
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
508 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2010 : 22:28:24
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Humm, restricting my response to numismatic coins only. I always had the belief the rarer the better and they need to be graded by PCGS. The above posts do have me thinking a bit about marketing higher profile coins and such, but I believe with the rare coins, simply the right auction house and some advertisement would provide a good return. Thats provided the market is going up. Ahh, a good thread for thinking on a slow work night :) Thanks!!
Scott |
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Flbandit
Penny Hoarding Member
USA
851 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2010 : 17:32:23
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| I have an AU-BU Franklin set that I would upgrade to MS68ish. I think they are a very under valued set. Then I would be looking to buy gold and silver coins in great shape with history to go along with them. Think The Central America, The Atocha etc. Gold Ancients are likely to do well, and I'd LOVE to have an original Maria Theresa Thaler. Another series I really like is Bust Halves. An MS set of those would be worth a few copper cents! |
Are you throwing that out? |
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Million Bucks, what coins to buy?
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